TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[TexMex]

7/18/06 Houston Chronicle

Dr. Welner testifies

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...on/4053326.html

"You're not ashamed of doing something you think is right," said Welner, testifying for the prosecution in its rebuttal phase of Yates' second capital murder trial.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl...on/4053771.html

But Welner said he found 60 examples in his examination of how Yates knew drowning 6-month-old Mary, 2-year-old Luke, 3-year-old Paul, 5-year-old John and 7-year-old Noah was wrong. She filled the tub after her husband left, he said, and removed the bath mat so that the youngsters would have no traction to try and escape.
In an excerpt of Welner's videotaped interview with Yates played for jurors, he asked why she had been more determined on that day, June 20, 2001. "I had made up my mind that I would to it. I just thought it had to be done," she said, adding that it was because of "just the prospect of them growing up to be
unrighteous."

 

[Pepper]

I think this trial is a huge waste of taxpayer money. Whether or not Andrea Yates is/was sane or insane matters not to me. She should NEVER be allowed outside a locked facility. I don't care if it is a mental institution or a prison, as long as she is never released.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I think this trial is a huge waste of taxpayer money. Whether or not Andrea Yates is/was sane or insane matters not to me. She should NEVER be allowed outside a locked facility. I don't care if it is a mental institution or a prison, as long as she is never released.

Well Pepper, even crazy people are entitled to due process.

 

[Texana]

Boneheaded?



:laugh: Definitely a more vivid and specific term than "unartful."

 

[Pepper]

Well Pepper, even crazy people are entitled to due process.

But there is no doubt that she murdered her 5 children. The thought that some psychiatrist might someday decide she is "well" enough to be released is appalling to me.

 

[jilly]

But there is no doubt that she murdered her 5 children. The thought that some psychiatrist might someday decide she is "well" enough to be released is appalling to me.

I agree Pepper. The fact that she terrorized and murdered those 5 innocent little children should be enough to lock her up forever. I don't care where she goes as long as she stays there.

 

[kato]

Just read an article in the paper that said Andrea didn't want to be the one to tell Rusty and his mom what she had done so she was hoping the police would get there 1st. That's another point to indicate that she knew exactly what she was doing was wrong. JMO She was already feeling shame.

 

[kk's mom]

I agree Pepper. The fact that she terrorized and murdered those 5 innocent little children should be enough to lock her up forever. I don't care where she goes as long as she stays there.

Lock her up (and I don't care where) and throw away the key. I can never and will never be able to get out of my mind the horror she inflicted upon HER OWN CHILDREN and the terror and dispair that they went through. Call me cruel or uncaring. I don't care.

 

[tezi]

What Andrea done is wrong. However, she was ill, seriously ill at the time. Has anyone here ever suffered from Post Partum Depression? Post Partum Psychosis? I suffered from PPD so severe after my last child was born that my husband had to put me the hospital because he was scared I would harm myself. He didn't have any fear that I would harm our kids, just myself. Thank God I didn't have PPP, but my doctor said that my PPD was severe enough that he was worried that I could be psychotic. That was a real eye-opener for both my husband and me. There isn't a day that I don't thank my husband for making sure I got the proper care that I needed to be a functioning member of our family.

I think that Andrea Yates will most likely confined to a mental hosptial for the rest of her life. I also think she feels terrible for what she has done. I know I couldn't live with the guilt if someone I loved drowned accidently when I was around. Let alone being responsible for someone drowning. That would make me want to kill myself. She carries more guilt than anyone knows about. Unlike Rusty, who should also be held responsible. He knew she was sick, but yet didn't do anything else about it.

And don't even get me started on the doctor.....He should lose his license.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

What Andrea done is wrong. However, she was ill, seriously ill at the time. Has anyone here ever suffered from Post Partum Depression? Post Partum Psychosis? I suffered from PPD so severe after my last child was born that my husband had to put me the hospital because he was scared I would harm myself. He didn't have any fear that I would harm our kids, just myself. Thank God I didn't have PPP, but my doctor said that my PPD was severe enough that he was worried that I could be psychotic. That was a real eye-opener for both my husband and me. There isn't a day that I don't thank my husband for making sure I got the proper care that I needed to be a functioning member of our family.

I think that Andrea Yates will most likely confined to a mental hosptial for the rest of her life. I also think she feels terrible for what she has done. I know I couldn't live with the guilt if someone I loved drowned accidently when I was around. Let alone being responsible for someone drowning. That would make me want to kill myself. She carries more guilt than anyone knows about. Unlike Rusty, who should also be held responsible. He knew she was sick, but yet didn't do anything else about it.

And don't even get me started on the doctor.....He should lose his license.

I only had baby blues and they went away after a couple of weeks. I was lucky. Regardless of whether she's found guilty or not, she'll spend her life in a hospital. She becomes suicidal when she gets even the slighest bit better, so she's not ever stable enough to be in the regular prison.

 

[Garnan]

I don't really care WHY she did it. What she subjected those children to is too horrible to even comprehend. It is a shame she can't get the death penalty. Mentally Ill? I don't care. Tie her to a gurney and get the needle.

Failing that, lock her up and throw away the key. PPP???? Is that it???? It's been years since she gave birth. Is this a lifelong "illness". She doesn't belong in a psych ward with others who are working on their problems, and managed NOT to brutally murder 5 little kids.

I have no sympathy for her what-so-ever.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't really care WHY she did it. What she subjected those children to is too horrible to even comprehend. It is a shame she can't get the death penalty. Mentally Ill? I don't care. Tie her to a gurney and get the needle.

Failing that, lock her up and throw away the key. PPP???? Is that it???? It's been years since she gave birth. Is this a lifelong "illness". She doesn't belong in a psych ward with others who are working on their problems, and managed NOT to brutally murder 5 little kids.

I have no sympathy for her what-so-ever.

If it doesn't get treated, yes. Mental illness will remain for life. It, like cancer or any other disease, doesn't go away all by itself.

 

[Garnan]

I find it hard to believe that having a baby or 5 can make you mentally ill for the rest of your life. I just don't buy it. & she has had treatment.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I find it hard to believe that having a baby or 5 can make you mentally ill for the rest of your life. I just don't buy it. & she has had treatment.

Well you'll believe what you want to believe, but her entire wiring is out of whack. If you've seen pictures of her and read about what she was like before the PPP began, its easy to see that she's an entirely different person. Mental illness can strike anyone at any time and there's no way to determine who is at risk. Being pregnant is very hard on a woman's system. Perhaps she is one of those women who should never have had children. Regardless, she was advised to STOP having them and because of her husband and her religeon, she continued against medical advice. If you have a disease, that disease must be treated. I'm not sure why you would think it should just go away on its own. Most of them do not. Infections, cancer, mental illness, etc. NEED to be treated. Her treatment was never completed and add to that the baby after baby after baby and what you're left with is a lunatic.

 

[Texana]

I find it hard to believe that having a baby or 5 can make you mentally ill for the rest of your life. I just don't buy it. & she has had treatment.

She already had the genetic predisposition for mental illness. Hormonal inbalances from pregnancy triggered the mental illness. Hormone balances change with men and women over time as well so even dosages that work for awhile or certain meds that were effective can change.

People who are psychotic have to remain on medication for the rest of their lives just as diabetics take insulin.

 

[JanPat]

Thanks, Jeana, Texana, and others for being a voice of reason. Pepper & Garnan, I was where you are a couple of years ago myself. Until my daughter's bipolar disorder reared it's ugly head at the ripe old age of 8 two years ago, I was right there with you. I didn't see how Andrea could possibly have not known what she was doing and not known right from wrong. I'm now embarassed to say that during her first trial I was all for the death penalty.

Having experienced my daughter's rage attacks I now see that it IS possible for someone to be two completely different people. My daughter's rages have been violent enough that police have been called--fortunately no one has chosen to press charges. When she's in rage mode, she truly doesn't know what she's doing. The best she's been able to describe it is a black hole in her mind where she doesn't know what's going on or what's going to happen next. When she comes out of the rages, it's like falling off a cliff. Her body goes completely limp--enough so that she seems to have passed out. When she wakes up, looks around, and sees the havoc she's wrought (overturned desks, bite marks on someone's arm, etc) then the self-loathing kicks in. It's heartbreaking to hear your child say-and mean-she wishes she'd never been born because the world would be better off without her.

As I mentioned in a previous post, she's been under Dr. Saeed's care for the past year & a half. A combination of 4 medications has controlled the rages and the runaway thoughts. They haven't completely subsided, but they've toned down to where they're manageable. My next fear is what happens when puberty hits, the hormones kick in, and we have to go through an entire re-adjustment of the medicine regimen.

Seeing my child's rapid descent into mental illness and the slow progression in returning to some semblance of health has convinced me that Andrea's case is frighteningly possible. I agree with most--she'll never be well and should be in a mental hospital for life--but I've certainly changed my point of view from the first to the second trial.

 

[TexMex]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4057682.html

Dr. Phillip Resnick, who interviewed Yates twice after her children's deaths and also reviewed other psychiatrists' interviews with her, said Yates believed she had ruined her children and that they would grow up to sin and then be sent to hell.

She believed she could save their souls if she killed them before they reached age 10, which she considered the age of responsibility, Resnick said.

He said Yates believed that John, 5, would become a serial killer.

"Another son would grow up to be a mute, homosexual prostitute,'' Resnick said.

He said she believed she had beaten Satan in the battle for their souls because they would go to heaven.

Yates' religious beliefs, he said, were the ``trellis'' on which her delusions grew. She believed, he said, that she had caused her children to stumble and Satan wanted them in hell.

"Mrs. Yates began to believe that not only was Satan tormenting her, but tormented her children,'' Resnick said. "She believed that Satan would have her children.''

After the deaths, she believed that she would be punished and executed by the state of Texas, the only entity that could destroy Satan, he testified.

 

[TexMex]

She already had the genetic predisposition for mental illness. Hormonal inbalances from pregnancy triggered the mental illness. Hormone balances change with men and women over time as well so even dosages that work for awhile or certain meds that were effective can change.

People who are psychotic have to remain on medication for the rest of their lives just as diabetics take insulin.

True...the birth of #5 after a doctor warned that it WOULD trigger another bout of psychosis...then the death of her father sent her into a rapid downhill spiral. The she's taken off the only med that ever helped her and put on one that causes 'homocidal ideations' in some cases :banghead:

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

True...the birth of #5 after a doctor warned that it WOULD trigger another bout of psychosis...then the death of her father sent her into a rapid downhill spiral. The she's taken off the only med that ever helped her and put on one that causes 'homocidal ideations' in some cases :banghead:

I've been on Effexor. While it's designed for severe depression or obessessive complusive disorder, it's not really designed for someone with schizophrenia. She should have been on Haldol or something equally potent.

I weaned myself off Effexor after experiencing very vivid and distrubing nightmares. I was a little off-kilter for a few days, which had to do more with shaking off the emotional numbing the medication was doing. Not all serotonin imbalances are genetic/permanent. If you get you serotonin balanced and your body is making it again in normal amounts, the medication will create an overdose effect (which can damage your ability to create serotonin naturally after awhile) and you start feeling emotionally numbed instead of feeling better and the horrific nightmares kick in. So, oddly, that's a sign of getting "better", at least physically.

As it is, the medication can only help you so far if you don't address the underlying cause for the depression. The medication only treats the symptopms, not the root cause for the depression. Depression is basically anger turned inward instead of expressed normally/naturally. The depression will continue to build/wprsen until one of three things happen
1) the patient gets help and/or addresses the root cause of the depression
2) the patient kills themselves rather than address the root cause of the depression
3) the patient's self preservation kicks in and they finally, at the latest possible stage, attack and/or kill what they perceive to be the cause of their misery in order to keep from killing themselves (whether they're conscious of that thought process or not).

Personally, I think she really wanted to kill Rusty, but she was too cowed/indoctrinated to try it. And I think she tried killing herself those times because she was trying to prevent what eventually happened, whether the victim(s) were the kids or Rusty or anyone else close to her.

 

[TexMex]

Hi Billygoat...good to see you again.

Thanks for that post. Very interesting.