TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[NaNaRosebud]

southernpixie: I am sorry for your illness and the way it makes y0ou feel. However, it sounds like you have more than just post-partum depression.

My question: Don't women who get PPD eventually recover from it and start loving their baby and feeling normal without the medication. If a lifelong sentence of taking meds for PPD were the case, everyone who ever had a child would be on meds.

Andrea was with herself enough to do these murders at a time when no one was there to stop her. If she was insane, IMO, she would have snapped all at once and started killing them no matter what time it was. This was planned and thought out. She had filled the tub once before and timed how long it would take to drown all of them before the day that she actually DID it. She planned how long it would take and the method of doing it. I dont think insanity overides the planning part. She coldbloodiedly killed her children. I think she was tired of taking care of them and Rusty and wanted a way out and she saw killing the kids as her way out of the situation. This stuff about "saving them" from the devil was all made up after she got a lawyer.

 

[southernpixie]

southernpixie, i'm so sorry to hear of your troubles but so glad you are doing better. Your post hits home what many here have been trying to point out. When Andrea's doctor took her off Haldol (I think that's the one), he took her off it 'cold turkey' rather than tapering her slowly over a period of time. He stopped her medication (I'll have to look it up to be sure) about a week or so prior to the murders. I think that is what pushed her over the edge.

Thanks Jules and to you, too, Close Enough. I have learned (TRUST ME) that I will never let that happen again. Fortunately, I have a wonderful psychiatrist that from Oct I had to see every week (same questions over and over and over) and then 2 weeks then a month and now he doesn't want to see me until end of March. I was so excited! Rest assured though that I have his pager number and phone number for the mental facility should I need a break.

Yes, I believe it was Haladol that she was on and abruptly taken off of. I can't understand why that was allowed to happen. My only thought is that all of this was happening when just a little info/research was really coming out about Depression, Bi-polar I and II, rapid cycling, schizo-affective disorder and schizophrenia. What's worse is that there isn't one partiular drug that helps. Lithium was the first and still is great but is used in combination with other drugs for maximum effect. I, myself, am on 3. I have to take 8 horse pills a night before bed (YUCK!) If Halodol didn't work why wasn't somehthing else immediately tried? Lithium is one of the drugs that I am on and I have a very dear friend that cracks me up! She is so supportive but FREAKED OUT when she found out I was taking Lithium. She told me that she always new I was crazy but that it was now indeed certifiable. HAHA What a stigma with that drug. Anyhow, with other dieases (High cholesterol, diabetes, etc) the choice of drugs is limited. With mental health there are so many choices and combinations - surely there was something that could have and would have helped her.

No, I certainly do not stand here and say, "Poor Andrea, she killed her children and I feel sorry for her" What I do say is that there were reasons. I do not feel sorry for her that she killed her children but I do blame the doctor's, the family, the husband in particular and consider them all to be contributing factors to the deaths of those children. Absolutely everyone of them should have been put on trial with Andrea.

 

[southernpixie]

southernpixie: I am sorry for your illness and the way it makes y0ou feel. However, it sounds like you have more than just post-partum depression.

My question: Don't women who get PPD eventually recover from it and start loving their baby and feeling normal without the medication. If a lifelong sentence of taking meds for PPD were the case, everyone who ever had a child would be on meds.

Andrea was with herself enough to do these murders at a time when no one was there to stop her. If she was insane, IMO, she would have snapped all at once and started killing them no matter what time it was. This was planned and thought out. She had filled the tub once before and timed how long it would take to drown all of them before the day that she actually DID it. She planned how long it would take and the method of doing it. I dont think insanity overides the planning part. She coldbloodiedly killed her children. I think she was tired of taking care of them and Rusty and wanted a way out and she saw killing the kids as her way out of the situation. This stuff about "saving them" from the devil was all made up after she got a lawyer.

No - I don't have PPD - I am Bi-Polar I with rapid-cycling

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Is that fair Jeana? Some people have their opinions and post them on this forum knowing they don't have to go into lengthy details about why they feel the way they do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You shouldn't tell a person that if they don't want to discuss something that maybe they shouldn't post here. That's ridiculous.

Well its a discussion forum, right? If someone doesn't want to discuss a certain topic what's the purpose of contining to do so simply to be frustrated?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't think I said that "she" wants a second chance. She's getting a second chance with a new trial, whether she wanted it or not. Did she deserve it? Not in my books. My own opinion though. Please respect that as much as I respect yours.

What basically will happen is that she'll be moved from the prison psychiatric hospital to a state run psychiatric hospital if she's found not guilty by reason of insanity. There most likely will never be freedom for her. I don't know enough about the two to be able to compare them, but I have to think that they'd both be hell on earth. She'll never be free. The more therapy she gets and the more the meds work on her, the more she'll realize the horror of what she's done. She'll be suicidal and she'll hate herself and what she's done every day of her life whether she's in prison or in the state run hospital. What could be worse than that?

 

[southernpixie]

I meant to point that out as well Jeana. Currently, if she isn't medicated there isn't much thought about killing the children. She may think about it but doesn't have the emotional capacity to get the full effect of what she has done. With medication she will think more clearly and "feel" exactly what has happened. Further to that, being in a hospital will not give her the opportunity to kill herself and she will have to live with it forever. IMO

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana,

I do understand what you're saying.Andrea had many deep rooted mental problems,that were escalating,until she snapped.

I'm surprised,in her warped sense of thinking,she didn't just kill herself,thinking she was a bad mother,and by killing herself,her husband would re-marry,and find a more suitable mother for the children. But alas .... who can read the mind of someone who is in the depths of dispair?

Don't get me going on her ex-husband! I don't think he's all that right in the mind either!

I agree.

 

[Socks]

If you go to the yates kids website, there are PDF files of her med records that are available for all to read.

Nowhere in those files does she state ever that she has feelings of wanting to kill her children. I feel that is because she didn't want to be stopped.


MOO

I am willing to discuss this case, just not willing to feel mercy for this woman. My apologies.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I was being sarcastic...sorta..meaning that she was so psychotic in her condition that she was unable to do for herslef, but she was able to come up with a plan and carry it out.

2 years she had thoughts to kill her kids. 2 years....silence...
She couldn't talk or bathe herself but she could premeditate and time when the murders should occur. She knew how and how long she had.

What I asked for was data or some type of evidence that proves that people who are in a psychotic episode like Andrea supposedly was are able to plan and plot murder for 2 years?

I could maybe buy the BS if it was a spur of the moment decision..or even a few weeks..but 2 years..

I don't think she "planned" it for 2 years.. I think she probably thought about it a couple of times and obviously was still sane enough to know better.

But the voices, the psychosis (The definition of Psychosis is "Loss of contact with reality") and the delusions (the definition of delusion is "False beliefs") worsened (Again- as I stated before, mental illness is a progressive disease).

As her illness progressed she was no longer sane enough to know better.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Not according to her med records. No mention of homicidal thoughts or hallucinations dictating she murder her children.

It is awful that after her suicide attempts and continuing SI that the hospitals she was in did not contact child protective services, isn't it?

 

[OneLostGrl]

Hey Michelle - I guess that is kinda the point. No one can explain, convince or sway the other side to understand the other's point of view.

One thing that I personally know is that some of the stinging and self-righteous words of some posters saddens me. I was one that wanted to hurt my child. I didn't - I got help and "stuck" to it. I will tell you how fast this disease progresses and one interesting fact. (For those of you that want statistics look it up your self. There are tons of websites where you can educate youself such as the National Institute for Mental Health) In October of just this past year I had to get my prescriptions filled. Well, the day got busy and I didn't. One day led to another and then another, etc. Between 5-7 days of being off my medication I was a complete wreck unbeknownst to anyone in my family. On the 6th night at 3am I went searching for any "leftover" pills that I would find in the house. You know, a leftover Vicodin from a root canal, a hydrocodone from there, etc. NONE were to be found. Finally, I put garbage bags in the bathtub and decided to slit my wrists. There wasn't a damn sharp knife in the house. At some point through all of this my husband came to my rescue, so to speak. Obviously, I went to my psychiatrist the next day. He explained to me the very fact that once you do start medication and go off it is like kick starting the disease all over again but at an elevated level. He wanted me in the hospital for a two day rest which I refused. Only if my husband promised to "take care of me" and ensure that I took my medication was I allowed to leave the office.

Point one - it only took 5-7 days for me to become so sick that I wanted to take my life.

Point two - once treatment is started it can not be stopped. If stopped the disease comes back with a vengeance - fast and hard and twice as bad.

I have come out to my family, my husbands family and a close circle of friends that I know will support me and help me. Some of you do nothing but reinforce the fear of speaking out to others. I know that we are talking about Andrea on this thread but she could have been me or any other number of people. It is in us. The murder was not premeditated IMO but the manifestation of some sick little voices in her head, a disease run rampant and a miltitude of other factors. I think one poster eloquently called it a "perfect storm". IMO how true and how sad

-A Brilliant madness-

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't think I said that "she" wants a second chance. She's getting a second chance with a new trial, whether she wanted it or not. Did she deserve it? Not in my books. My own opinion though. Please respect that as much as I respect yours.

Remember though- her own attorney said she is not interested in being "let off" she knows she needs to be institutionalized.

 

[OneLostGrl]

My question: Don't women who get PPD eventually recover from it and start loving their baby and feeling normal without the medication. If a lifelong sentence of taking meds for PPD were the case, everyone who ever had a child would be on meds.

"PPD- often called "the baby blues" is common, usually lasting less than 2 weeks....Postpartum Depression that is combined with lack of interest in the baby, suicidal or violent thoughts, hallucinations or bizarre behavior is considered abnormal, and treatment is needed.
Serious depression is more likely to occur in women who had a mental illness before pregnancy."
Quoted from The Merck Manual of medical information.

 

[LinasK]

When Andrea's doctor took her off Haldol (I think that's the one), he took her off it 'cold turkey' rather than tapering her slowly over a period of time. He stopped her medication (I'll have to look it up to be sure) about a week or so prior to the murders. I think that is what pushed her over the edge.

I read my hospitalization files awhile ago, and I completely agree with you, what this doctor did by d/c'ing her meds and discharging her home was criminal negligence in my book!!! :furious: In addition to Rusty forcing more kids on a woman prone to PPD and not handling home-schooling 4 alread and inable to take care of herself is also criminal!!! Why wasn't the mother-in-law there as soon as Rusty left???:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: You don't leave a mentally ill woman alone with 5 children even for a minute! There is no excuse, Rusty knew she was sick, he just chose to ignore it for his own convienience!

 

[newtv]

Southernpixie

what an amazing story and so sad u had to endure this (as I am for anyone from the mildly depressed to the top level madness.)
I absolutely know that medically her doctor was incompetent and most are even when trained.
Alot of people say to get help..has anyone ever tried to get admitted for treatment-has anyone had a depressive disorder and tried to get help.
Ask those people-it wears them out just to find the help and then to wait on the high priced professionals to be on the job and so on.
Pain does not come on time. It is in the middle of the night- its when these professionals are on holidays.
Its when there is noone home.
A mentally ill person will wait till they are allowed to hurt someone if thats stuck in their mind.
Of course she waited till she was alone to do the drownings; that shows how sick she was.
A sane person tried to hang on one more hour when troubled.
This woman was cycling into madness on a regular basis and noone knew how to help her.
The ignorance in the area of mental illness in North America is outrageous.
A person fighting depression is fighting just as hard as a cancer patient. The only differnce is the cancer patient gets flowers and cards and visitors.
The depressed person gets none of that as they fight.
Insurance companies discriminate against the mentally ill as well.
On and on it goes.
I know this well-its my profession.

 

[southernpixie]

newtv - so nice to see someone that is in the profession and has an understanding. I have said before on this thread that when I was diagnosed 1 year ago I was in complete denial. I made fun of people that were on meds, I felt that they used it as an excuse for their behaviour. It was my primary care physician that originally diagnosed me with depression. We tried the Zoloft, Lexapro, and Zyprexa and nothing was working. For weeks she was begging me to see a psychiatrist because she flat out told me that she couldnt' help me any longer - she wasn't trained for it. (I love her for that) I asked how in the world one goes about trying to find a psychiatrist? Do you just pick up a phone call, make an appointment (if insurance allows) and hope for the best? (Unfortunately, that is what most people have to do!) She gave me the name of a Psychiatrist that she went to Duke University with and I thought "What the hell.......at this point I have nothing to lose and my life is horrible now!" My first appointment and I knew that he was the one. He was never condesending, never "how does that make you feel?", and we went step by step through my life and how this has progressed since my late teens to now which is 39. Depression was changed to Bi-Polar 1 and I am a rapid cycler. I could hardly believe what I was hearing. I was the one that used to make fun of people. In October he hinted at Schizoaffective Disorder due to the hallucinations prior to and during my suicide attempt. We agreed to wait that diagnosis out since I was off meds for a week and that could have certainly be a contributing factor.

We, too, went through all kinds of medications and combinations to try and find just the right one. Depakote, Lithium and Neurontin. I have to have blood tests every 3 months for Lithium levels and to check my liver and if he doesn't see the reports he is on the phone tracking me down!
As for the mentally ill acting out at night or when no one else is around? How simplistic and how true. Do you really think that I am going to sit on the couch in my living room and kill myself in front of my husband? Do you really think that I would have hurt my child in front of anyone? No, I would have wanted to be alone.

Okay - maybe that is just all me and I am the only crazy person on the planet. The others are just using it for an excuse.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

"PPD- often called "the baby blues" is common, usually lasting less than 2 weeks....Postpartum Depression that is combined with lack of interest in the baby, suicidal or violent thoughts, hallucinations or bizarre behavior is considered abnormal, and treatment is needed.
Serious depression is more likely to occur in women who had a mental illness before pregnancy."
Quoted from The Merck Manual of medical information.

From what I've read, Andrea suffered from post partum "psychosis" - and a RAGING case of it at that, which compared to the "baby blues" is like comparing pneumonia to a common cold.

 

[OneLostGrl]

From what I've read, Andrea suffered from post partum "psychosis" - and a RAGING case of it at that, which compared to the "baby blues" is like comparing pneumonia to a common cold.

That was the point I was trying to get across- Andrea didn't simply have "the baby blues".

 

[OneLostGrl]

newtv - so nice to see someone that is in the profession and has an understanding. I have said before on this thread that when I was diagnosed 1 year ago I was in complete denial. I made fun of people that were on meds, I felt that they used it as an excuse for their behaviour. It was my primary care physician that originally diagnosed me with depression. We tried the Zoloft, Lexapro, and Zyprexa and nothing was working. For weeks she was begging me to see a psychiatrist because she flat out told me that she couldnt' help me any longer - she wasn't trained for it. (I love her for that) I asked how in the world one goes about trying to find a psychiatrist? Do you just pick up a phone call, make an appointment (if insurance allows) and hope for the best? (Unfortunately, that is what most people have to do!) She gave me the name of a Psychiatrist that she went to Duke University with and I thought "What the hell.......at this point I have nothing to lose and my life is horrible now!" My first appointment and I knew that he was the one. He was never condesending, never "how does that make you feel?", and we went step by step through my life and how this has progressed since my late teens to now which is 39. Depression was changed to Bi-Polar 1 and I am a rapid cycler. I could hardly believe what I was hearing. I was the one that used to make fun of people. In October he hinted at Schizoaffective Disorder due to the hallucinations prior to and during my suicide attempt. We agreed to wait that diagnosis out since I was off meds for a week and that could have certainly be a contributing factor.

We, too, went through all kinds of medications and combinations to try and find just the right one. Depakote, Lithium and Neurontin. I have to have blood tests every 3 months for Lithium levels and to check my liver and if he doesn't see the reports he is on the phone tracking me down!
As for the mentally ill acting out at night or when no one else is around? How simplistic and how true. Do you really think that I am going to sit on the couch in my living room and kill myself in front of my husband? Do you really think that I would have hurt my child in front of anyone? No, I would have wanted to be alone.

Okay - maybe that is just all me and I am the only crazy person on the planet. The others are just using it for an excuse.

southernpixie-
Finding the right meds to treat my bipolar was almost worse then the bipolar itself. At one point I totally stopped going to Dr.'s because I felt the meds they were putting me on were only f*c*ing me up worse. Ya notice they always want to start out simply treating you for depression- give ya an antidepressent and then they wonder why your next mania lasts 2 weeks. Duh! Perhaps because your only treating my depression!

I always knew there was something wrong with me it was just a matter of finding out what. When I was finally DX'd Bipolar I laughed and cried at the same time. I was so happy to know that it wasn't *me* causing this turmoil inside of myself... it had a name, it was a real illness and I couldn't be cured but with the right lifestyle changes and medications I could live a normal life. Ha! I'd been told I could live a normal life. That was a bit of a mania in and of itself!

Years ago I found a wonderful Dr. while I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt.. she kept me in the hospital 3 weeks longer so she could start me on a cocktail of medications she thought just might work for me. Neurontin, Celexa, Zyprexa, and klonopin. Well, they worked and because of these meds. I am alive today! 3 yrs. ago I went off of the Klonopin, I took classes on how to handle my panic and anxiety on my own without medication.


I, too, have Bipolar 1 with ultra rapid cycling and psychotic tendencies.
I thank God every day for helping me get and stay well. I wanted to die every day of my life before I got the proper treatment. I ruined everything I ever came close to. Friendships, love, jobs, cars.. you name it, I destroyed it! lol

I just saw so much of myself in your writings that I felt I had to share that with you. I'm going to stop babbling now and let the discussion go back to being about Andrea and her illness.

 

[j2mirish]

southernpixie-
Finding the right meds to treat my bipolar was almost worse then the bipolar itself. At one point I totally stopped going to Dr.'s because I felt the meds they were putting me on were only f*c*ing me up worse. Ya notice they always want to start out simply treating you for depression- give ya an antidepressent and then they wonder why your next mania lasts 2 weeks. Duh! Perhaps because your only treating my depression!

I always knew there was something wrong with me it was just a matter of finding out what. When I was finally DX'd Bipolar I laughed and cried at the same time. I was so happy to know that it wasn't *me* causing this turmoil inside of myself... it had a name, it was a real illness and I couldn't be cured but with the right lifestyle changes and medications I could live a normal life. Ha! I'd been told I could live a normal life. That was a bit of a mania in and of itself!

Years ago I found a wonderful Dr. while I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt.. she kept me in the hospital 3 weeks longer so she could start me on a cocktail of medications she thought just might work for me. Neurontin, Celexa, Zyprexa, and klonopin. Well, they worked and because of these meds. I am alive today! 3 yrs. ago I went off of the Klonopin, I took classes on how to handle my panic and anxiety on my own without medication.


I, too, have Bipolar 1 with ultra rapid cycling and psychotic tendencies.
I thank God every day for helping me get and stay well. I wanted to die every day of my life before I got the proper treatment. I ruined everything I ever came close to. Friendships, love, jobs, cars.. you name it, I destroyed it! lol

I just saw so much of myself in your writings that I felt I had to share that with you. I'm going to stop babbling now and let the discussion go back to being about Andrea and her illness.

Please dont consider it babbling- what some of you folks have shared with us, is alot of help with discussing Andrea's illness--- she cried for help over & over-- unfortunalty, her husband didnt care, and she was not "strong" enough to get help for herself--you guys sharing your history, make it "real" without the ending tragedies:blowkiss: