TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

[HongKongPhooey]

I wonder at which point she went in her mind from *kill hostile intruder* to *sorry bud*?

 

[Via Marple]

I didn't notice this when I listened to the call a few weeks back - towards the end she says "How the f*k did I put the..." and then she doesn't finish. For the life of me can't figure out what she was going to say. Put the WHAT?

Put the... key in? Consistent with the whole speech, claiming she was not at fault.

I have also noticed something that I didn't notice before... is it normal that 911 did not ask her for the extent of the victim's injuries? Not give her instructions how to attend to him? Operator seemed to be treating her as a victim.

Did the police arrive first at the end of the call? Not the ambulance? Because she's a cop, they sent cops out right away?

 

[Rocco]

I wonder at which point she went in her mind from *kill hostile intruder* to *sorry bud*?

Right after she turned the light on? (which anyone else usually does as soon as they enter a house or an apt.)

 

[Rocco]

Put the... key in? Consistent with the whole speech, claiming she was not at fault.

I have also noticed something that I didn't notice before... is it normal that 911 did not ask her for the extent of the victim's injuries? Not give her instructions how to attend to him? Operator seemed to be treating her as a victim.

Did the police arrive first at the end of the call? Not the ambulance? Because she's a cop, they sent cops out right away?

I noticed too that the 911 operator didn't ask anything about his injuries, except where he was hit. Weird.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Right after she turned the light on? (which anyone else usually does as soon as they enter a house or an apt.)

First thing I do defo.

If it was dark how did she see him to shoot to target anyway?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

911 call is odd to me but ours have a v set pattern.

Tell me whats happened.

Then .. is the patient breathing?

Do you guys have similar?

 

[Rocco]

First thing I do defo.

If it was dark how did she see him to shoot to target anyway?

She saw his silhouette and opened fire. No need to know who she was shooting. Shoot now, ask questions later.

 

[mickey2942]

Why?

She sounds like she has had too much booze to me.

 

[ilovewings]

"Others said they couldn't convict her because she was a police officer."

Holy cow, I find that terrifying.

It is terrifying and frankly, it sounds ignorant and closed minded.

 

[ilovewings]

10 would-be jurors in Amber Guyger murder trial say they've never heard of her or Botham Jean
State District Judge Tammy Kemp hopes to have 12 jurors and four alternates chosen by the end of the day Friday.

Sept 13, 2019

"A defense attorney for fired police officer Amber Guyger took a moment Friday to introduce his client to the 220 members of the jury pool for her murder trial.

"This is Amber Guyger," Toby Shook said, moving to stand beside Guyger. "I am proud to represent her, along with the rest of the defense team."

For a handful of candidates, the details of the case were a complete mystery — and those were just the jurors attorneys on both sides were looking for.

Jury selection resumed Friday morning ahead of Guyger's trial for killing Botham Jean, an unarmed man who was shot in his apartment last year....

The jury will be asked to decide whether it was a crime when Guyger, 31, shot Jean on Sept. 6, 2018. And if it was a crime, was it murder or a lesser crime like manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide? They could also find Guyger not guilty....

Testimony is expected to begin Sept. 23, and the trial could last two weeks.

Four thousand potential jurors were summoned to the courthouse last week to fill out questionnaires about their views and knowledge of the case. About 800 showed up.

On Friday, the remaining 400 would-be jurors filled the second floor outside the Central Jury Room of the Frank Crowley Courts Building on Friday. They stood in several single file lines as bailiffs slowly allowed them inside....

Jurors may be sequestered during the entire trial and will not be able to use their phones or access the internet. The trial could last two weeks, Kemp said, but may be shorter or longer...."

10 would-be jurors in Amber Guyger murder trial say they've never heard of her or Botham Jean

Is it normal procedure for a defense attorney to introduce his client and say he is proud to represent her (or him)?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

She saw his silhouette and opened fire. No need to know who she was shooting. Shoot now, ask questions later.

Is that legal, for "home invasions"? Genuine question, I have no idea

 

[HongKongPhooey]

911 call is odd to me but ours have a v set pattern.

Tell me whats happened.

Then .. is the patient breathing?

Do you guys have similar?

Before my fellow Brits correct me, that's the wrong way round actually isnt it? First question is whether the patient is breathing in the UK.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Before my fellow Brits correct me, that's the wrong way round actually isnt it? First question is whether the patient is breathing in the UK.

Yes I find it extremely strange that in that nearly 6 minute phone call the 911 operator, Carla, asked ZERO questions about the condition of the patient/victim. AG asked for EMS straight away, but that was the end of it.

I think under normal circumstances the protocol for this call would be basic first aid - make sure the patient is breathing, has a pulse, apply pressure to the wounds to stop bleeding, transport.

911 operators have specific protocols that they follow for each call. Why 911/Carla didn't follow the basic first aid protocol is something I hope we find out in the trial. I hope we hear from Carla directly.

I am completely guessing here but I think because the caller/shooter was a police officer, the protocol changed completely. I think the protocol must be for 911 to sort of step back and let LE determine when first aid gets applied. In officer involved shootings, first aid is often withheld until the scene is considered safe by the officers on scene. 911/Carla really has no idea what happened here.

I think because this was an officer involved shooting, a different 911 protocol kicked in. I don't think not giving directions for first aid was a mistake on 911/Carla's part. Rather I think she did what she was trained to do. Carla kept a clear and calm head.
IMO

 

[mickey2942]

Before my fellow Brits correct me, that's the wrong way round actually isnt it? First question is whether the patient is breathing in the UK.

Yes, but in a circumstance of an "officer involved shooting" the protocol might be different.

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Is that legal, for "home invasions"? Genuine question, I have no idea

Yes, it is in Texas. The law is here: PENAL CODE CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
And states:

"a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;"
...​

BBM. If a person is in your home and they are not supposed to be, you have a right to shoot them if you reasonably believe you are in danger. This law is sometimes referred to as the "Castle Doctrine". I am by no means an expert on this and here is a link where a lawyer tries to explain to us laymen: The Castle Doctrine: Understanding Self-Defense in Texas

This case is so fascinating because of this law and whether the defense can spin it to the jury to believe that the castle doctrine is applicable because AG truly believed she was in her own apartment. We're going to see some mighty fancy footwork by the defense.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

"This is a very unique situation," Police Chief U. Renee Hall said at a news conference Friday afternoon. "We have ceased handling it under our normal officer-involved shooting protocol."

Officials said that after the officer reported that Jean was wounded, other police arrived within four minutes and administered first aid. Jean was taken to Baylor University Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.
Dallas officer faces manslaughter charge for shooting man in apartment she thought was hers, police chief says

 

[imstilla.grandma]

David Klinger, an associate professor in the department of criminology and criminal justice at the University of Missouri–St Louis and a former officer with the Los Angeles police department, said there are two permissible circumstances in which an officer can use lethal force.

1. Constitutionally, a police officer can shoot a suspect who is threatening the life of the officer, a fellow officer or a member of the public, said Klinger, a use-of-force expert. This is known as the “defence of life” standard.
2. An officer can also shoot a fleeing suspect if the officer believes the suspect has committed a violent felony and his or her escape would pose a significant and serious threat, he said.

The US constitution does not allow a police officer to shoot an unarmed, non-violent suspect in flight who does not pose a serious risk to public safety.

This was determined in a 1985 supreme court case, Garner v Tennessee. The justices ruled that deadly force “may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others”.

The decision limited the long-standing “fleeing felon” rule that permitted officers to use deadly force against a suspect who was trying to escape, even if the person in flight was not a threat to the public.
Michael Brown shooting: when can US law enforcement officers fire?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Legal experts say Dallas could be held liable for Jean's death in a federal lawsuit if attorneys convince a court that Guyger was acting under the scope of her employment when she killed her neighbor.

Does it matter that Guyger was off duty when she killed Jean?
Not necessarily. Personal injury and labor attorneys say the main question in a case against the city would be whether Guyger was acting "under the color of state law," or, in other words, whether she was using her police authority.

"Whether a police officer is acting under color of law does not depend on his on- or off-duty status at the time of the alleged violation," wrote a federal appeals court judge in a 1990s case involving a Houston officer working as a security guard.

Micah Dortch, a Dallas attorney who specializes in catastrophic personal injury, said the city could argue that Guyger was not acting in the course of her police duties because she was off the clock when the shooting happened.

If he were the plaintiff, Dortch said, he'd counter that a peace officer is acting in the course of her employment any time she draws her firearm.
Could Dallas be held liable for Botham Jean's death after shooting by off-duty officer?

 

[CrimeDawg123]

Legal experts say Dallas could be held liable for Jean's death in a federal lawsuit if attorneys convince a court that Guyger was acting under the scope of her employment when she killed her neighbor.

Does it matter that Guyger was off duty when she killed Jean?
Not necessarily. Personal injury and labor attorneys say the main question in a case against the city would be whether Guyger was acting "under the color of state law," or, in other words, whether she was using her police authority.

"Whether a police officer is acting under color of law does not depend on his on- or off-duty status at the time of the alleged violation," wrote a federal appeals court judge in a 1990s case involving a Houston officer working as a security guard.

Micah Dortch, a Dallas attorney who specializes in catastrophic personal injury, said the city could argue that Guyger was not acting in the course of her police duties because she was off the clock when the shooting happened.

If he were the plaintiff, Dortch said, he'd counter that a peace officer is acting in the course of her employment any time she draws her firearm.
Could Dallas be held liable for Botham Jean's death after shooting by off-duty officer?

Yes, I think this will be the second prong of the defense strategy:
1) She thought she was in her own apartment therefore justified in shooting to defend herself
2) The reason she thought she was in her own apartment was because she was completely off her nut because DPD was negligent in overworking her. DPD is at fault.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Yes I find it extremely strange that in that nearly 6 minute phone call the 911 operator, Carla, asked ZERO questions about the condition of the patient/victim. AG asked for EMS straight away, but that was the end of it.

I think under normal circumstances the protocol for this call would be basic first aid - make sure the patient is breathing, has a pulse, apply pressure to the wounds to stop bleeding, transport.

911 operators have specific protocols that they follow for each call. Why 911/Carla didn't follow the basic first aid protocol is something I hope we find out in the trial. I hope we hear from Carla directly.

I am completely guessing here but I think because the caller/shooter was a police officer, the protocol changed completely. I think the protocol must be for 911 to sort of step back and let LE determine when first aid gets applied. In officer involved shootings, first aid is often withheld until the scene is considered safe by the officers on scene. 911/Carla really has no idea what happened here.

I think because this was an officer involved shooting, a different 911 protocol kicked in. I don't think not giving directions for first aid was a mistake on 911/Carla's part. Rather I think she did what she was trained to do. Carla kept a clear and calm head.
IMO

That makes sense