TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #4

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  • #141
The civil tort of wrongful death of BSJ by AG is clear. What is the underlying factor? Negligence - she was in his apartment not her own.

But is her negligence a criminal act? Perhaps. Criminally negligent homicide occurs when someone is so negligent, so unreasonably negligent, that another person died because of their act. The affirmative defense of mistake of fact is a question of fact for a jury to weigh. If every benefit of the doubt went to AG with the still confused facts we don't have, JMO I would probably find her criminally negligent specifically for not flipping on a light switch which I believe was right there within easy non-dominant hand reach in "her" (and BSJ's) door entry. I am ignoring the red mat and earwitnesses, other extraneous items like maybe AG was a security guard, etc.

The standard for manslaughter in Texas is recklessness. If there is ice on the road and although cautious and lawfully driving, someone's car goes out of control killing someone, there is no criminal act, just the civil liability. But if someone who is sober is driving 100mph and kills someone, it's vehicular manslaughter because the speed that they were driving at is inherently reckless. It doesn't matter that they had no intent to kill, they were reckless. If a drunk driver over the BAC limit, or any lower BAC or under the influence of drugs, kills someone, that's intoxication manslaughter. Again, no intent to kill, and for this charge reckless driving acts need not be shown, but the impaired driving in and of itself is reckless. All that said...

was AG reckless? I can only say that the quality of her weapon use and control will not be deemed reckless. She fired 1-and-2, with pause and aim. This is not reckless discharge of a weapon but controlled use. It is her decision to use her weapon while she is factually not in her apartment but someone else's apartment that may be criminally negligent or even rise to criminally reckless. I don't know if she was reckless, but I do think that if she had just one beer on her way home, plus being very tired, then she may be deemed impaired, and therefore reckless no differently than a driver well below BAC after just one beer who kills someone. More clear details in this case may also elevate her actions from possible criminally negligent homicide to the reckless standard of manslaughter, for which she was arrested.

I do not see this case rising to murder unless a whole lot more information comes out. She was not in the commission of a crime, she did not act with intent to murder. Compare the known alleged facts in this case to those of Clara Harris who lay in wait in her car, parked at the hotel where her husband was visiting his mistress. She waited until he emerged, and then she intentionally ran him over multiple times until he was dead. That case is murder, and is a sample of the intent or knowing of the murder statute in Texas. Harris was very lucky with the passion downgrade from murder1 to murder2. Most murders involve persons who know each other, or a Ted Bundy stranger rapist-murderer. I do not see the required mens rea for the murder standard in this case.

Hey, it's just one opinion in a sea of opinions. We need a LOT more information on this case. JMO.

This is but one version of two or so stories she's provided so far. There could be more, we don't know.

The decision for charges should be based on all the evidence uncovered in a full investigation.

There's no reason for prosecutors and LE to base their charges strictly on the word of a dishonest, narcissistic, self-serving killer who is only trying to save her own hide.

What kind of world would we be living in if LE and prosecutors took for gospel every alibi given by every cold blooded killer?
 
  • #142
Well then... There must be a lot of killers who have got away with murder, in particular those who can charm, lie convincingly, with a bit of acting skills thrown in. Biases are everywhere. There is less justice in the world than we'd like to think.
:rolleyes:

Spend some time browsing around here at WS. There are far too many cases where this happens. It's sad, but corruption, while not common, is part of our system.
 
  • #143
Has anything happened in the last few weeks, since the woman was arrested and released?
?
 
  • #144
  • #145
My local news, has anyone here researched the case of off duty officer Michelle Morsi Murphy costing the city a ton of money in lawsuits?
Off duty false reporting and more.....
 
  • #146
Somehow I can't shake the idea that this was premeditated, too. Not planned days in advance, but a slow burn, going on for a while, culminating in the hatching of a plan to go upstairs, confront the guy and try to scare him, plant some drugs to get him busted, etc. I'd be willing to bet she already tried to get the apartment management to break his lease or some such. JMO, she had her excuse/story planned that would make it appear accidental if things went wrong. She's probably not a very bright person, so her excuse wasn't very good, hence the need to have an FOP attorney help come up with a different one after the fact. Her goal, JMO, was to somehow force him to break his lease and move out.

So yeah, that's not manslaughter. The fact she's been fired implies the case against her is fairly strong.
I've been contemplating a similar motive. I think AG wanted Botham out of there, and won't speculate why that might be. But, maybe the noise complaints were unfounded, and they didn't seem to be working to get him evicted so she decided to try a different tactic.

I wonder if the apartment manager mentioned to AG about complaints of smelling MJ in the building when she talked to him earlier about her latest noise grievance. That may have given AG another idea. Maybe she wanted to frame Botham for possession of MJ and her purpose was to accuse him, plant the evidence and arrest him.

I wonder if AG had first tapped softly on his door and when BSJ answered, he opened the door slightly since he was wearing only his underwear (hence, AG's version that the door was ajar) and peered out from behind the door. When she said she needed to speak to him, maybe he excused himself to throw on some clothes and closed the door. Then, she was heard knocking on his door and demanding, "Let me in."

At that point, I think AG was getting annoyed. I don't know if she forced the door open before it closed all the way (again, fits with the idea of his door being ajar), if she used a master key to open the door, or if BSJ opened the door again to assure AG he'd speak with her shortly and she forced her way in.

This is just speculation, but I'm trying to figure out how all the pieces fit together. Of course, there's much we don't know. I have no idea what really happened once AG was inside BSJ's apartment. I just cannot believe AG actually went to the wrong apartment, ignoring all of the cues around her, and shot a man who was no threat to her. It's just unfathomable. IMO
 
  • #147
I've been contemplating a similar motive. I think AG wanted Botham out of there, and won't speculate why that might be. But, maybe the noise complaints were unfounded, and they didn't seem to be working to get him evicted so she decided to try a different tactic.

I wonder if the apartment manager mentioned to AG about complaints of smelling MJ in the building when she talked to him earlier about her latest noise grievance. That may have given AG another idea. Maybe she wanted to frame Botham for possession of MJ and her purpose was to accuse him, plant the evidence and arrest him.

I wonder if AG had first tapped softly on his door and when BSJ answered, he opened the door slightly since he was wearing only his underwear (hence, AG's version that the door was ajar) and peered out from behind the door. When she said she needed to speak to him, maybe he excused himself to throw on some clothes and closed the door. Then, she was heard knocking on his door and demanding, "Let me in."

At that point, I think AG was getting annoyed. I don't know if she forced the door open before it closed all the way (again, fits with the idea of his door being ajar), if she used a master key to open the door, or if BSJ opened the door again to assure AG he'd speak with her shortly and she forced her way in.

This is just speculation, but I'm trying to figure out how all the pieces fit together. Of course, there's much we don't know. I have no idea what really happened once AG was inside BSJ's apartment. I just cannot believe AG actually went to the wrong apartment, ignoring all of the cues around her, and shot a man who was no threat to her. It's just unfathomable. IMO

I agree with much of what you have said, I also think AG was a "quasi Security Guard" there, and had a passkey to his door. I believe that she went home, his music was on, she went upstairs, knocked on his door, he didn't open, she used the passkey, he was surprised, she told him to get down, he wasn't compliant fast enough, she was so pissed, she shot him, combination of long day, loud music, just being angry, maybe some alcohol...and then, she realized she really screwed up. Called it in, and called the union boss.
 
  • #148
I agree with much of what you have said, I also think AG was a "quasi Security Guard" there, and had a passkey to his door. I believe that she went home, his music was on, she went upstairs, knocked on his door, he didn't open, she used the passkey, he was surprised, she told him to get down, he wasn't compliant fast enough, she was so pissed, she shot him, combination of long day, loud music, just being angry, maybe some alcohol...and then, she realized she really screwed up. Called it in, and called the union boss.
Whatever AG's reason for entering his apartment, and however she did so, I think BSJ's reaction was to run to the back of the apartment to grab a blanket or something to cover himself. Maybe it irritated AG that he ran from her or was reaching for something and she demanded he stop, BSJ explained he just wanted to cover himself up, and AG pulled out her gun and started firing. IDK.
 
  • #149
Whatever AG's reason for entering his apartment, and however she did so, I think BSJ's reaction was to run to the back of the apartment to grab a blanket or something to cover himself. Maybe it irritated AG that he ran from her or was reaching for something and she demanded he stop, BSJ explained he just wanted to cover himself up, and AG pulled out her gun and started firing. IDK.
I agree with all the possibilities raised, except one - I don't think he would run from her even if he was semi naked. He was very aware of police and their biases in America. He's a smart guy.
 
  • #150
I agree with all the possibilities raised, except one - I don't think he would run from her even if he was semi naked. He was very aware of police and their biases in America. He's a smart guy.
I didn't mean to suggest running at full speed, as in fleeing -- he was within the confines of a small apartment, on the 4th floor. Just hurrying to get some clothes on to make himself more presentable while explaining to her he'd be right with her. He may have even backed away. If she told him she was there only to talk, I don't think he'd presume she was there on any type of official business. After all, he hadn't done anything wrong. I think he made a split-second, sub-conscious judgment about the situation and didn't foresee danger so his priority was modesty. JMO
 
  • #151
  • #152
I believe she thought she could bully him into compliance, by wearing her full police officer uniform. When he didn't jump on command, she didn't even think twice about shooting him, because she "forgot", she was not actually going after a criminal.

The derogatory comments and language that officers use on a daily basis to refer to offenders, is demeaning, and discounts their humanity. The attitude many police officers have towards people is disrespectful, and that type of arrogance, expecting to be treated with respect, just because an officer is wearing a uniform, is part of why there are so many escalated events. Officers expect immediate compliance with all commands, often not even giving the other person time to process what they said.

I have seen it happen. Fortunately, no one was killed, but it was a crazy immediate escalation of a situation that didn't need that response.
 
  • #153
Deleted
 
  • #154
Duplicate post
 
  • #155


This is interesting. I still believe that an independent counsel needs to be brought in to do the prosecution, because the city is looking out for its own here. Why else would the DA request to block release of the 911 call? It states "irrelevant to public". I don't think so...and would impede investigation...haven't they had a month to "investigate"?

The DA is walking a fine line here, she is up for re-election, and it is obvious, Guyger is a hot button election item.

Guyger's lawyer states that it was, "unfair" for Dallas PD to fire his client...seriously, there would have been riots by this time if AG had not been terminated.

Link to timeline so far..
A Disturbing Timeline Of Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger Killing Botham Jean In His Own Home
 
  • #156

This is really hinky. I wonder if the 911 tapes include her talking about what happened, how she got into his apartment, etc. before she had a chance to change her story. It could indicate she illegally entered his apartment, but she didn't see it that way at the time due to, as mickey2942 points out above, officer "entitlement".

Bo's family needs to sue to get those tapes released, if they haven't already. Sadly, this is SOP these days in officer-involved shootings.
 
  • #157
  • #158
If it was a "terrible accident", release the 911 tapes.

If it was a "terrible accident", release the bloodwork results.

If it was a "terrible accident", release the timeline of Amber Guyger for the entire day.

If it was a "terrible accident", release the information about the locks.

If it was a "terrible accident", let us know if Amber Guyger had a passkey for Security reasons.

If it was a "terrible accident", why hasn't the autopsy results been released?

If it was a "terrible accident", why didn't Chief Hall stand firm on her original statement not to fire Guyger?

If it was a "terrible accident", let us know about all complaints regarding noise, marijuana use.

I have more questions...but that is the beginning, if it was a "terrible accident ", why all of the secrecy? That is the problem. Lack of transparency, which is why we don't believe in the "terrible accident" story. If it was as Ms. Guyger states, she walked into the wrong apartment, thought he was an intruder and fired, then support that statement will all of the supporting information above.
 
  • #159
Haven't been on in a while so sorry if I seem to backtracking something you guys discussed but remember when I said it was odd to me that the 911 call did not come out yet especially because they don't ever see a problem to release them with any other murder cases in Dallas, like they normally do.

I was willing to bet it had something on the tape that's going to hurt her case or DPDs. From the beginning I felt that way. It's just odd because I know for a fact they never hold back call recordings for anyone else and it's always on the news. My question is, what's the deal?

Is he screaming or crying ? and it wouldn't be out of respect to his family? Or do you think they are trying to hide something that she may did or said .. or didn't do or said in order to protect her. They claim it's so they can keep her case in dallas and there is no pre judgment on this but I call BS !


Seen this quote from a news article. They wrote the attorney general requesting the rights not to realease it after the dallas morning news wrote a request for the 911 call from DPD to release it.

released Statement:
"The city also says it would be an unwanted invasion of privacy and of no legitimate concern to the public."

1. Since when do we care if her invasions of privacy matter when she invaded someone else's house. I could care less about her crying. Invasion of privacy went out the door when she walk in his space.

2. No legitimate concern to the public, yet won't realease its

3. If they were talking about invasion of his own privacy then I'm sure his mom would want them released, no matter how hard it would be. Only because she has that intuition that this story doesn't add up and she should have that right.
 
  • #160
released Statement:
"The city also says it would be an unwanted invasion of privacy and of no legitimate concern to the public."
Respectfully snipped for focus.
What a ridiculous, and insulting statement that is! Of course this is of concern to the public! Anytime a police officer shoots and kills an unarmed Citizen it is of concern to the public. The fact the Citizen was in their own home and completely blameless is of grave concern.

All of this evidence we are eagerly waiting for will be brought out at trial. I speculate it will be very damning to AG.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
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