You are in my head and said everything so well. I appreciate your post so much. Finally a post of reason and knowledge of the facts in this case and of the Texas law. Emotion has been the order of the day thru out this whole trial and logic and understanding of the law tragically missing.I’ve followed this case since the morning after it happened and I’ve almost counted down the days to this trial. I don’t know exactly what I expected but this was not it. Obviously it has been an emotionally charged year or so and public conclusions have been drawn since day one. Very polarizing opinions. I formed what I considered reasonably logical opinions of what happened that night based on the only facts made known to the public at that time. After watching every day of the trial - some days I had to regroup and finish that days testimony on the following day, because it was all difficult to see - I was speechless when the verdict was read. And I don’t know how or why the jury reached the conclusion that it did however, when I look at everything presented to the jury, testimony, all of that, I am having a hard time understanding exactly how 12 jurors were able to take all of those same exhibits as well as having listened to the testimony of the witnesses, discussed the case amongst themselves and read through every instruction given to them by the court pertaining to the charges. I have no doubt that other than the Judge reading the documents in their entirety to them, that they each read it again outside of the court room. I even understand the questions asked of the Judge during deliberations. What I am not certain of is that each of the jurors understood everything they were provided and how to apply it to this particular case. I have served on juries (none quite like this) and I’m also very familiar with the Texas Penal Code. I don’t intend to insinuate anyone of the jurors are lacking intelligence or the ability to comprehend things concerning the task they were each selected to and felt confident that they could perform. But I must say, serving on a jury in any type of case is something that I have personally seen too many people take very unserious. This was a very very difficult case and I don’t envy any one person who played a roll in it, especially the jurors. Murder/Manslaughter/Negligent Homicide...a few of the most debatable charges in our Penal Code! I can probably recite all of them in their entirety but it took me a bit of time to fully understand each of them. And I still look back at them to refresh myself. As I’ve seen first hand, to say that 12 likely untrained citizens (and AGAIN I just want to be clear that I’m not speaking to the abilities of these jurors) thoroughly read those instructions and understood them well enough to reach this verdict so quickly is far reaching IMO. I think this is a problem throughout the entire judicial system. I will have to rewatch the reading of the indictment and things because I didn’t catch every thing in addition to the main offenses. Either way I think some of the main issues at hand were overlooked. I don’t believe that anyone can honestly say that Mr. Jean deserved to die. I also don’t believe anyone can truthfully say that Ms. Guyger went to that apartment with any malicious intent or plan to take anyone’s life. I believe a sufficient number of witnesses testified to the building and parking layout and how common it was for people to park on the wrong floor, walk the halls of the wrong floor and even easily enter the wrong apartment. The red mat...I don’t want to even touch that subject. I even agree that she did testify that she chose to discharge her firearm and her training has taught her that those shot(s) should be fired with the intention of killing the person or thing you are aiming for. This is a crucial, if not the most crucial bit of information that I don’t think people are taking into account. Perception. We can not possibly know what Amber Guyger was thinking in those few moments. We can also not know what Botham Jean was thinking during that time. Nor will we ever really know what happened. Training and experience is all law enforcement officers have to rely on. Common sense, “street smarts”, etc. all add those things, but when it comes down to the heat of the moment, a real life situation, human nature is going to take over. Before ANY thing else we are human. Some officers may have handled the situation very differently and we wouldn’t be discussing this. On the other hand some officers may have done the exact opposite of that and things been much worse. All officers had the same training and all were fairly experienced in similar high-intensity situations, but the one thing none of them are able to reasonably control is how their mind and body react when adrenaline is pumping through the body. I have been in situations where I did chose to “retreat” and I got hurt. When a few of the witnesses were describing this tunnel vision phenomenon...that’s a good way to describe it. IMO there is no tunnel there are no blinders or hallway, I couldn’t tell you what else was around me other than who or what I perceive as a threat to me, my safety and my life in those moments. And those few moments can seem like an eternity or they can be over in the blink of an eye. It is not something you can understand unless you’ve experienced it. Even then, it is different for everyone and in different situations. They mentioned short term memory loss. I think that’s a fair definition. I’ve been involved in spontaneous uses of force and was shocked to see video footage or hear witness accounts because of the details I could not recall. I guess they come back over time, or could, it’s hard to say. I’ve even sworn to my own statements about things I said and did that I actually did not say or do. Was I lying? No. I swore that those things happened because I was certain that they had. It’s extremely hard to describe. Of course these are my experiences. I do think it’s important for a jury to hear these things. Because it is very impossible to fathom otherwise. It’s very easy to say what she should have done, and I don’t doubt that she replays that in her head constantly. Hindsight is always 20/20.
It’s too late to scrap this entire post, it probably makes no sense. I won’t call this tragedy an accident but more a mistake. A bad mistake with horrible consequences. IMO, there will never be true justice here. My heart breaks for two families.
•MMcG•
But have there ever been any cases where a person goes into the wrong house thinking it’s *their* house and killed someone?
Well...Botham Jean could have had guests so she could have murdered even more people? Thinking she had a gang of intruders in her apartment?
I know I speak for many WS'ers on many threads you post on by saying how much we appreciate you Gitana, and yes, your logic! Thank you to all the legal folk who helped us reason through the twists and turns, and helped us learn more about the law in the process. Thank you all!
And in Michigan, a man went to prison for the same thing. The person trying to break in was drunk, under age, fled the scene of an accident she caused, and was banging on his house then trying to enter the front door. He is a white male with no criminal record, long term employment and a homeowner, and she was a black teen in the commission of multiple crimes at 2AM, and he thought it was a home invasion.
I think it's a very good post. *thumbup*I’ve followed this case since the morning after it happened and I’ve almost counted down the days to this trial. I don’t know exactly what I expected but this was not it. Obviously it has been an emotionally charged year or so and public conclusions have been drawn since day one. Very polarizing opinions. I formed what I considered reasonably logical opinions of what happened that night based on the only facts made known to the public at that time. After watching every day of the trial - some days I had to regroup and finish that days testimony on the following day, because it was all difficult to see - I was speechless when the verdict was read. And I don’t know how or why the jury reached the conclusion that it did however, when I look at everything presented to the jury, testimony, all of that, I am having a hard time understanding exactly how 12 jurors were able to take all of those same exhibits as well as having listened to the testimony of the witnesses, discussed the case amongst themselves and read through every instruction given to them by the court pertaining to the charges. I have no doubt that other than the Judge reading the documents in their entirety to them, that they each read it again outside of the court room. I even understand the questions asked of the Judge during deliberations. What I am not certain of is that each of the jurors understood everything they were provided and how to apply it to this particular case. I have served on juries (none quite like this) and I’m also very familiar with the Texas Penal Code. I don’t intend to insinuate anyone of the jurors are lacking intelligence or the ability to comprehend things concerning the task they were each selected to and felt confident that they could perform. But I must say, serving on a jury in any type of case is something that I have personally seen too many people take very unserious. This was a very very difficult case and I don’t envy any one person who played a roll in it, especially the jurors. Murder/Manslaughter/Negligent Homicide...a few of the most debatable charges in our Penal Code! I can probably recite all of them in their entirety but it took me a bit of time to fully understand each of them. And I still look back at them to refresh myself. As I’ve seen first hand, to say that 12 likely untrained citizens (and AGAIN I just want to be clear that I’m not speaking to the abilities of these jurors) thoroughly read those instructions and understood them well enough to reach this verdict so quickly is far reaching IMO. I think this is a problem throughout the entire judicial system. I will have to rewatch the reading of the indictment and things because I didn’t catch every thing in addition to the main offenses. Either way I think some of the main issues at hand were overlooked. I don’t believe that anyone can honestly say that Mr. Jean deserved to die. I also don’t believe anyone can truthfully say that Ms. Guyger went to that apartment with any malicious intent or plan to take anyone’s life. I believe a sufficient number of witnesses testified to the building and parking layout and how common it was for people to park on the wrong floor, walk the halls of the wrong floor and even easily enter the wrong apartment. The red mat...I don’t want to even touch that subject. I even agree that she did testify that she chose to discharge her firearm and her training has taught her that those shot(s) should be fired with the intention of killing the person or thing you are aiming for. This is a crucial, if not the most crucial bit of information that I don’t think people are taking into account. Perception. We can not possibly know what Amber Guyger was thinking in those few moments. We can also not know what Botham Jean was thinking during that time. Nor will we ever really know what happened. Training and experience is all law enforcement officers have to rely on. Common sense, “street smarts”, etc. all add those things, but when it comes down to the heat of the moment, a real life situation, human nature is going to take over. Before ANY thing else we are human. Some officers may have handled the situation very differently and we wouldn’t be discussing this. On the other hand some officers may have done the exact opposite of that and things been much worse. All officers had the same training and all were fairly experienced in similar high-intensity situations, but the one thing none of them are able to reasonably control is how their mind and body react when adrenaline is pumping through the body. I have been in situations where I did chose to “retreat” and I got hurt. When a few of the witnesses were describing this tunnel vision phenomenon...that’s a good way to describe it. IMO there is no tunnel there are no blinders or hallway, I couldn’t tell you what else was around me other than who or what I perceive as a threat to me, my safety and my life in those moments. And those few moments can seem like an eternity or they can be over in the blink of an eye. It is not something you can understand unless you’ve experienced it. Even then, it is different for everyone and in different situations. They mentioned short term memory loss. I think that’s a fair definition. I’ve been involved in spontaneous uses of force and was shocked to see video footage or hear witness accounts because of the details I could not recall. I guess they come back over time, or could, it’s hard to say. I’ve even sworn to my own statements about things I said and did that I actually did not say or do. Was I lying? No. I swore that those things happened because I was certain that they had. It’s extremely hard to describe. Of course these are my experiences. I do think it’s important for a jury to hear these things. Because it is very impossible to fathom otherwise. It’s very easy to say what she should have done, and I don’t doubt that she replays that in her head constantly. Hindsight is always 20/20.
It’s too late to scrap this entire post, it probably makes no sense. I won’t call this tragedy an accident but more a mistake. A bad mistake with horrible consequences. IMO, there will never be true justice here. My heart breaks for two families.
•MMcG•
Botham Jean’s family has filed a civil suit. I have seen interviews with his Mother where she talks about one of her goals in this is that Police officers receive better training. This article is from October 2018, about a month after the arrest of AG.
