TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5

[puddintain]

It sounds like you're assuming that whoever wrote the letter killed the girls.
It's difficult to see anyone besides Tommy or Debra having an opportunity to write the letter. To me, the handwriting looks like Tommy's. I haven't seen the Nancy Grace podcast, but I'll watch it when I have the chance.
Tommy has apparently passed two polygraph tests, so I guess you could also say, "Those pesky polygraph tests." Tommy also has an alibi supplied by Rachel's parents.

Then your assumption would be wrong. One does not necessarily equal the other. Getting the car back just doesn’t hold water to me.
Some people can pass lie detector tests especially those 45 years ago. Why would they give a person that passed the first one a second one? How could he pass without explaining the letter? No Tommy has NEVER admitted to writing this letter.
Also, if you assume that I believe just because a person was the last verified person to be seen with the girls means that person is involved, you would be incorrect again.
I do not see how one could count either out.
There are two different stories of the whereabouts of Cotton that day given by Frances. Wouldn’t it be nice to see the first one given to fwpd? I would trust the words of the neighbor she helped get ready for a party. I would also trust medical records showing that Cotton had a cancer treatment that morning making it impossible for him to do as Tommy claimed.
I cannot presume anything other than the facts placed before me. Obviously I don’t know what happened that day. I’m just trying to connect the dots of facts.

 

[Ozoner]

Then your assumption would be wrong. One does not necessarily equal the other. Getting the car back just doesn’t hold water to me.
Some people can pass lie detector tests especially those 45 years ago. Why would they give a person that passed the first one a second one? How could he pass without explaining the letter? No Tommy has NEVER admitted to writing this letter.
Also, if you assume that I believe just because a person was the last verified person to be seen with the girls means that person is involved, you would be incorrect again.
I do not see how one could count either out.
There are two different stories of the whereabouts of Cotton that day given by Frances. Wouldn’t it be nice to see the first one given to fwpd? I would trust the words of the neighbor she helped get ready for a party. I would also trust medical records showing that Cotton had a cancer treatment that morning making it impossible for him to do as Tommy claimed.
I cannot presume anything other than the facts placed before me. Obviously I don’t know what happened that day. I’m just trying to connect the dots of facts.

How do you know that Tommy didn't admit to writing the letter during the administration of the polygraph tests? Only the FWPD and Tommy would know that. Are you a current or retired member of the FWPD?

As for why Tommy was given two polygraph tests, my guess is that he must have been their prime suspect at one time; maybe he still is. That doesn't mean that he did it, though.

If the girls were being "followed" by a guy in a California jacket, that makes it sound like they were being stalked by a predator. That predator could have followed them out the door and offered to drive them to their car. Or, that guy could be some awkward geek who just wanted to get up the nerve to talk to Rachel. You seem to think you know who the guy was, but you haven't offered any evidence.

I have an unrelated question for anyone who knows how hazardous wastes are handled. It's been suggested that the girls could have been disposed of in barrels of used transmission fluid that were hauled away from Cotton's shop. What would have happened to those barrels? Would they have been opened somewhere and drained, or would they have been buried as they were? I'm guessing that they would have been buried, but I don't really know.

 

[puddintain]

How do you know that Tommy didn't admit to writing the letter during the administration of the polygraph tests? Only the FWPD and Tommy would know that. Are you a current or retired member of the FWPD?

As for why Tommy was given two polygraph tests, my guess is that he must have been their prime suspect at one time; maybe he still is. That doesn't mean that he did it, though.

If the girls were being "followed" by a guy in a California jacket, that makes it sound like they were being stalked by a predator. That predator could have followed them out the door and offered to drive them to their car. Or, that guy could be some awkward geek who just wanted to get up the nerve to talk to Rachel. You seem to think you know who the guy was, but you haven't offered any evidence.

I have an unrelated question for anyone who knows how hazardous wastes are handled. It's been suggested that the girls could have been disposed of in barrels of used transmission fluid that were hauled away from Cotton's shop. What would have happened to those barrels? Would they have been opened somewhere and drained, or would they have been buried as they were? I'm guessing that they would have been buried, but I don't really know.

Why is it so hard to stick to what is in front of our faces? Have you ever heard of Occam’s razor?

 

[puddintain]

How do you know that Tommy didn't admit to writing the letter during the administration of the polygraph tests? Only the FWPD and Tommy would know that. Are you a current or retired member of the FWPD?

As for why Tommy was given two polygraph tests, my guess is that he must have been their prime suspect at one time; maybe he still is. That doesn't mean that he did it, though.

If the girls were being "followed" by a guy in a California jacket, that makes it sound like they were being stalked by a predator. That predator could have followed them out the door and offered to drive them to their car. Or, that guy could be some awkward geek who just wanted to get up the nerve to talk to Rachel. You seem to think you know who the guy was, but you haven't offered any evidence.

I have an unrelated question for anyone who knows how hazardous wastes are handled. It's been suggested that the girls could have been disposed of in barrels of used transmission fluid that were hauled away from Cotton's shop. What would have happened to those barrels? Would they have been opened somewhere and drained, or would they have been buried as they were? I'm guessing that they would have been buried, but I don't really know.

If Tommy admitted to writing the letter why would they still be analyzing it to this day?
What is your purposed theory? And what leads you to believe what you do?

 

[Ozoner]

Why is it so hard to stick to what is in front of our faces? Have you ever heard of Occam’s razor?

What would Occam's razor be, for you? That Tommy did it and wrote the letter in order to buy time to get rid of the bodies?

If Tommy admitted to writing the letter, why would they still be analyzing it to this day?
What is your purposed theory? And what leads you to believe what you do?

I'm not married to one particular theory. There are things that complicate Occam's razor in this case. For one thing, Rachel's father was, by all accounts, a very bad guy. A P.I. hired by Rusty, Dan James, thinks that Rachel was 6—8 weeks pregnant with Cotton's child. How do you rule out someone with that reputation?
Cotton had a friend who was a convicted rapist and had a bag of human teeth in his possession. How do you rule out someone like that?
Bill Hutchins swears that he saw the girls in Danny Wilson's truck. How do you rule out Danny Wilson?
If Cotton was doing everything that people say, and Fran participated in covering it up for twenty years, how can you rule out Fran, especially when she's apparently been caught in blatant lies about the timeline?

See the problem?

And if you think that Tommy did it, what was the motive? Was it pre-planned? I haven't read anything to suggest that he's ever displayed a violent temper (unlike Cotton). If Tommy killed Rachel because she was pregnant, for instance, or to punish her because he thought she was cheating, then why would he do it while she was with two other girls?

 

[puddintain]

When Neighbors and medical records verify the whereabouts of the Arnold’s, I think that clears some of that water. Is there any proof to their father being this bad man? Had he ever been arrested for a violent crime before? Where are these accounts of violence? He was dead 6 months later. I doubt he was in any shape to pull this off. However by your account he’s at the shop with Tommy. How can you clear Tommy and not Cotton if that is so? The problem is you are working on rumors and hearsay instead of facts. I’ve given you facts only to have you dispute them and hand me hearsay.
I have not said Tommy did it. As I stated I don’t know what happened what I do know is the girls went to that mall. They were in fact seen with one person. Most likely whomever they left the mall with they knew. The car was found in the parking lot. The letter is a hoax. Imo it was wrote by her husband. That is backed by a professional hand writing analyst.
You are awfully defensive over any theory other one connected to Cotton. I have not found a record of a violent history with him. I need something anything to back up your accusations. Also just because someone had been violent does not make them guilty. Many violent people aren’t child abductors or murderers.

 

[puddintain]

When Neighbors and medical records verify the whereabouts of the Arnold’s, I think that clears some of that water. Is there any proof to their father being this bad man? Had he ever been arrested for a violent crime before? Where are these accounts of violence? He was dead 6 months later. I doubt he was in any shape to pull this off. However by your account he’s at the shop with Tommy. How can you clear Tommy and not Cotton if that is so? The problem is you are working on rumors and hearsay instead of facts. I’ve given you facts only to have you dispute them and hand me hearsay.
I have not said Tommy did it. As I stated I don’t know what happened what I do know is the girls went to that mall. They were in fact seen with one person. Most likely whomever they left the mall with they knew. The car was found in the parking lot. The letter is a hoax. Imo it was wrote by her husband. That is backed by a professional hand writing analyst.
You are awfully defensive over any theory other one connected to Cotton. I have not found a record of a violent history with him. I need something anything to back up your accusations. Also just because someone had been violent does not make them guilty. Many violent people aren’t child abductors or murderers.

Unless I knew the person seen with them at the mall’s account, it’s a little difficult to really come to a solid conclusion.

 

[Ibiz]

LE seems to believe that the girls went willing with someone they trusted. I wonder if it could have been a security person who possibly drove them to the van that the witness saw one of them being forced into?

 

[puddintain]

LE seems to believe that the girls went willing with someone they trusted. I wonder if it could have been a security person who possibly drove them to the van that the witness saw one of them being forced into?

My problem with that particular witness is they did not come forward until 1981. Why would you wait 6 years then pop up out of Houston and know for a fact it was that exact day and those same girls?

 

[Ozoner]

My problem with that particular witness is they did not come forward until 1981. Why would you wait 6 years then pop up out of Houston and know for a fact it was that exact day and those same girls?

The fact that it was two days before Christmas might have made the date more memorable, but it would be difficult to be sure about the identity of the girls.

When Neighbors and medical records verify the whereabouts of the Arnold’s, I think that clears some of that water. Is there any proof to their father being this bad man? Had he ever been arrested for a violent crime before? Where are these accounts of violence? He was dead 6 months later. I doubt he was in any shape to pull this off. However by your account he’s at the shop with Tommy. How can you clear Tommy and not Cotton if that is so? The problem is you are working on rumors and hearsay instead of facts. I’ve given you facts only to have you dispute them and hand me hearsay.
I have not said Tommy did it. As I stated I don’t know what happened what I do know is the girls went to that mall. They were in fact seen with one person. Most likely whomever they left the mall with they knew. The car was found in the parking lot. The letter is a hoax. Imo it was wrote by her husband. That is backed by a professional hand writing analyst.
You are awfully defensive over any theory other one connected to Cotton. I have not found a record of a violent history with him. I need something anything to back up your accusations. Also just because someone had been violent does not make them guilty. Many violent people aren’t child abductors or murderers.

I haven't cleared Tommy or Cotton. I haven't even cleared Fran or Debra. Quite a few different people seem to be lying.
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I'm not sure why you say that the girls most likely left the mall with someone they knew. They could have put their trust in a stranger who offered to drive them to their car. They may have left the mall alone and been harmed elsewhere; someone else may have returned the car to the lot as an attempt at misdirection

The comments about the guy in the California jacket make it sound like he was someone who was following the girls, not someone who was with them.

 

[Ibiz]

"Occam’s Razor," I guess.

 

[Ibiz]

The fact that it was two days before Christmas might have made the date more memorable, but it would be difficult to be sure about the identity of the girls.

I haven't cleared Tommy or Cotton. I haven't even cleared Fran or Debra. Quite a few different people seem to be lying.
-
I'm not sure why you say that the girls most likely left the mall with someone they knew. They could have put their trust in a stranger who offered to drive them to their car. They may have left the mall alone and been harmed elsewhere; someone else may have returned the car to the lot as an attempt at misdirection

The comments about the guy in the California jacket make it sound like he was someone who was following the girls, not someone who was with them.

To me it just doesn't seem likely that someone who knew them would abduct them from the mall in broad daylight. But again, im just kinda jumping in here.

 

[puddintain]

To me it just doesn't seem likely that someone who knew them would abduct them from the mall in broad daylight. But again, im just kinda jumping in here.

Come on in! I don’t believe it began as an abduction. It could be as easy as let’s go have a hamburger or, as suggested above give them a ride to the car. I could go for that. Ozoner and I finally found a common ground in that honestly you can’t clear any of the above. IMO Cotton and Frances didn’t have hands on. Frances just can’t tell the truth. Again imo she just says what she believes will sound better than the truth in a moment then the web is spun. That doesn’t make you a kidnapper, murderer, or sex trafficker. Just as Tommy writing the letter and telling his own lies doesn’t make him the same. The guy in the California jacket, the same rules apply. I believe they all need to be looked into along with every immediate family member of each girl. I have done a lot of research. You have to start at their immediate circle and work out. I think it’s best to look at all viable options. However, it has to. Make since. Not a lot in this case makes since. Speaking of working outwards, imo Henry Lee Lucas needs to be looked at. The Lyon sisters case is strikingly similar. That whole family was SICK and deeply involved in sex trafficking. He has posed as a security officer. He was known to come through the area during that time period. But, that pesky letter. If we only understood why he wrote it. I just can’t buy he wrote it to get the car back. Fwpd never took custody of it and it feels far fetched. The problem with this case is unless you really dig in deep, anything could have happened. I think when it finally comes to light, we are all going to say why didn’t I think of that? I believe the truth is a lot simpler than we all make it.

 

[FW_Froggy]

To me it just doesn't seem likely that someone who knew them would abduct them from the mall in broad daylight. But again, im just kinda jumping in here.

To me it's not abduct at all it's simply some one they trusted offered to give them a ride back to their car and then proceeded to leave the mall.

 

[puddintain]

To me it's not abduct at all it's simply some one they trusted offered to give them a ride back to their car and then proceeded to leave the mall.

To me that’s the most likely answer.

 

[Ozoner]

To me it's not abduct at all it's simply some one they trusted offered to give them a ride back to their car and then proceeded to leave the mall.

That's quite possible, but "someone they trusted" doesn't have to equal "someone they knew." As mentioned, it could have been someone posing as a security guard, or it could have been someone they met that day. Many of these predators are glib and disarming and know how to earn the trust of their prospective victims.

 

[FW_Froggy]

That's quite possible, but "someone they trusted" doesn't have to equal "someone they knew." As mentioned, it could have been someone posing as a security guard, or it could have been someone they met that day. Many of these predators are glib and disarming and know how to earn the trust of their prospective victims.

In my opinion I don't think the Boogie Man Serial Killer had anything to do with this case. I think the culprit was someone Rachel knew very well. Maybe someone was just tired of being played or maybe someone was about to to call it quits and leave the other or maybe someone saw others in a position they shouldn't be in. I think Rachel was way to street smart to go with a stranger especially on the 23rd with the Mall being packed with people.

 

[Ozoner]

In my opinion I don't think the Boogie Man Serial Killer had anything to do with this case. I think the culprit was someone Rachel knew very well. Maybe someone was just tired of being played or maybe someone was about to to call it quits and leave the other or maybe someone saw others in a position they shouldn't be in. I think Rachel was way to street smart to go with a stranger especially on the 23rd with the Mall being packed with people.

Where do you think the killings occurred? Debra was supposedly home all day at Tommy and Rachel's house.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Where do you think the killings occurred? Debra was supposedly home all day at Tommy and Rachel's house.

Got Me. I have no idea.

 

[Liltxtrndo]

Come on in! I don’t believe it began as an abduction. It could be as easy as let’s go have a hamburger or, as suggested above give them a ride to the car. I could go for that. Ozoner and I finally found a common ground in that honestly you can’t clear any of the above. IMO Cotton and Frances didn’t have hands on. Frances just can’t tell the truth. Again imo she just says what she believes will sound better than the truth in a moment then the web is spun. That doesn’t make you a kidnapper, murderer, or sex trafficker. Just as Tommy writing the letter and telling his own lies doesn’t make him the same. The guy in the California jacket, the same rules apply. I believe they all need to be looked into along with every immediate family member of each girl. I have done a lot of research. You have to start at their immediate circle and work out. I think it’s best to look at all viable options. However, it has to. Make since. Not a lot in this case makes since. Speaking of working outwards, imo Henry Lee Lucas needs to be looked at. The Lyon sisters case is strikingly similar. That whole family was SICK and deeply involved in sex trafficking. He has posed as a security officer. He was known to come through the area during that time period. But, that pesky letter. If we only understood why he wrote it. I just can’t buy he wrote it to get the car back. Fwpd never took custody of it and it feels far fetched. The problem with this case is unless you really dig in deep, anything could have happened. I think when it finally comes to light, we are all going to say why didn’t I think of that? I believe the truth is a lot simpler than we all make it.

I wanted to chime in, especially on the subject of a Security Guard...I was 8 years old when this happened, and Seminary South was the only mall I had ever been too, it was the only mall anywhere near my home town which is just south of Fort Worth...The thing I have racked my brain trying to remember, is if we (my Mom,Dad and little sister) visited at that time. Seminary South had the "South Pole" at Christmas time which was insanely popular and the mall was so packed especially around the Sears store. I remember always entering through Sears, unless going to Murphys which was around the N facing side of the mall and kind of up a hill. You have to think about one mall, at Christmas, serving Tarrant County/Seminary and Felix area which have always been very diverse, like many other areas just due to the size of DFW....but along w/Fort Worth/Tarrant County residents, you had every tiny town that was in surrounding area also at Seminary South. It was a madhouse with what seemed like million mile line for Santa lol There was a steak house toward the back and across a street, at that time and I want to say a Wyatts Cafeteria in same lot as the mall...These to restaurants also drew large crowds but mostly older people or people who could afford the steak house. I wish I could remember the name...I can still see the bldg. Short story long, the holidays would have been really the only time you saw that type of security and they weren't like the little courtesy guys now days at the mall...they would stand there watching the lines and watching the doors for shoplifters. they were not regular employees as far as I remember...so the odds of getting a ride from security in 1974 at Seminary South were pretty much not what they did. They were posted in the mall area not driving around the lot back then and not there on the regular. We went to SS a lot due to school shopping, taking my grandparents when they wanted to go get something that you couldn't get from the little stores closer to our town...I also read that the one girl wanted to be home by 4 to get ready for a party, which makes me think the odds of a newly promised teen girl, missing the Christmas party and the chance to show her ring, are slim to none on purpose at least...There have been incidents for years and even recent years of men following or even hiding under peoples cars...at one mall someone was doing that and cutting womens achilles as they walked up which in turn rendered them unable to walk at all...it's crazy and the holidays seem to make people crazier and meaner in some areas....namely those areas full of people and young women/girls to fall victim to the opportunistic abductor or rapist/murderer.....I intend to re-familiarize myself with the details and look for any new....i did see a few years ago, the brother of one of the young ladies has a dive team and equipment who helped him in finding a car specific to someone, I cannot remember who w/o looking it up but this case has never truly died down completely around here...I just hope one day there will be closure for the families and answers so we can all understand what happened that day.