TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[Pricklykitty]

Thanks for sharing that. I wonder how accurate this is. If so, why was Rachel supposedly wearing a dinner ring? Was it a family heirloom, momento, etc? If I were unhappily married to a jealous husband, wearing a symbol of freedom/independence (read"rebellion") strikes me as rather suicidal, unless hubby doesn't know/care what it symbolizes. It has been stated that Rachel was rather feisty....

Yeah I wish it could be verified. DA was posting on the earlier threads and didn't make any comment or correction to this post, but not sure if I can take that as meaning anything.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I do not know the answer to that. But, I would think that an area as large as Dallas/Fort Worth, would have more than 1.

You're right-- there are a few. I narrowed the search to those in Tarrant County that either have been open (to the public) since before 1973, or, if closed, were in operation at that time.
The City of Arlington Landfill
City of Fort Worth NE Landfill
Fort Worth NC Landfill
Sanifil of Texas
SCA Services of Fort Worth
( all except City of Arlington were found on Closed Landfill Inventory : www.nctcog.org)
Someone local (or with mapping skills)feel free to check me on these, and share which, if any could fit our scenarios involving a landfill. If I've made any mistakes--again, feel free to share.

 

[beubeubeu]

I had remembered reading a description of RT's clothing somewhere, and after much searching turns out it was on thread one!! Ive' posted the text of the message and a link to it for anyone interested. I have been trying to find the article this came from but I get blocked from alot of US sites because I am in the UK so I've not been able to find out where the description came from - like was it LE, family...... I know it's not going to solve what happened, but if accurate it should really be on her missing profile incase it can be linked to any unidentified.


TX - TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #1

...When last seen, Mrs. Trlica was wearing an orange and white striped blouse with high waisted jeans and brown shoes with large heels. She was wearing wedding rings, a gold dinner ring with diamonds and a heart shaped pendant.

Miss Wilson was wearing a yellow T shirt with "Sweet Honesty" written on the front in green lettering, blue hip hugger pants, ....., red and white oxford shoes, and a white gold ... diamond ring

Miss Mosley was last seen wearing a red long sleeved with blue denim pants and red tennis shoes with white toes....

Advocate
Victoria Texas
Monday, April 14, 1975

These threads are really full of valuable information. I remember seeing it once and thinking that it can't be that accurate, but just recently, when I was searching for ANY information about Rachel's clothing description in press articles from the time and other reports about the case I found nothing, just some confusion.

Cause here it is, yellow "sweet honesty" shirt with green lettering. I saw that shirt at least few times - cause since it was bit popular at the time, people were able to provide picture of same exact shirt. Yet... namus says white hoodie with same, green lettering. So did she own both of those pieces of clothing, or it's the same hoodie OR shirt and it got mixed up.
I doubt even more in description of her ring.
Terry was just 15, living with divorced mom and two younger sisters, not rich and not proposing - it was reportedly just a promise ring what he gave Renee that morning. White gold? Diamonds? Tiniest diamond in thin, white gold is at least 100$ now, I doubt he was able to afford something like this then as a teenager. So was that a ring that looked like a diamond in white gold or was that a ring that she was wearing before, and promise ring is not mentioned?
I could swear that I saw a comment, that he wrote somewhere, that ring he gave Renee had a tiny dolphin holding a pendant (?) and that it wasn't very expensive.

 

[beubeubeu]

You're right-- there are a few. I narrowed the search to those in Tarrant County that either have been open (to the public) since before 1973, or, if closed, were in operation at that time.
The City of Arlington Landfill
City of Fort Worth NE Landfill
Fort Worth NC Landfill
Sanifil of Texas
SCA Services of Fort Worth
( all except City of Arlington were found on Closed Landfill Inventory : www.nctcog.org)
Someone local (or with mapping skills)feel free to check me on these, and share which, if any could fit our scenarios involving a landfill. If I've made any mistakes--again, feel free to share.

Can you provide addresses or id numbers of those three:
Fort Worth NC Landfill
SCA Services of Fort Worth
The City of Arlington Landfill
?

 

[beubeubeu]

Browser is breaking on me so I can't really look up for anything.
I managed to locate two:
City of Fort Worth NE Landfill - 6901 RANDOL MILL RD; WITHIN CITY OF FORT WORTH AT 6901 RANDOL MILL ROAD; 32.78 -97.21

and share which, if any could fit our scenarios involving a landfill

Sanifil of Texas - 10550 Tanner Rd, Houston, TX 77041
It's over 250 miles from Fort Worth, 4 hours drive so I doubt it's correct location, but something like that could fit the scenario of the note being eerily accurate and them really "going" to Houston, dead. If by any chance, transmission fluid was classified as hazardous waste and with whatever reason was transported to Houston.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Can you provide addresses or id numbers of those three:
Fort Worth NC Landfill
SCA Services of Fort Worth
The City of Arlington Landfill
?

Fort Worth NC Landfill: ID 217
2500 Brennan Ave.

SCA Services of Fort Worth: ID 1397
(listed as S of Halton City, adjacent to/N of Elliot- Reeder)

City of Arlington Landfill
800 Mosier Valley, Arlington

 Also, Sanifil of TX site I listed was at 8000 Randol Mill Rd

 

[beubeubeu]

 

[beubeubeu]

It's worth noting that (if I haven't mixed up anything):
- claim that Cotton drove Thomas to and back from work comes ONLY from Thomas,
Next door neighbour of the Arnold's was asked about the 23'rd on the 24'th - and then, less than 24 hours after it happened she was confident in seeing Fran multiple times during the day and afternoon, seeing their car not leaving their driveway, and being offered help with setting up the party by Fran.
- claim that Debra drove Thomas to the bowling alley also comes only from Thomas
No mixed up details about her picking him up from there. She did. And she used her car to do so.

There is no friend, buddy, coworker, client no one I could find even mentioned anywhere, in any article, any VI's post that there was someone like that who came forward to publicly state that yeah, he WAS with Thomas on that day, spend some time with him on that day, met him somewhere, worked with him, chatted briefly while picking up/leaving a car at his business. Nothing like that.

There was a claim that Debra was the one to drove him TO the bowling alley, but it doesn't look like it came from Debra.
There was also a claim from Fran - that she was with him at the workshop, but highely unlikely that she did.
She could be covering up for him... that's a possibility. But what we know as a fact, that came from multiple VI and both surviving Arnold's children is that Cotton was abusive and violent. They didn't have happy home life. Seems like both girls did what they could to leave that house as soon as they could.
No idea if Cotton was abusive only towards his daughters, or if Fran was also mistreated, but this is a thing that I considered before, while spamming this thread with my ideas. And that is that women in abusive relationships tend to not behave in a way that would be considered "logical" or "reasonable" by someone who isn't.
I can see her unwillingly giving Thomas alibi and that's not even unlikely scenario.
One way or another, doesn't matter that much cause he didn't take this "alibi" and she backed out of it later too.

He was first called at the bowling alley at 8pm. It's not certain if bowling alley was called before but he wasn't there or couldn't be located. One way or another, that's 8pm.

So in the scenario that he's responsible, he could have even as much as EIGHT hours to meet/locate the girls, commit triple murder, hide their bodies, clean up, dispose of them, come back and show up at the bowling alley like nothing happened.
May be much less, no way of telling how reliable are those Brasilian bloggers who claimed to speak with him - cause there he allegedly talked about heading home to take a shower before getting a lift to the bowling alley from Debra. That could be completely fake.
Eight hours, maybe even over 8 hours of time gap between last sight of the girls and his first confirmed location.
That could give him good, reasonable 2 hours to drive somewhere, drop the bodies, sunk the car, hide or dispose of the barrels.
Two landfills in 10-15 mins drive from the workshop. All five in under and hour long drive from the workshop.

 

[Brightchaser47]

It's worth noting that (if I haven't mixed up anything):
- claim that Cotton drove Thomas to and back from work comes ONLY from Thomas,
Next door neighbour of the Arnold's was asked about the 23'rd on the 24'th - and then, less than 24 hours after it happened she was confident in seeing Fran multiple times during the day and afternoon, seeing their car not leaving their driveway, and being offered help with setting up the party by Fran.
- claim that Debra drove Thomas to the bowling alley also comes only from Thomas
No mixed up details about her picking him up from there. She did. And she used her car to do so.

There is no friend, buddy, coworker, client no one I could find even mentioned anywhere, in any article, any VI's post that there was someone like that who came forward to publicly state that yeah, he WAS with Thomas on that day, spend some time with him on that day, met him somewhere, worked with him, chatted briefly while picking up/leaving a car at his business. Nothing like that.

There was a claim that Debra was the one to drove him TO the bowling alley, but it doesn't look like it came from Debra.
There was also a claim from Fran - that she was with him at the workshop, but highely unlikely that she did.
She could be covering up for him... that's a possibility. But what we know as a fact, that came from multiple VI and both surviving Arnold's children is that Cotton was abusive and violent. They didn't have happy home life. Seems like both girls did what they could to leave that house as soon as they could.
No idea if Cotton was abusive only towards his daughters, or if Fran was also mistreated, but this is a thing that I considered before, while spamming this thread with my ideas. And that is that women in abusive relationships tend to not behave in a way that would be considered "logical" or "reasonable" by someone who isn't.
I can see her unwillingly giving Thomas alibi and that's not even unlikely scenario.
One way or another, doesn't matter that much cause he didn't take this "alibi" and she backed out of it later too.

He was first called at the bowling alley at 8pm. It's not certain if bowling alley was called before but he wasn't there or couldn't be located. One way or another, that's 8pm.

So in the scenario that he's responsible, he could have even as much as EIGHT hours to meet/locate the girls, commit triple murder, hide their bodies, clean up, dispose of them, come back and show up at the bowling alley like nothing happened.
May be much less, no way of telling how reliable are those Brasilian bloggers who claimed to speak with him - cause there he allegedly talked about heading home to take a shower before getting a lift to the bowling alley from Debra. That could be completely fake.
Eight hours, maybe even over 8 hours of time gap between last sight of the girls and his first confirmed location.
That could give him good, reasonable 2 hours to drive somewhere, drop the bodies, sunk the car, hide or dispose of the barrels.
Two landfills in 10-15 mins drive from the workshop. All five in under and hour long drive from the workshop.

So, using this scenario, we have  motive (jealousy, prompted by reports of Rachel/CJG), and opportunity (plenty of time/his whereabouts unverified  reliably--now, we need means (how he did it).
BTW,
Did CA ever state for himself that he was home all day?
Did TT have co-workers or friends? Anyone on the bowling league he was close to?
If DA  was home all day, wouldn't TT have access to her car?

 

[Brightchaser47]

The next- door neighbor reported Fran was around all day, A car never left the driveway. But could someone have picked up CA (even if briefly), unnoticed? According to FA, CA was experiencing "black-out" spells. Was this known/spoken of  before the girls' disappearance? Or was this part of CA's alibi? I'm not trying to be insensitive to a cancer patient, but if there's any way in the universe CA could've been involved, it shouldn't be ruled out.

 

[beubeubeu]

Did CA ever state for himself that he was home all day?
Did TT have co-workers or friends? Anyone on the bowling league he was close to?
If DA  was home all day, wouldn't TT have access to her car?

We don't know that.
We don't know that. We don't know that either.
Last one possible, but improbable considering the circumstances.

And by circumstances I mean: him at this point being deep in business that relies on dealing with multiple cars, so possibly having access to various vehicles.
There were attempts in the past to make things straight with his cars, cause officially he had just this one, there was no recent sale, but he inherited at least one (possibly even TWO) from his parents, while he also had a car during his first marriage. Failed attempts, obviously. Even if the fate of cars owned by Trlica family is perfectly known to LE, he still could have access to some vehicle through the business or through Cotton (meaning, some forgotten old junk sitting behind the workshop, one of those left in case of "maybe" being useful sometime, but not being something that anyone would think about, cause nobody was actually driving it for quite some time).

 

[beubeubeu]

Double post

 

[beubeubeu]

That last alleged sighting of the girls at the mall mentioned at charleyproject is pretty interesting.

The person claimed to came forward with the information days after the disappearance for the first time, and once again, over 25 years later - when this lead was allegedly finally followed by the LE. Then they were able to identify the exact security worker who was seen with the girls (some girls) in his car in 1974.

It was discussed here previously, even more than once, but I don't recall if it was ever stated by someone who visited SS then if security guards had some specific outfits that made it obvious at the first glance that oh, this person is a security guard from this mall - unique and characteristic enough to not be mistaken with any other uniform from someone who just showed up there to do some shopping after finishing their job at another place.
It'd be good thing to know. As well as the accuracy of the report of that sighting. I mean: did that really happened? This way?

I mean: did someone really claimed that about 11:30 pm they manage to whitness the girls (some girls? our girls? by a chance? with high confidence?) sitting in the car of young security guard that caught their eye so much that they were still able to recognize him after so many years?

Cause that would mean about 30 minutes AFTER the mall closed.
So very few cars would still be parking around the SS. I guess that mostly just clerks who were still around.
It'd be AFTER stores were called in search for the gils.
It'd be AFTER multiple family members arrived to the scene.
It'd be AFTER cops showed up to check out the Oldsmobile, likely they were still there.
And on top of that - 11:30 PM. It's not that easy to notice passengers in the car at this time of night - good lighting and pretty short distance would be required.

Allegedly that security guard was identified and questioned about it and he denied that.
But did he even owned a car big enough to fit 4 people in front seat?
If not I wonder - was that whitness somehow mistaken about the time? Date? Guy's identity? Girls identity? I guess that nobody can reasonably expect that now (or even 20 years ago) someone random may be able to tell that oh, it's quite likely that they were three sisters waiting to go home with their brother very late on the day when girls disappeared... and somehow not spotted by anyone else.

Obviously none of our girls could have any known reason to appear calm and relaxed while still at the SS at 11:30pm, but could that sighting possibly suggest that:
- many/majority of people still at the Mall past 11pm on the 23rd were well aware of the girls disappearance? (but if so, then why few days long delay before reporting it for the first time?)
- that whitness knew the girls or the guy?
- that sighting was meant to convince people/LA that girls disappeared much later?

I was at the store this evening. Walked back to my car and while passing few other cars with people inside, even those pretty close to the store's lighting I was barely able to see them. Not to mention recognising any faces, ages, gender... anything. I seriously doubt that just casually walking and not thinking about it I'd be able to recognize people I actually know.
Obviously, all the circumstances may be and probably are quite different from 1974'th Fort Worth, but for myself to even consider paying attention in normal circumstances (meaning: not thinking about this case and not considering this sighting) it'd have to be something that stoods out, is pretty well lit and very close to my car - otherwise no way.

 

[Brightchaser47]

That "sighting" had to be bogus, but what about the one where one of the girls was being forced into a van/service truck, and the witness was told, " she's my wife, it's a family problem" (or something to that effect)? How credible was that one? Was that the same witness who supposedly told the A family, but not LE? That "sighting" is more believable...

 

[beubeubeu]

That "sighting" had to be bogus, but what about the one where one of the girls was being forced into a van/service truck, and the witness was told, " she's my wife, it's a family problem" (or something to that effect)? How credible was that one? Was that the same witness who supposedly told the A family, but not LE? That "sighting" is more believable...

There were three somewhat similar sightings of three girls and one or more guys.
The one mentioned above.
The one mentioned by the clerks who reported (to the A's family) that older woman told them about the sighting (three girls pushed into a van by two men) but despite of public plea from Fran that whitness never came forward or got identified, so only those clerks allegedly spoke to her... in March 1975.
The one you're talking about came from a man who was surprised to see Rachel's picture while visiting A's home (or their neighbours?) years later. He claimed that he was unaware of the disappearance but remembered the sighting cause of the man's reaction, and that he was just visiting Fort Worth then, on that day (and that's why he was so confident in the date).
He remembered some details about the car, but it didn't sounded like same car that older woman was talking about (one was supposed to be a pickup truck vs. van).

If that whitness was able to remember and recognise Rachel, then he shouldn't have that much issue recognising TT, if he was the man. Theoretically...

 

[Brightchaser47]

There were three somewhat similar sightings of three girls and one or more guys.
The one mentioned above.
The one mentioned by the clerks who reported (to the A's family) that older woman told them about the sighting (three girls pushed into a van by two men) but despite of public plea from Fran that whitness never came forward or got identified, so only those clerks allegedly spoke to her... in March 1975.
The one you're talking about came from a man who was surprised to see Rachel's picture while visiting A's home (or their neighbours?) years later. He claimed that he was unaware of the disappearance but remembered the sighting cause of the man's reaction, and that he was just visiting Fort Worth then, on that day (and that's why he was so confident in the date).
He remembered some details about the car, but it didn't sounded like same car that older woman was talking about (one was supposed to be a pickup truck vs. van).

If that whitness was able to remember and recognise Rachel, then he shouldn't have that much issue recognising TT, if he was the man. Theoretically...

I can see why these aren't reliable witness accounts...
I was toying with the idea that perhaps TT and an accomplice  had shown up at the mall (after alleged phone call about Rachel/CJG), and possibly grabbed the girls, with either "CA's been taken to hospital", or "we gotta talk, but not here".
That possibility was brought up previously by someone else. However, he would've had to be really lucky, to be cruising the mall lot, and spot the girls, at just the right time/place. So, that's unlikely.

 

[beubeubeu]

That possibility was brought up previously by someone else. However, he would've had to be really lucky, to be cruising the mall lot, and spot the girls, at just the right time/place. So, that's unlikely.

In random scenario he'd have to be really lucky.
In some scenarios not so much.
Like, for example:
Since it was known to at least some people that girls have a plan to go to the Army Navy Store to get two pairs of jeans for Renee who had a plan of getting matching shirts at the mall he could just wait by their car knowing that they will be back in the car soon. Rachel could have mentioned that while asking him to let her use the car.

Below its just my guess about the car's possible location (+10 years older aerial photo from FW archive)

Judging by those barely visible roofs on the picture below:

Convenient way to spot the girls or their car would be:
- waiting near the Sears' entrance (knowing that Rachel always used that store to start, he could know that and likely would know that since that THE PLACE to go in the neighbourhood).
- waiting near the turn Rachel would be expected to take while heading to the mall (she'd most likely use the usual/same way to get to the Mall that she did previously, making it highly predictable),
- searching for the car by going through all parking spots and starting near Sears' also possible, though the least convenient and that wouldnt explain why girls never showed up for lunch.

 

[beubeubeu]

The scenario here could be as simple as:
Lots of tension in the T's and A's households.
Growing frustration.
Jealousy - about the imaginary or real guys that Rachel could be interested in AND/OR about her plans to start work and grow even more independent.
Him forbidding Rachel from going to the mall/anywhere.
Rachel trying to get as many companions as she could cause she wanted to go and hoped that n their presence TT won't act crazy - including her sister and mother.
We don't know if Debra called him, but we know that Fran spoke with him on the phone (uncertain who called who then, but they spoke for sure).
She would likely mention about Rachel's visit/plans to him, even unconciously.
If he was already at the workshop, he could head straight to the mall, park near the most likely turn for her to take, or near the Sears' entrance and just wait.
Wouldn't be that hard to find them this way.
Then the only thing required for this tragedy to happen would be him forcing/convincing the girls to get into the car with him and head back to the workshop (to close it for the day or something like that) cause what better place to "deal" with her and have a fight away from others.

 

[beubeubeu]

Having an accomplice, having CJG there is IMO not the simplest scenario. It makes it very complicated and bit less likely (why risking and letting an accomplice to live, or not enough time to meet CJG before noon, not to mention being snitched on by someone and having some additional time to wait till TT will get there, will find them/the car, it all makes the timing pretty tight).

Failed marriage with child bride - TT's second failed marriage.
Fear of Rachel being/gettinhg pregnant.
Pattern of marriages lasting few months (few years ago someone listed his marriage/divorce records and it looked like new year = new wife, with next marriage just year after Rachel's disappearance).
Rachel growing up fast, seeking independence, applying for a job.
Him being jealous, frustrated about everything.
Not allowing Rachel to go to the mall (to shop, to get any updates on job application).
17yo jobless, pennyless child wife is like a property vs. employed & independent is a HUGE difference.

 

[Brightchaser47]

The scenario here could be as simple as:
Lots of tension in the T's and A's households.
Growing frustration.
Jealousy - about the imaginary or real guys that Rachel could be interested in AND/OR about her plans to start work and grow even more independent.
Him forbidding Rachel from going to the mall/anywhere.
Rachel trying to get as many companions as she could cause she wanted to go and hoped that n their presence TT won't act crazy - including her sister and mother.
We don't know if Debra called him, but we know that Fran spoke with him on the phone (uncertain who called who then, but they spoke for sure).
She would likely mention about Rachel's visit/plans to him, even unconciously.
If he was already at the workshop, he could head straight to the mall, park near the most likely turn for her to take, or near the Sears' entrance and just wait.
Wouldn't be that hard to find them this way.
Then the only thing required for this tragedy to happen would be him forcing/convincing the girls to get into the car with him and head back to the workshop (to close it for the day or something like that) cause what better place to "deal" with her and have a fight away from others.

The only part of that I really question is why would he leave the car for her, in the first place (whether he got a ride with someone else, or Rachel dropped him off), if he wants her to remain dependent on him?