TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[beubeubeu]

Btw for me it looks like the Oldsmobile was parked there.
Trying to estimate from this picture:

For me it looks like:

But shouldn't this be called "Sears upper lot"?

Aerial photo from Jack White Photograph Collection, University of Texas at Arlington Libraries, car picture provided by the CBS?

 

[Ozoner]

Sorry,  beubeubeu, I goofed posting this. What I meant to say was, although there are many who feel LE was negligent in this case (I'm not condemning or defending), it's time to let that go, and move on, and focus.
It's my sincere personal belief that this case can/will be resolved.

If the prevailing theory is correct, CJG would have been one of the best witnesses to the events leading up to the murders, and he is now dead. Many other witnesses have died as well.

In my opinion, LE should have rolled the dice and tried for a triple-murder conviction without bodies years ago. At some point the perp is going to die, and then it will be too late for justice.

 

[Ozoner]

@Brightchaser47

This is good information on the landfill locations, but where would the funding come from to dig up five landfills looking for three barrels buried half a century ago?

You would have to narrow it down to ones that were known to have been used by the Arnold Transmission shops. Then you'd have to see whether records exist of where hazardous waste could be buried within the landfill.

 

[beubeubeu]

The only part of that I really question is why would he leave the car for her, in the first place (whether he got a ride with someone else, or Rachel dropped him off), if he wants her to remain dependent on him?

He could have a reason to occassionally take another car.
Or leave it to her in case he'd need her to drive somewhere for him.
Or she could tell him that she needs car to visit parents but decided to go to the Mall anyway.

 

[Pricklykitty]

I've wondered if TT told RT she could take the car to the mall but only on condition DA went with her to keep an eye and report back to TT. Rather than not getting out of bed in time, did RT skip out before DA could go along. Ive long doubted that RT was asking her mom to go along on what otherwise seemed to be a fun trip with friends. If DA called and told TT she had been ditched by RT, I can imagine this putting him in a bad mood. She may even have gone to pick up TT to go look for the girls. This is just one train of thought, one of many, I've had and is definitely just my own thoughts, not one I claim to be fact.

 

[Brightchaser47]

@Brightchaser47

This is good information on the landfill locations, but where would the funding come from to dig up five landfills looking for three barrels buried half a century ago?

You would have to narrow it down to ones that were known to have been used by the Arnold Transmission shops. Then you'd have to whether records exist of where hazardous waste could be buried within the landfill.

All good points, Ozoner. One step at a time.
1. Determine all possible landfill locations that fit our timeline/scenario
2. Determine which ones would've/could've been utilized by those businesses (distance, materials accepted, etc)
3. Determine (if possible) what section(s) of said landfill(s) to search
4. Obtain funding/permits to conduct such a search
Some of these steps may seem to be unfeasible, if not impossible. But, it's a starting point for someone. Also, remember-- this is only one scenario. There are other possibilities.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I've wondered if TT told RT she could take the car to the mall but only on condition DA went with her to keep an eye and report back to TT. Rather than not getting out of bed in time, did RT skip out before DA could go along. Ive long doubted that RT was asking her mom to go along on what otherwise seemed to be a fun trip with friends. If DA called and told TT she had been ditched by RT, I can imagine this putting him in a bad mood. She may even have gone to pick up TT to go look for the girls. This is just one train of thought, one of many, I've had and is definitely just my own thoughts, not one I claim to be fact.

Who, besides RA, claims Rachel invited her mother to go shopping? I keep hearing that narrative, but who started it?

 

[Brightchaser47]

If the prevailing theory is correct, CJG would have been one of the best witnesses to the events leading up to the murders, and he is now dead. Many other witnesses have died as well.

In my opinion, LE should have rolled the dice and tried for a triple-murder conviction without bodies years ago. At some point the perp is going to die, and then it will be too late for justice.

He's not dead yet. Sometimes things happen in people's lives that serve as catalysts. It's happened in other cold cases; it could happen with this one-- terminal illness, divorce, etc., can all prompt a person to finally "come clean".

 

[Brightchaser47]

If the prevailing theory is correct, CJG would have been one of the best witnesses to the events leading up to the murders, and he is now dead. Many other witnesses have died as well.

In my opinion, LE should have rolled the dice and tried for a triple-murder conviction without bodies years ago. At some point the perp is going to die, and then it will be too late for justice.

He's not dead yet. Sometimes things happen in people's lives that serve as catalysts. It's happened in other cold cases; it could happen with this one-- terminal illness, divorce, etc., can all prompt a person to finally "come clean".

 

[Brightchaser47]

Double post (argh)

 

[Brightchaser47]

The scenario here could be as simple as:
Lots of tension in the T's and A's households.
Growing frustration.
Jealousy - about the imaginary or real guys that Rachel could be interested in AND/OR about her plans to start work and grow even more independent.
Him forbidding Rachel from going to the mall/anywhere.
Rachel trying to get as many companions as she could cause she wanted to go and hoped that n their presence TT won't act crazy - including her sister and mother.
We don't know if Debra called him, but we know that Fran spoke with him on the phone (uncertain who called who then, but they spoke for sure).
She would likely mention about Rachel's visit/plans to him, even unconciously.
If he was already at the workshop, he could head straight to the mall, park near the most likely turn for her to take, or near the Sears' entrance and just wait.
Wouldn't be that hard to find them this way.
Then the only thing required for this tragedy to happen would be him forcing/convincing the girls to get into the car with him and head back to the workshop (to close it for the day or something like that) cause what better place to "deal" with her and have a fight away from others.

Assuming for a moment that it happened that way, I can see maybe TT managing to get the girls into a vehicle with him. But once they arrive at the shop, then what? He has to  single-handedly control, then kill, then dispose of bodies.
. However, if another member of the A family took him to work, brought him to the mall, and back to the shop....

 

[Pricklykitty]

Who, besides RA, claims Rachel invited her mother to go shopping? I keep hearing that narrative, but who started it?

I know there are so many "facts" in this case that are pretty much impossible to verify if they are indeed facts, untruths, or misrememberings with the passage of time.

 

[Brightchaser47]

If the prevailing theory is correct, CJG would have been one of the best witnesses to the events leading up to the murders, and he is now dead. Many other witnesses have died as well.

In my opinion, LE should have rolled the dice and tried for a triple-murder conviction without bodies years ago. At some point the perp is going to die, and then it will be too late for justice.

LE spoke with CJG before he died. I assume, if he'd admitted to or shared anything, they'd have followed up on it, at some point. So, either his statement was unreliable, or nothing of real value was said. Or, they were unable to proceed any further, for whatever reason.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I know there are so many "facts" in this case that are pretty much impossible to verify if they are indeed facts, untruths, or misrememberings with the passage of time.

I think we can put this one under the heading of "misdirection" (maybe "misremembering"). I seriously doubt Rachel spoke with her mother that morning. In fact, I'm starting to doubt Rachel spoke with any member of her immediate family that morning.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Renee's father commented on Rachel's behavior with CJG at a get-together in the W home ( I can't recall where I heard or saw that). Anyone here recall that incident and what CA's response to that was?

 

[tilomagnet]

Its in the Gone cold podcast. It sounds like RW kinda threw them out of the W's home for openly making out. I dont think it is mentioned though when exactly this happened, which of course is significant. I dont know if TT or CA or anyone else got wind of that episode. However, if thats true (and I trust RW) then it was probably not the only time RT behaved like that and that may have caused TT to snap that day.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Its in the Gone cold podcast. It sounds like RW kinda threw them out of the W's home for openly making out. I dont think it is mentioned though when exactly this happened, which of course is significant. I dont know if TT or CA or anyone else got wind of that episode. However, if thats true (and I trust RW) then it was probably not the only time RT behaved like that and that may have caused TT to snap that day.

Thanks for answering that. Wasn't CJG an acquaintance of TT's? What I don't get is, if CJG wanted to date Renee, why was he messing around with Rachel? Also, when there's mention of a social gathering that Rachel attends, TT seems to be absent (except for maybe the bowling alley). If I'm wrong about that, someone correct me.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Its in the Gone cold podcast. It sounds like RW kinda threw them out of the W's home for openly making out. I dont think it is mentioned though when exactly this happened, which of course is significant. I dont know if TT or CA or anyone else got wind of that episode. However, if thats true (and I trust RW) then it was probably not the only time RT behaved like that and that may have caused TT to snap that day.

I believe that incident occurred on Rachel's birthday, which was about a month or so before the girls went missing.

 

[beubeubeu]

Assuming for a moment that it happened that way, I can see maybe TT managing to get the girls into a vehicle with him. But once they arrive at the shop, then what? He has to  single-handedly control, then kill, then dispose of bodies.
. However, if another member of the A family took him to work, brought him to the mall, and back to the shop....

For me the only logical scenario here is that at this point he wanted to get far away from any relevant whitnesses (like the adults from A's family - cause sounds like all of them had pretty strong personalities: so they could interfere for the Rachel's sake, or don't care about the Rachel that much but think less of him whitnessing his wife disobeying him) to deal with her.
To this point the vision of "dealing with her" would include yelling, some emotional blackmail, maybe some insuts, minor to mild physical assault. With that it wouldn't matter if Renee and Julie knew about it, heard about it or even saw it - it'd not give him any trouble with "the adults" while possibly even working in his advantage, as using their presence to humiliate Rachel in front of them even more than "in private".
His plans would go straight to sewer if she wasn't having that and fought back, having more confidence than ever cause in her mind at least Renee surely mattered as a whitness of his behaviour.

I may be wrong but I don't believe in Debra's involvement - cause it doesn't make sense for me.
Her claim about their engagement not being serious sounds ridiculous... at least until you see the marriage record on this guy. So many marriages don't imply that person takes marriage seriously, not to mention some brief engagement. And the speed! Oh my God...
Just my point of view, but instead of her, being crazy in love with him (despite of - judging by those brief descriptions here and there - having much hotter and way more interesting guys than him) and being blindly loyal to him, over her sister...
I see him, likely wanting to appear as better man that he really was in front of her and growing frustration over having to act and pretend at home as well.

This is what I know, what I whitnessed, what saw many times in life (in toxic relationships that luckily didn't end up with murder). So this is what I see here.

 

[JohnGalt78]

Thanks for answering that. Wasn't CJG an acquaintance of TT's? What I don't get is, if CJG wanted to date Renee, why was he messing around with Rachel? Also, when there's mention of a social gathering that Rachel attends, TT seems to be absent (except for maybe the bowling alley). If I'm wrong about that, someone correct me.

CJG was friends with TM, Julie’s brother.