TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Pricklykitty]

Organized crime involvement is possible. I apologize if this has all been discussed in depth on older threads. Does anyone have knowledge of sites or places to find info on Texas OC during that time period?

This article covers alot from the early days through to the 70's. Lots of names and places to follow up if you have time. Came across it looking into CA's racing days
Cadillacs and Caskets: Fort Worth’s Highway to Hell | Hometown by Handlebar

 

[Brightchaser47]

I don't question that member(s) of the A family may've had ties to OC. What I  do question, is why should OC be so kind as to help "clean up"/dispose of three girls' bodies?

Organized crime groups don't do anything unless there's something in it for them. What would have been in it for them?

I doubt DA's secrecy alone, would be sufficient. We're talking Organized Crime, here. There would have to be some sort of "payment" or "arrangement"--  assurance of silence-- from everyone involved. IMO
It would be interesting to know if either DA's or TT's finances after this showed any indication of blackmail, etc. Did TT have access to anything around that time, or have any connections (maybe through his parents), that would give him "leverage"?
How much were those savings bonds worth that were said to be missing from the Olds (that were allegedly later found)?

 

[FW_Froggy]

This article covers alot from the early days through to the 70's. Lots of names and places to follow up if you have time. Came across it looking into CA's racing days
Cadillacs and Caskets: Fort Worth’s Highway to Hell | Hometown by Handlebar

More interesting reading is if you google " Don Furrh strip clubs". He was the owner of the strip club where DA worked in 1974 (Gino's).

 

[Brightchaser47]

There's been a lot of discussion about the theory that TT killed Rachel in a jealous rage, provoked by either DA, or Julie "tattling" on Rachel (regarding her being seen with CJG at the Mall). We've heard statements about Rachel's inappropriate behavior toward CJG, on at least one other occasion. PI James would have us believe Rachel was "interacting" with everyone but her husband.
However (unless I missed it somewhere), we  haven't been given any credible statements that would suggest that TT knew about any of that, to give him  (jealous)  motive, to begin with. Aside from maybe their bowling league, I get the impression TT and Rachel  didn't have many friends in common.
We do, however, have some statements that would give  Rachel reason to be upset with TT.
1. Alleged love letter from DA to TT
2. Allegations TT assaulted two other females, one of whom was a cousin of Rachel's (was this before, during, or after Rachel?)
I've mentioned this before, but maybe Rachel confronted TT (or caught him with someone else), and it escalated, and people got hurt.
Maybe it wasn't about TT "finding out" about CJG, but Rachel finding out about the "other woman/women" TT was messing around with (or forcing himself on).

 

[Brightchaser47]

As for what happened to the bodies...
1. Transmission fluid barrels
This requires TT to either
a. have the shop all to himself (and
possibly an accomplice)
b. bribe or intimidate his employees
to secrecy (highly unlikely)
Also, depends on
1. the type of barrels/drums used
(sealed/funnel top,open top,etc)
2. availability of empties
3. service truck to take drums
(containing bodies) to
appropriate landfill to
dispose of them
Note: According to Verified Insiders, LE did question TT about shop practices, regarding drums/barrels, long ago-- presumably, nothing came of it

2. Car in a lake
This requires the girls to obediently
accept a head-bashing, strangling, etc.
(IMO) before being thrown in a car, in a lake
(unless TT owns a handgun with a
silencer-- then I might buy this one)
This also requires him to catch a ride, explain how/why he's afoot

On an earlier thread, someone suggested carbon monoxide poisoning (plugging the tailpipe). I'd actually buy that. That could work in a number of scenarios...

 

[FW_Froggy]

As for what happened to the bodies...
1. Transmission fluid barrels
This requires TT to either
a. have the shop all to himself (and
possibly an accomplice)
b. bribe or intimidate his employees
to secrecy (highly unlikely)
Also, depends on
1. the type of barrels/drums used
(sealed/funnel top,open top,etc)
2. availability of empties
3. service truck to take drums
(containing bodies) to
appropriate landfill to
dispose of them
Note: According to Verified Insiders, LE did question TT about shop practices, regarding drums/barrels, long ago-- presumably, nothing came of it

2. Car in a lake
This requires the girls to obediently
accept a head-bashing, strangling, etc.
(IMO) before being thrown in a car, in a lake
(unless TT owns a handgun with a
silencer-- then I might buy this one)
This also requires him to catch a ride, explain how/why he's afoot

On an earlier thread, someone suggested carbon monoxide poisoning (plugging the tailpipe). I'd actually buy that. That could work in a number of scenarios...

Also remember according to verified insider and RA he (TT) passed three lie detector tests (one being 20 years later).

 

[Brightchaser47]

Also remember according to verified insider and RA he (TT) passed three lie detector tests (one being 20 years later).

Found an interesting article, "How to Pass a Lie Detector Test" on ThoughtCo.com.
Also, was TT notified prior to taking the polygraphs? I'm not implying guilt or innocence, just looking at possibilities.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Found an interesting article, "How to Pass a Lie Detector Test" on ThoughtCo.com.
Also, was TT notified prior to taking the polygraphs? I'm not implying guilt or innocence, just looking at possibilities.

Hopefully DA can see this article so she can pass one.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Hopefully DA can see this article so she can pass one.

She says she passed both (FWPD 2002, FBI 2003, IIRC). According to others on here, her results were "inconclusive"--didn't indicate clear guilt  or innocence.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

As for what happened to the bodies...
1. Transmission fluid barrels
This requires TT to either
a. have the shop all to himself (and
possibly an accomplice)
b. bribe or intimidate his employees
to secrecy (highly unlikely)
Also, depends on
1. the type of barrels/drums used
(sealed/funnel top,open top,etc)
2. availability of empties
3. service truck to take drums
(containing bodies) to
appropriate landfill to
dispose of them
Note: According to Verified Insiders, LE did question TT about shop practices, regarding drums/barrels, long ago-- presumably, nothing came of it

2. Car in a lake
This requires the girls to obediently
accept a head-bashing, strangling, etc.
(IMO) before being thrown in a car, in a lake
(unless TT owns a handgun with a
silencer-- then I might buy this one)
This also requires him to catch a ride, explain how/why he's afoot

On an earlier thread, someone suggested carbon monoxide poisoning (plugging the tailpipe). I'd actually buy that. That could work in a number of scenarios...

I think the most likely scenario was the murders happened at the house and the bodies were disposed of via the barrels over the Christmas period. The DJ friend moved the bodies from the house to the shop on the evening of the 23rd December. Again JMO.

 

[Brightchaser47]

The DJ friend moved the bodies from the house to the shop on the evening of the 23rd December. Again JMO.

Assuming SM  was there, there are only two possible ways this happened (IMO).
1. TT gave DA and SM the shop keys (and instructions), before catching a ride to the bowling alley. It would have to have occurred while TT was bowling, because prior to that, DA was supposedly fielding phone calls about the missing girls, and  after that, DA picked TT up from the bowling alley.
Sometime after that, CA could theoretically have driven to the shop (having let his family believe he was going to the Mall parking lot), and taken it from there...
2. The girls meet their end at Minot, and the bodies are kept in the garage, till later that night. While DA and TT are accounted for (at the mall parking lot), CA lets his family think  he's headed that way, but instead heads to Minot, where he picks up (or catches a ride with) SM and the bodies, and they head to the shop to stash them till after Christmas.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Assuming SM  was there, there are only two possible ways this happened (IMO).
1. TT gave DA and SM the shop keys (and instructions), before catching a ride to the bowling alley. It would have to have occurred while TT was bowling, because prior to that, DA was supposedly fielding phone calls about the missing girls, and  after that, DA picked TT up from the bowling alley.
Sometime after that, CA could theoretically have driven to the shop (having let his family believe he was going to the Mall parking lot), and taken it from there...
2. The girls meet their end at Minot, and the bodies are kept in the garage, till later that night. CA lets his family think he's headed to the mall parking lot, but instead, heads to Minot, where he picks up (or catches a ride with) SM and the bodies, and they head to the shop to stash them till after Christmas.

I would go with option 2...but not with CA. I don't rule him out, but due to the 'Runaway' Letter, he would not be top of my suspect list.

I have it correct, there was a big unaccounted period of time between a certain person leaving the bowling alley and arriving at the Mall ? I think the bodies were moved during this time frame.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I would go with option 2...but not with CA. I don't rule him out, but due to the 'Runaway' Letter, he would not be top of my suspect list.

IMO, TT could still have written the letter, possibly to buy time for CA/ SM and "cleanup" at the shop, rather than Minot. I don't believe the girls' deaths were necessarily "messy" (if they were in fact killed), but I  can picture there being some "cleanup" involved in putting bodies in drums/barrels and rearranging them around the shop (especially if any of them were "drowned", or put in barrels that weren't empty, as some have speculated). CA would've been familiar with the floor plan/business practices, and SM would've provided muscle (assuming he was of at least average stature). Then, it's a matter of ensuring silence/"cooperation" from all involved parties. That's where possible blackmail/"payoffs" come in.

I have it correct, there was a big unaccounted period of time between a certain person leaving the bowling alley and arriving at the Mall ? I think the bodies were moved during this time frame.

Maybe. I tend to think that during that time, TT was making arrangements with ST for little Shawn, who we're told was at the bowling alley from 8:30 pm till (?)
Also, I think time was needed, at this point, to tie up any "loose ends", "negotiations", etc., before facing the families...

 

[beubeubeu]

Your still mixed up. ST's brother and his wife didn't live on Minot till after the disappearance.

Thanks for making it clear.

 

[beubeubeu]

I don't question that member(s) of the A family may've had ties to OC. What I  do question, is why should OC be so kind as to help "clean up"/dispose of three girls' bodies?

I seriously can't imagine any scenario in which it would make sense with DA.
Cause okay, possible, why not. Many things are possible. Let's say that she was with whatever reason not just a random girl working at one of these clubs, trying to support herself but significantly connected to the OC members or even bosses.

Then why she ended up living with Rachel and TT? Why didn't she took advantage of these connections in order to get some room/flat/home alone?

Maybe cause abduction was planned and she planted herself there to track her sister, waiting for the perfect moment when she will be with other girls, valuable in human trafficking business?

Her assumed connections should significantly decrease the probability of her being so, so much into TT that she would just straight away jump into helping him cover up for triple murder of minors. What kind of man, raised in the 50's and 60's (or even earlier) and involved in OC would be so chilled about the girl he's fond of or sort of loyal to, that he'd continue supporting her and covering up for her while she'd suddenly request help with hiding bodies of three minors that her ex fiance, now BIL just murdered?

So maybe back to grand scheme with planned abduction with her being planted there to help.
She did that, all tracks covered, full success. Then what?
What could it be there for her to keep her mouth shut? Monetary gain - possibly. All thing being some form of repaying her debts - possibly, maybe, huge stretch but maybe. Maybe cold blooded revenge on Rachel for stealing such a gem-boy from her. Maybe some other unforeseen reasons. Maybe.
But then what could be there for these OC members/bosses in keeping some (still) freaking unstable teenager with drug issues alive and basically free of their infuence? Maybe she wouldn't know much of their secrets, maybe she would be (in the scenario) unable to prove anything, cause any realistic damage or issue. Maybe. But in such scenario those people would be the only ones there fully aware that she's capable of selling her sister and two other kids for slavery, sending them for torture and death, or being involved in their murders, or having no issue with casually helping with covering up for her BIL who just randomly felt like murdering three minors.

IF DA were that kind of girl, with such... personality, of basically next level psycho, then - at least IMO, only completely dumb and insane person would let her go and leave the ties with OC.
Cause she would either have extemely valuable potential in OC business - so just all the reasons to give her whatever she wants to keep her around and engaged in more illegal activities, more schemes...
... or she would be potentially dangerous like hell for them, no gain in keeping her alive, just risk, big risk, serious risk and unnecessary risk.

Long story short, I don't see OC involvement through DA as possible. Thinking about it causes me to picture some poorly written villain from the crime-action novel.

IMO the only realistically probable ways in which OC could be involved in this would be:
1. Maybe even through DA, but withher being used as an excuse to show up around and fish foe some info, watch Rachel without DA's knowledge that there is some abduction/murder plan behind this,
2. Unrelated to the family members at all.
3. Through a person with long lasting ties with OC, with long established loyalty, someone who already managed to prove it left and right that they're not causing trouble for OC, keeping their job done and mouth shut.

I doubt DA's secrecy alone, would be sufficient. We're talking Organized Crime, here. There would have to be some sort of "payment" or "arrangement"--  assurance of silence-- from everyone involved. IMO
It would be interesting to know if either DA's or TT's finances after this showed any indication of blackmail, etc. Did TT have access to anything around that time, or have any connections (maybe through his parents), that would give him "leverage"?
How much were those savings bonds worth that were said to be missing from the Olds (that were allegedly later found)?

There is no indication that either of them had multiple-murder-related-blackmail kind of money.

 

[beubeubeu]

There's been a lot of discussion about the theory that TT killed Rachel in a jealous rage, provoked by either DA, or Julie "tattling" on Rachel (regarding her being seen with CJG at the Mall). We've heard statements about Rachel's inappropriate behavior toward CJG, on at least one other occasion. PI James would have us believe Rachel was "interacting" with everyone but her husband.
However (unless I missed it somewhere), we  haven't been given any credible statements that would suggest that TT knew about any of that, to give him  (jealous)  motive, to begin with. Aside from maybe their bowling league, I get the impression TT and Rachel  didn't have many friends in common.

Allegedly Renee's father snitched about her alleged inappropriate behaviour to CA.
If that's correct, it leaves me (alone) with not as much trust in this guy's insights.
He appears nothing but observant, clever and sharp minded in the interviews and articles.
I can totally see a decent guy, a father, seeing his daughter's young, married friend making out (or doing whatever) with another guy having a stern talk with her in private, or expressing his disappointment in such behaviour.
But to snitch on her to her abusive father?
Oh, maybe he wasn't aware... so became sharp, bright and observant only after his daughter disappeared?
Or maybe families weren't close enough for him to be able to notice. Yeah, maybe, but if they weren't close, why bother stage IV cancer patient with reason to worry?
Unless there were some local customs I'm not familiar with, it doesn't make sense for me.

But... since his words were used as main source for theories that 14yo Renee was fooling around with multiple guys, cheating on her boyfriend and interested in dating other guys while accepting promise rings from him (which is VERY FAR from what he was actually saying, IMO) then I'd say that it seems quite probable that story with Rachel could be as twisted by other people who added their own narrative, as these ridiculous claims about Renee's promiscuty.

Maybe it wasn't.
But is there a quote from someone who was actually there and whitnessed that available anywhere? Not just a statement from someone who heard about it, but like a direct statement, description, anything?

Of course even it it happen exactly like that, it could mean something or nothing.
TT could be unaware, as you say.
But jealousy and gossip never needed any backing in reality to cause damage.

We do, however, have some statements that would give  Rachel reason to be upset with TT.
1. Alleged love letter from DA to TT
2. Allegations TT assaulted two other females, one of whom was a cousin of Rachel's (was this before, during, or after Rachel?)
I've mentioned this before, but maybe Rachel confronted TT (or caught him with someone else), and it escalated, and people got hurt.
Maybe it wasn't about TT "finding out" about CJG, but Rachel finding out about the "other woman/women" TT was messing around with (or forcing himself on).

If TT assaulted two other girls and faced no legal or social consequences at the time, then why any other assault would cause him any fear? "She's lying" or "she wanted it" most likely would be all the defense he needed.
Maybe unless he'd make a mistake of assaulting a girl who had someone who would believe her over him, but still, if he did that in the past multiple times and got away with it as almost all guys did at the time, why would it cause him any concern?

 

[FW_Froggy]

Anybody know if DA continued to dance after her 1st. marriage or was her long dancing career from Dallas to Houston ended a month and a half after the disappearance?

 

[beubeubeu]

I have it correct, there was a big unaccounted period of time between a certain person leaving the bowling alley and arriving at the Mall ? I think the bodies were moved during this time frame.

Not that big, if he left around 8:30 PM and showed up at the Mall around 11:00 PM
That's about 150 mins
- 5 mins to get into the car at the bowling alley,
- 30 mins to drive straight to the SS,
Leaves bit less than 2 hours. Certainly long enough to dump bodies somewhere but with an attempt to look around for them maybe heading home on foot, calling someone, stopping at A's home to get more info, maybe walking around SS's parking lot to look around.
We don't know how much of that (if anything) happened, it could. That gap in the official story may be caused by somebodys decision for long time ago, that there is no point in detailing family members actiities in such a detail if nothing seemingly important to the case happened.
Possible that literally no one but TT, or no one but TT and DA knew what he/they were doing during that time.
BUT, it would be extremely valuable in timeline to know things like:
- at what time Renee's and Julie's parents started calling and asking for the girls?
- who and at what time called Rachel's parents first?
- how many calls and at what time were made to Rachel's parents?
- who and when called house at Minot to ask if girls are there?
- was it just one call or more? how many calls, who called when?
- was there anyone waiting by the home at Minot between 8 PM and midnight?
Apart from the last question, all those things almost certainly had to happen at some point. Knowing the answers would paint much clearer picture about the events of that evening, they aren't mentioned so maybe TT was interacting with people during that time gap, but it just isnt mentioned anywhere.

 

[beubeubeu]

Anybody know if DA continued to dance after her 1st. marriage or was her long dancing career from Dallas to Houston ended a month and a half after the disappearance?

I don't know but how many pregnancies she had till before that first marriage - two or more?
Cause if she quit that may be cause she wasn't fit enough anymore to do profitable dancing.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Maybe cause abduction was planned and she planted herself there to track her sister, waiting for the perfect moment when she will be with other girls, valuable in human trafficking business?

Renee had gotten permission just the day before to go on this outing and Julie was a last-minute addition. DA allegedly worked the night before. So, she really didn't have opportunity (or reason) to "make arrangements" for a multiple abduction.

Maybe cold blooded revenge on Rachel for stealing such a gem-boy from her.

She had her chance with "gem-boy".

Maybe some other unforeseen reasons. Maybe.

I do wonder if DA felt pressured to compete with Rachel in alleviating her parents' financial burdens. They'd successfully married off Rachel to TT, who had given them the ability to purchase their home.
Also, I've been wondering if it really was Rachel's idea that DA come stay with her and TT. Who's the source of  that story?