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Good point about names being omitted on the letter. The author(s) would not have had a clue who Julie was.
TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8
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Good point about names being omitted on the letter. The author(s) would not have had a clue who Julie was.
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Agree, but I like to think they were trying to explore any/all possibilities, when remains were found. jmo
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I'm not so sure. IMO, if whoever wrote the letter knew Rachel, they knew Renee. Rachel and Renee were very close. If they knew Renee, they also possibly knew Julie. Renee was dating Julie's older brother (when teens are dating, the whole world knows, imo) and we're told she sometimes babysat Julie. These kids and their families didn't live in different towns-- they were within several blocks of each other. So, imo, it's a fair consideration that anyone closely associated with Rachel would also have an idea who Julie was, although I do believe relationships between families and individuals have been denied/seriously downplayed in this case. jmo
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At one time, Rachel's and Renee's families camped together. According to Renee's dad, they didn't see much of Rachel after her marriage, which I think bothered him. Rachel and TT got married in June, which would've been the start of summer vacation/camping season, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know whether the families were still camping together at this point, but if they were, it's very possible that TT met with them at the campsite at least a bit to socialize and see Rachel (which would've been just prior to their marriage). We don't know who all was there (i.e. DA), or talked about. IMO, there could well have been discussion of Julie's family, as again, Renee was dating Julie's brother. Trust me, parents camping together would've discussed their kids! My point being, if TT was there at any point, it's very possible he knew of Julie's family/Julie (likewise with DA). jmo
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How old were TT and Julie's brother? Is it possible they knew each other regardless of Renee and Julie connections? And do we know if Rachel had a recnt ex-boyfriend before she married TT? It seems like that relationship was on a fast track? It'd be interesting if there was a change Rachel was pregnant.
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TT was 22, Julie's brother was 15, IIRC. Anything's possible, imo. I honestly don't believe Rachel ever had a boyfriend before meeting/marrying TT. I've never heard mention of one. It was absolutely on a fast track, by all accounts. It was rumored she was pregnant, but to my knowledge, unconfirmed. Supposedly she was only 6-8 weeks along. IMO, only someone who knew her really well or had access to her medical records (and had reason to check) would know that. JMO
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Interesting. I don't know that testing in the 70s would show a pregnancy that early, but I have no doubt she could be pregnant and assume so on her own.
An unwanted pregnancy (by TT, his family, her family, or everyone) seems like the most logical reason for a motive to at least her disappearance. I doubt the shopping trip was a ruse and instead she and Renee took Julie along to an abortion that went wrong. But the time frame does lend itself to the seemingly urgent nature of the whole thing.
If pregnancy was the catalyst, it sounds more like she was taken and roughed up to lose it and it went too far, or was killed outright on the spur of the moment. Renee and Julie were either actual witnesses or heard a name, saw a license plate...something identifiable and were eliminated. It seems more realistic than a 3 victim stranger abduction or trafficking. It could also explain why they would leave the mall w/ someone they knew, intending to be right back. That someone might have only been the ride to wherever whatever happened, happened. But it had to be that day with an unexpected Julie and possibly Renee...so maybe this was a local hit. If someone were paid to take care of Rachel, that person might have to act then or never.
Do we know any of TT's acquaintances or people he worked with that also knew Rachel?
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I get that, but she would've had to tell someone- doctor, husband, etc- just prior to going missing, for anyone else to know (or we wouldn't be discussing it).
I see an unwanted pregnancy as possible motive for an abortion, but not motive for Rachel to disappear, if you're referring to her running away. If you're meaning that someone made her disappear (i.e. killed her) that would make sense if she was pregnant by someone other than her husband, and that someone told her to get an abortion to cover it up and she refused.
Rachel had allegedly had an abortion in a hospital, prior to getting married. IF this took place, it means it was done by a professional just months prior, so it seems unlikely to me that the trio would go that day, meet someone at a very busy shopping mall parking lot to grab a ride to a back-alley operation.
If Rachel was indeed "roughed up" over an unwanted pregnancy, imo, it was because the man couldn't afford to have it known he was the father and Rachel threatened to expose him and/or refused to abort the baby.
Rachel and TT were both on a bowling league. Since Rachel's husband and father worked together, I've often wondered whether Rachel was acquainted with any of the shop employees. Actually, that goes for sis, too.
All speculation and jmo.
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Someone came up with the hypothesis that the three girls were murdered and buried at some unknown location inside the mall. Particularly I do not believe that, but one thing is almost certain to me: The mall security was somewhat involved.
ChuckChaplin66
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Hello all,
I wanted to chime in with my two cents and postulate a theory. Keep in mind this is completely a ‘what if’ scenario, and by no means am I saying this is what actually happened or who did it. But it does tie together a lot of things that have been said\heard\speculated. I think it checks a few of the boxes.
It seems pretty certain that the Missing Trio had TT and Rachel’s car the day they went missing. That would mean that TT would have had to have had an alternate means to get around that day, whether he went to work or not. Let’s say for the sake of argument that he was in a van, either driving or riding with someone else. It’s been speculated that Rachel may have been going shopping against his wishes. That was potentially one reason why she had asked so many others to go, to be around in case he caused a scene at some point.
Now, let’s say he did go to work and called the house to talk to her. Of course she wasn’t home, and perhaps DA told him so and informed him of where she went. What if this set him off as Rachel figured it would, and he immediately decides to go find her. At this point he either takes the hypothesized van or hooks a ride in one, and heads for Seminary South.
Once there,he or they drive around until they locate the car. He/they park close by to watch until the girls come out, not wanting to go into the mall itself and cause a public scene. Once Rachel, Renee and Julie do come out, it’s quite possible that Vern was still with them, if he had met up with them as is believed. Once TT sees this he is sent over the edge, and he gets out and either herds Rachel or all three into the van, so he can ‘give her what’s coming’. Remember there was a witness that came forward later stating that he had seen a man pushing a girl into a van and telling the witness that it was a ‘family matter’.
Once inside the van, the mother of all arguments breaks out between TT and Rachel. At this point it doesn’t take much for it to get physical. Perhaps she was hit hard enough to kill her. Perhaps one or both of the other girls tried to jump in and help and got murdered as well. When some people are in a blind rage they cannot control their actions. Or maybe the other two weren’t killed right away but dealt with shortly after.
So now we have a van with anywhere from one to three bodies. TT or his driving buddy take off (if they hadn’t already) and begin to formulate a plan to get rid of the bodies. Somehow Billy Simpson comes up, since he has wrecking yard and digging equipment. TT decides to take the van to the shop where he works, put the bodies in barrels, and dispose of the barrels in a few days when it’s safe to do so.
He returns home and maybe he tells DA what happened and maybe not. But he knows he is going to have to buy a little time to dispose of evidence, so he writes the letter. The letter was almost certainly never in the alleged envelope.
LE buys the contents of the letter at first and gives TT the wished for amount of time to do what he needs to do. After Christmas Day he returns to the shop and somehow disposes of the barrels. Given that LE has supposedly been to the Simpson property to look, and the remark was made by a confederate of Cotton that “Billy Simpson died in prison. Now they’ll never find those girls”, it’s a fair bet that they are or at least were there. I don’t know how big that property is or was, but if it’s at all possible they could still be there then that’s where I would focus.
As I said, this is all ‘what if’. But since the crime scene was a van in this scenario, that would explain why no crime scene was ever found. I remember quite well when this happened. I was 8 years old and living in Fort Worth. Still do. And this case always struck close to me because I was about the same age as Julie. I believe this scenario is fairly believable, and is based on the whole letter conspiracy. To me, the letter points in one direction as to who is the culprit. And this case has gotten so bloated with misinformation and disinformation and allegations of serial killers and trafficking, that I think a basic and easier explanation has gotten lost. Of course there are a couple of points in my hypothesis that could be challenged. I realize that.
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts on what I’ve laid out here, I’d be interested.
I wanted to chime in with my two cents and postulate a theory. Keep in mind this is completely a ‘what if’ scenario, and by no means am I saying this is what actually happened or who did it. But it does tie together a lot of things that have been said\heard\speculated. I think it checks a few of the boxes.
It seems pretty certain that the Missing Trio had TT and Rachel’s car the day they went missing. That would mean that TT would have had to have had an alternate means to get around that day, whether he went to work or not. Let’s say for the sake of argument that he was in a van, either driving or riding with someone else. It’s been speculated that Rachel may have been going shopping against his wishes. That was potentially one reason why she had asked so many others to go, to be around in case he caused a scene at some point.
Now, let’s say he did go to work and called the house to talk to her. Of course she wasn’t home, and perhaps DA told him so and informed him of where she went. What if this set him off as Rachel figured it would, and he immediately decides to go find her. At this point he either takes the hypothesized van or hooks a ride in one, and heads for Seminary South.
Once there,he or they drive around until they locate the car. He/they park close by to watch until the girls come out, not wanting to go into the mall itself and cause a public scene. Once Rachel, Renee and Julie do come out, it’s quite possible that Vern was still with them, if he had met up with them as is believed. Once TT sees this he is sent over the edge, and he gets out and either herds Rachel or all three into the van, so he can ‘give her what’s coming’. Remember there was a witness that came forward later stating that he had seen a man pushing a girl into a van and telling the witness that it was a ‘family matter’.
Once inside the van, the mother of all arguments breaks out between TT and Rachel. At this point it doesn’t take much for it to get physical. Perhaps she was hit hard enough to kill her. Perhaps one or both of the other girls tried to jump in and help and got murdered as well. When some people are in a blind rage they cannot control their actions. Or maybe the other two weren’t killed right away but dealt with shortly after.
So now we have a van with anywhere from one to three bodies. TT or his driving buddy take off (if they hadn’t already) and begin to formulate a plan to get rid of the bodies. Somehow Billy Simpson comes up, since he has wrecking yard and digging equipment. TT decides to take the van to the shop where he works, put the bodies in barrels, and dispose of the barrels in a few days when it’s safe to do so.
He returns home and maybe he tells DA what happened and maybe not. But he knows he is going to have to buy a little time to dispose of evidence, so he writes the letter. The letter was almost certainly never in the alleged envelope.
LE buys the contents of the letter at first and gives TT the wished for amount of time to do what he needs to do. After Christmas Day he returns to the shop and somehow disposes of the barrels. Given that LE has supposedly been to the Simpson property to look, and the remark was made by a confederate of Cotton that “Billy Simpson died in prison. Now they’ll never find those girls”, it’s a fair bet that they are or at least were there. I don’t know how big that property is or was, but if it’s at all possible they could still be there then that’s where I would focus.
As I said, this is all ‘what if’. But since the crime scene was a van in this scenario, that would explain why no crime scene was ever found. I remember quite well when this happened. I was 8 years old and living in Fort Worth. Still do. And this case always struck close to me because I was about the same age as Julie. I believe this scenario is fairly believable, and is based on the whole letter conspiracy. To me, the letter points in one direction as to who is the culprit. And this case has gotten so bloated with misinformation and disinformation and allegations of serial killers and trafficking, that I think a basic and easier explanation has gotten lost. Of course there are a couple of points in my hypothesis that could be challenged. I realize that.
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts on what I’ve laid out here, I’d be interested.
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I agree with you that they weren't buried inside the Mall
However, while I don't see mall security being involved for the following reasons :
1. I am only about 60/40 on them being at the Mall that day.
2. The Runaway Letter. If mall security are involved I don't see them writing a letter stating thatt he missing girl's car is at his place of employment.
I don't know about acquaintances of TT or shop workers but I do believe Rachel was acquainted with people her sister knew. I'm wary of most information coming from the PI's in this case but I do think James got it right when he said that Rachel was in DA's circle of friends. According to one of TT's insiders speaking on his behalf here TT at first suspected DA's ex could be involved. Now whether TT really believed this or was just saying this depends on if he himself was involved but either way they must have been somehow associated in my opinion. And then there's the fact that Rachel married her sisters ex fiance. Things like this gives credence to what James said and I think it's likely that DA regularly introduced Rachel to people that she knew.
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That's very interesting. I've had doubts that Rachel had many friends of her own, besides Renee. It's an interesting thought that a married 17 yr old driving to and from school with a 14 yr old bestie, would be associating with the adult friends of her 19 yr old sis (and other bestie). That certainly paints the picture of a far less sheltered and restricted life than I've thought! It also presents the distinct possibility that Renee knew some of DA's friends as well, imo.
But which "ex"? There was the dj from Houston, whom DA had known for a couple years (and allegedly lived with about a month prior to the trio's disappearing). Then there's the guy from Dallas she was allegedly fighting with--EC, the musican; the reason she claimed to be staying with Rachel/TT, and whom she supposedly returned to after the girls went missing. Rachel likely knew or knew of both these men. Renee might've known of them. However, I doubt either of them had any involvement. Either there was an "ex" we don't know about, or it was just a diversion, imo.
That could be, and if so how did TT feel about that? He's often painted as jealous, controlling, etc. I don't see a jealous, controlling husband having a problem with Rachel associating with VB, yet being fine with the caliber of men DA would've introduced her to....js
Another thought- DA is painted as manipulative. If there's truth in that, could her very brief engagement to TT have been a ploy to manipulate another man? Although we're told DA and Rachel were very close, would she in desperation have used her sister as leverage for something? jmo
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I was always under the impression that it was the one from Dallas.
Maybe if it was always under the guise of being DA's boyfriend?.
Or even if it really was her boyfriend we see she didn't mind handing them down.
I don't know if it would even have to be in desperation.
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Well, if so, and if he was the musician we're told he was, either she fed TT a line (and he believed it), or TT was lying, using the guy as diversion. If DA lied to TT, he evidently didn't know the guy well enough to question what he was being told and she apparently wasn't concerned about the police checking it out. Unless she gambled on being gone with the wind before they did (which she was). It doesn't really make sense for TT to use the guy as a cover, since he (TT) stayed put for awhile after the disappearance; the police could've easily checked his story and caught the lie.
DA seemed to go for older guys, so I don't see that working with VB. But I'm not so sure VB was strictly into girls (despite what we're told), so I don't see him as the threat to TT that others do. I know it's a popular theory--TT being jealous of VB. But it was Renee's father who allegedly suspected VB right away and went looking for him-- not Rachel's husband. jmo
Ouch. If half of what we've been told about Rachel's family is true (and that's about what I believe--half), she probably felt like marriage to TT would finally give her a decent life, even if marrying him wasn't her idea. Saddens me that she may well have continued to be a pawn in the A family chess game, even after marriage. Regardless of what she may/may not have been guilty of, I'm sure she hoped for a different life than what she got. jmo
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I agree the odds are this was domestic, at least at first.
But depending on how rageful TT was that Rachel went to the mall, especially against his will, would he not have had the self-control to 'teach her a lesson" once she got home...with no witnesses, and certainly not 2 other missing girls to shine an even bigger spotlight on the whole incident? Most important, if DA told TT that Rachel went to the mall, did she know (and then tell TT) that Rachel was with Renee and Julie? I'd think that would give him pause, but if he didn't know, he might've been past the point of common sense by the time he got to the mall. Side note - did VB say anything about any of this?
I think it's possible he grabbed Rachel "for a chat" and Renee and Julie left with someone else they felt comfortable with. In the time before cell phones, they must have reconvened and perhaps TT let the 2nd driver know Rachel died, accidently or not and the witnesses to TT at the mall (now in car 2) had to be eliminated. Could that 2nd driver have been DA, not knowing how this would play out? Renee and Julie left the mall with her to meet back up at the T house and that is when DA became involved, but was not the perpetrator, and Renee and Julie were killed? It's always been said that DA knows more that she said (true in this scenario), but also said she didn't harm anyone (also true in this scenario). If they reconvened at the T house, TT may have told the 2nd driver to go inside or even scram and told Renee and Julie he'd take them home as Rachel had already gone in. The 2nd driver may not have known Rachel was already dead/seriously injured in car 1, or was in the house already deceased or killed later. I've always assumed all 3 were killed at the same time, potentially in front of each other, but in this case, either Renee and Julie went into the house to say bye to Rachel and were killed there, or went with TT to their own demise.
It seems TT would want to get Rachel's car out of the mall but ran out of time and figured they'd be looking for the trio before the party that night so it had to be left there. Do we know if DA had her own key to the car?
For her to convince TT of this there would have to be either an association or the potential for one. If Rachel lived the sheltered life that some think, other than a forcible abduction from the mall which isn't likely, this would take a whole lot of explaining to someone that knew her well.
The point I was trying to make is I believe it's possible that Rachel ran in some of the same circles as DA. JMO.
Maybe I should have snipped VB from your post. I was talking about the other caliber of men. I don't know about VB, he may have a lot to do with this or may have absolutely nothing to do with it.
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I would think placed in a outbound truck at a loading dock would be more likely if they were killed at the mall but I don't think that's where it happened. It is possible that mall security was involved though.
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