TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

  • #841
Thanks for this.
My question on Rachel's report is whether her sister was the last to see her or just who gave the report. Because Rachel was supposedly last seen at "home." But her clothing at the time was "unknown." That recollection might not be as thorough as Renee's mother had of her own daughter, but I'd think DA would remember something if she's the one who saw her.
You're right. I was so focused on the alleged shopping invite that morning that I completely missed this. Yes, IF DA last saw Rachel at Minot at 12:30 pm, she definitely should've been able to describe something about Rachel's appearance. It's interesting that DA supposedly remembered nothing about Rachel's clothing, but reported she was in "good" mental condition. Okay.....
I don't think she saw her. jmo
 
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  • #842
I'm trying to come up with a scenario where DA knew something she didn't/couldn't say, but wasn't involved in the disappearance, planned or otherwise. Regardless of what she knew, what is the reason she didn't say. To me, that reason can only be she didn't want to implicate herself, Tommy (and/or his associates?) or her own family (potentially including Rachel herself) in something OR fear of retribution on herself, Tommy (and/or his associates) or her own family or again, Rachel herself. Or BOTH implication and retribution, which would mute her indefinitely. I stay with the fact there's a good chance DA didn't know the disappearance was even imminent or certainly permanent, but maybe she declined going w/Rachel because she knew or assumed something hinky was going down at one of the stops pre-SS. I'd like to believe her own sister wouldn't let Rachel walk into her own execution, so I'm guessing DA envisioned something far less dramatic she didn't want to be a witness to or be bothered with that she nonetheless thought would go smoothly.

Could Rachel have unknowingly made a sketchy 'errand' stop? It could be DA said "oh, thanks but I can't go to SS, hey... while you're out can you stop at XYZ for me?" Or even "can you pick up something from the XYZ, no one should be there so just check the top drawer." If not the A/N, where else might they have stopped we don't know about? Rachel may have simply been a messenger re drugs, shady-business deal on behalf of TT or DA, etc. She also may not have even know details of what she was messengering. If she showed up somewhere with less money than was owed, or worse an excuse or "My (sister, husband, etc.) said to tell you they don't have it yet, can I have more time?" I can see someone flipping out with threats and/or injury. Even worse if she was rooting around for something and was 'caught' by someone who didn't know who she was (though I think she'd be known). A pissed off liaison makes the most sense if Rachel went into a building/home by herself and Renee and Julie were in the car (a big car where their heads might not be seen in an sunny glare...esp little J in the back). Any number of scenarios could have happened, which led to 2 more completely unintended witnesses. Rachel flees to her car and the perp is seen, or Rachel doesn't leave and the girls are discovered waiting in the car, or liaison follows them thinking it's just Rachel but sees the other two heads and fears she's telling them what happened. Whatever it is, we went from 1 problem for this person to 3.

Third scenario is perp lets an oblivious Rachel go, but is simmering. At some point goes to mall and abducts Rachel who he'd only seen solo before and is just now realizing there are 3. That would explain accounts the trio was seen at SS that day, but not necessarily the ballsy move of a triple abduction, unless perp got reinforcements on the way. But maybe that seemed like less of a trail than having a potential mess wherever this started. Of course, he'd have no way of knowing who else they saw in the mall and how much Rachel was talking.

I'd love to know what calls were made to DA and TT from the time Rachel was seen at A/N to that night, as well as outgoing from the businesses. And exactly how many people knew Rachel was going to the mall, or might have mentioned to someone else. Without cell phones, there was definitely enough lag time to make some impulsive, catastrophic decisions w/o thinking it through or being called off or calmed down.
 
  • #843
I'm trying to come up with a scenario where DA knew something she didn't/couldn't say, but wasn't involved in the disappearance, planned or otherwise. Regardless of what she knew, what is the reason she didn't say. To me, that reason can only be she didn't want to implicate herself, Tommy (and/or his associates?) or her own family (potentially including Rachel herself) in something OR fear of retribution on herself, Tommy (and/or his associates) or her own family or again, Rachel herself. Or BOTH implication and retribution, which would mute her indefinitely. I stay with the fact there's a good chance DA didn't know the disappearance was even imminent or certainly permanent, but maybe she declined going w/Rachel because she knew or assumed something hinky was going down at one of the stops pre-SS. I'd like to believe her own sister wouldn't let Rachel walk into her own execution, so I'm guessing DA envisioned something far less dramatic she didn't want to be a witness to or be bothered with that she nonetheless thought would go smoothly.
RSBM
I'd agree with all that.
Could Rachel have unknowingly made a sketchy 'errand' stop? It could be DA said "oh, thanks but I can't go to SS, hey... while you're out can you stop at XYZ for me?" Or even "can you pick up something from the XYZ, no one should be there so just check the top drawer."
Actually, I'll buy that possibility.
If not the A/N, where else might they have stopped we don't know about?
I haven't figured this out yet, but I really think it was somewhere in the general area of Gordon. By all accounts, the Trio were on a bit of a schedule, and as far as we know, there are no confirmed, irrefutable sightings of them anywhere else.
Rachel may have simply been a messenger re drugs, shady-business deal on behalf of TT or DA, etc. She also may not have even know details of what she was messengering. If she showed up somewhere with less money than was owed, or worse an excuse or "My (sister, husband, etc.) said to tell you they don't have it yet, can I have more time?" I can see someone flipping out with threats and/or injury.
This is a scenario I keep coming back to. I agree DA could probably convince someone she had connections that she didn't, and use her sister, never dreaming it would go so wrong and Rachel would come to harm. As for money, neither Rachel's family nor her husband had the assets people thought they did. There's reason to believe TT was financing the A family lifestyle, but he was borrowing against his own assets to do so. jmo
I'd love to know what calls were made to DA and TT from the time Rachel was seen at A/N to that night, as well as outgoing from the businesses.
According to Dan, DA was coordinating searches for the girls with FWPD by phone that evening. I don't buy that, but I do think she could've been negotiating with whoever had the girls (and imo that could very well have been a dirty cop), trying to settle things without involving TT. Then when it became painfully obvious that he was in no position financially to meet their demands and they weren't getting the girls back, he had no choice but to play along. jmo
 
  • #844
Deleted by me
 
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  • #845
I spoke to JM's brother, who told me that he had spoken to VB several times. VB guaranteed him that he never saw the girls that day and that he was never with them at the SS. And TM absolutely believes him.
If that's the case, VB wasn't the "one individual seen at one point" with the girls whom Det. Boetcher mentioned at the 2001 press conference.
ST and DA don't qualify because there's no third-party evidence (that we know of) to verify either one was seen with the girls.
There's a guy mentioned in Renee's MP report as the last to see her at her grandmother's on Gordon, which means he likely saw all three prior to their leaving for A/N. This same person allegedly found the Olds at SS that evening. He's the only person associated with the girls that day whom I've never heard anything about. I think it's worth looking at. jmo
 
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  • #846
A friend of a friend’s mother claimed the trio stopped at her house on Wayside Ave (street I lived on in 1974) on the 23rd because Julie wanted to drop off a gift for her school friend (the friend was at his grandparents home that week so he couldn’t verify the veracity of his mother’s account). When I contacted him, he told me RA came at him hard about the statement. Seemingly abrasive and bullying.
Respectfully snipped for focus. Wanted to bring this forward for reference. It's uncertain whether this stop on Wayside Ave actually occured, but the fact it was attacked so aggressively by Rachel's brother suggests the possibility that the girls  were at some point on Wayside (which is just three streets over from Gordon).
I'm thinking either DA did ask Rachel to run an errand in that neighborhood, or the girls met up with someone unexpectedly on Gordon (maybe Mr. Warren?) and were asked to drop by "so-and-so's" right after A/N. Just a thought.
 
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  • #847
While LE members can certainly be corrupt, I bank and them getting involved with a triple homicide or even a disappearance of 3 minors. Even one child disappearance might set off a circus, and barring some time crunch we aren't aware of, there would've been another time/ways around this when Julie wasn't involved.

Backing up further, if DA or TT pissed someone off, it'd be a lot easier to go after one or both of them. I can see someone (possibly under the influence of something) unleashing on Rachel in lieu of DA. Could that person have not known DA on sight and thought she was DA? Either way, he/they then realize Rachel isn't alone, or what was meant to be a kidnapping escalated and all three girls had to go. The whole thing screams of an impulsive act. If there were some sort of ransom or withholding of the girls until some debt was paid, I can definitely see one of their kidnappers messing up. Maybe one of the girls tried to flee and he got trigger happy, or the kidnappers called each other by their real names, that might seal fate.

Kidnapping gone wrong might also explain the note. Whoever wrote it was clearly buying time, but also implied IMO that everything was ok (we just had to get away, but here is where the car is) and the trio would be back (I know I'm going to catch it). Maybe they WERE supposed to be returned and the debt wasn't paid, the kidnappers were identified by one or more of the girls, one or more of the trio was injured or killed, or some combination.

I have 2 location questions...do we know if Julie got in the car at Renee's? And where is the strip club that I've seen mentioned DA or her associates might have worked in or had connections to?
 
  • #848
I have 2 location questions...do we know if Julie got in the car at Renee's?
RSBM
Rachel picked up Renee at her grandmother's (Renee lived on Frazier, but had spent the night at her grandmother's on Gordon), which was either next door to or right across the street from Julie's house (apologies I forget which).
And where is the strip club that I've seen mentioned DA or her associates might have worked in or had connections to?
DA worked at Geno's in Dallas at the time.
 
  • #849
While LE members can certainly be corrupt, I bank and them getting involved with a triple homicide or even a disappearance of 3 minors. Even one child disappearance might set off a circus, and barring some time crunch we aren't aware of, there would've been another time/ways around this when Julie wasn't involved.
Consider this--
You're a high-ranking LEO, well thought of in the community. Your neighbors and fellow church-goers consider you "the salt of the earth". Your family enjoys social rank and priviledge.  But, you're involved in illegal activities with local youth. Many of the kids you're manipulating come from families of lower social standing. The parents who don't know any better trust you, and those who do know wouldn't dare cross you. Some of the parents might even be "business associates". A deal with one of those families goes south, and you're left holding the bag, so to speak, so unpleasant decisions have to be made and messes cleaned up.
If all this ever got out, you'd  definitely go to prison, and it would attract the wrong kind of attention and make life very difficult for local LE. They're not happy about it, but they agree to cover it up. After all, it's not like "nice" families were affected...Just a thought and jmo.
 
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  • #850
If that's the case, VB wasn't the "one individual seen at one point" with the girls whom Det. Boetcher mentioned at the 2001 press conference.
ST and DA don't qualify because there's no third-party evidence (that we know of) to verify either one was seen with the girls.
There's a guy mentioned in Renee's MP report as the last to see her at her grandmother's on Gordon, which means he likely saw all three prior to their leaving for A/N. This same person allegedly found the Olds at SS that evening. He's the only person associated with the girls that day whom I've never heard anything about. I think it's worth looking at. jmo
Any link to where it is stated that he allegedly found the Olds at the Mall ? I always thought family members were the first to find it ? Seems a bit suspicious if it was actually this guy who found it first.

Was it this guy's house where Julie left in a gift, before they headed off to the A/N store, or am I thinking of another neighbour ?
 
  • #851
Any link to where it is stated that he allegedly found the Olds at the Mall ? I always thought family members were the first to find it ? Seems a bit suspicious if it was actually this guy who found it first.
I can't give a link at the moment, but I'm thinking it might've been in an old news article. I'll see if I can chase it down. But, I'd understood that Renee's dad patrolled the mall lot multiple times and didn't see the Olds, but that Mr Warren allegedly spotted it right off. I agree that if that's true, it is a bit suspect.
Was it this guy's house where Julie left in a gift, before they headed off to the A/N store, or am I thinking of another neighbour ?
The gift was allegedly left at the home of a kid Julie walked to school. I have no idea where Mr. Warren lived.
 
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  • #852
Consider this--
You're a high-ranking LEO, well thought of in the community. Your neighbors and fellow church-goers consider you "the salt of the earth". Your family enjoys social rank and priviledge.  But, you're involved in illegal activities with local youth. Many of the kids you're manipulating come from families of lower social standing. The parents who don't know any better trust you, and those who do know wouldn't dare cross you. Some of the parents might even be "business associates". A deal with one of those families goes south, and you're left holding the bag, so to speak, so unpleasant decisions have to be made and messes cleaned up.
If all this ever got out, you'd  definitely go to prison, and it would attract the wrong kind of attention and make life very difficult for local LE. They're not happy about it, but they agree to cover it up. After all, it's not like "nice" families were affected...Just a thought and jmo.
I agree with this sentiment in general. But in this case it seems over the top IMO; even a professional hit is unlikely to off an innocent child that's in the way if there is any way to avoid it. No one more than an LE member would know the ramifications if he/she was found out (immediately or eventually), had a unnoticed witness to his/her actions, or worse a suspecting colleague turns state's evidence. And unless the trio were all targets, that LE member would have other opportunities. For Rachel, isolate her at another time in an era without many cameras, possibly even a traffic stop. If there were only 1 target logic dictates it's much more risky, shines an exponentially bigger spotlight on the whole thing, and probably wouldn't have been necessary to abduct and/or kill all 3. Plus, I find it hard to believe someone hasn't talked, human nature usually surfaces as at least as a rumor.

It sounds to me like someone knew Rachel's plans, but might have thought she was alone. It would also be interesting to note if DA drove the Olds regularly and it was mistaken identity gone way, way wrong. Is it possible Rachel told someone she was going with DA to the mall (before she asked and DA said 'no) and when did Renee come into the mix? Because I'm envisioning someone who only knew DA vaguely thinking Rachel was DA, and Renee was Rachel. And potentially not noticing Julie at all until it was too late.

All in all I'm starting to feel more strongly this was originally a ransom or threat and something went bonkers. The letter prepped ahead of time - "we just had to get away" - could have been referring to TT and DA or DA and Rachel. Was it ever tradition for Rachel and DA to go to the mall together for Xmas shopping? Since it was mailed the night before, it could have been sent thinking a payoff was imminent and they'd be back, or it was already known 2 people wouldn't be back and they weren't Renee or Julie.
 
  • #853
Any link to where it is stated that he allegedly found the Olds at the Mall ? I always thought family members were the first to find it ? Seems a bit suspicious if it was actually this guy who found it first.
RSBM
I can't give a link at the moment, but I'm thinking it might've been in an old news article. I'll see if I can chase it down. But, I'd understood that Renee's dad patrolled the mall lot multiple times and didn't see the Olds, but that Mr Warren allegedly spotted it right off. I agree that if that's true, it is a bit suspect.
The old newspaper articles I've checked all say Rachel's parents found the car (which isn't true). Oh, the inaccuracies in this case! (jmo)
 
  • #854
Like when they all go down to the bus stop which only gave credence to the runaway theory and undermined what some of the family members had been saying. I'm not saying I blame them, I'm just saying I would have used a little discretion when doing it. I wonder how much the A family had to do with arranging the entire thing.
Given that Rachel's parents were a no-show for that, it does make you wonder. FWIW, Renee's father and Rachel's husband stayed and waited till the last bus came in. Thanks to a phone call (from someone claiming to be a friend of Renee's) that lured them away, there was apparently an attempted burglary at the W home. Things that make you go Hmmm....
(Source) Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Wed Jan 8, 1975
 
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  • #855
To me that screams, "I know something but not enough to act on it without getting sued to Kingdom come for defamation" on the part of PI James. Depending on when he said that, he could either mean he believed "it" (an object, another letter, less likely remains) was a tangible piece of evidence still there, OR intentionally used the word "solution" to be taken more broadly - i.e. the address itself, the people there, business dealings,
RSBM
I have no doubt whatsoever that PI James knew things. But I do feel he withheld truly useful information and toyed with people (much like FWPD detectives, imo).
Having said that, Renee's father stated on a podcast (Texas Gone Cold maybe?) he believed PI Swaim would've solved the case, had he lived. I tend to think he had figured out what happened to the girls, but because of who was involved, he knew further pursuit was complicated and futile, and didn't have the heart to break it to the families (namely Renee's and Julie's). JMO
 
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  • #856
thanks. I will see if I can find that podcast. I feel like this thread could use a Media Links or official reports repository, much like the Springfield Three before that thread imploded.
 
  • #857
I feel like this thread could use a Media Links or official reports repository, much like the Springfield Three before that thread imploded.
It's been suggested, but one huge problem is that about 90% of the old newspaper articles are inaccurate...js
 
  • #858
It's been suggested, but one huge problem is that about 90% of the old newspaper articles are inaccurate...js
I'll say. What's interesting about newspapers is what information is repeated (even if inaccurate) and in what order. It would be great to have more of the MP report info. Do you know if there has been a recent FOIA request or is there a "ongoing investigation" brick wall?
 
  • #859
I'll say. What's interesting about newspapers is what information is repeated (even if inaccurate) and in what order. It would be great to have more of the MP report info. Do you know if there has been a recent FOIA request or is there a "ongoing investigation" brick wall?
Definitely the ole "ongoing investigation" brick wall. jmo
 
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  • #860
thanks. I will see if I can find that podcast.
RSBM
Gone Cold-Texas True Crime podcast did a pretty thorough (imo) seven-part series on the Fort Worth Missing Trio. There are a number of podcasts out there about the Trio, but this is one of the better ones (again, imo).
 

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