TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

[OBrunhilde!]

Interesting that you bring that up Sunnynz. I have always interpreted Terry Turner's statement about Fred Howder differently. IIRC, Terry Turner was asked who might know the story about his girls dying in the fire and he replied that Fred Howder might know "the whole story". What that "whole story" refers to is up to interpretation, I guess. I always took it to mean the story of the fire. If we take it to mean Fred Howder might know the whole story of FLEK then it's a lot more incriminating, IMO. That also implies TT knew something, IMO and he claimed to not know anything about her.

IDK, I look at pictures of the H family and I look at pictures of the Turners and I think FLEK looks more like a Turner than a Howder. Maybe the part about "FLEK could be Fred Howder's daughter" was a mis-direct because he thought FLEK was his own daughter? Could he have just mentioned Howder because he knew how many daughters he had--that it would take a while to track them all down? Just thinking out loud here. I have no clue. All I know is I located all of FH's daughters that are mentioned publicly and none are FLEK.

i thought that TT meant that FH would know the whole story about FLEK, too. But either way, as some of the H clan were in trouble for identity theft, even if they just knew of what happened to the T family, they still might have exploited that knowledge.

I have had this idea stuck in my craw, and please feel free to tell me if it is nuts. A member of the FB group posted that according to a book she was reading, the birth certificate was not a state/county issued certificate, rather it was one of two copies issued by the hospital before sending the info off to the county or state. Wouldn't a parent get a copy in the hospital? I keep thinking that TT gave the cert to FLEK himself. I know she has a receipt, but she could have bought any old birth certificate and attached the notary statement and receipt to the one TT gave her. It isn't like it is hard to undo a staple and reattach it to another piece of paper. Because she looks so much like him, it doesn't seem all that far fetched to me. Or maybe he handed it off to someone in the H clan thinking he was helping someone out or something? I can't find that FB post anymore, and I am not sure how to research that number to confirm or disprove where it was issued. All speculation, of course.

 

[Gardener1850]

i thought that TT meant that FH would know the whole story about FLEK, too. But either way, as some of the H clan were in trouble for identity theft, even if they just knew of what happened to the T family, they still might have exploited that knowledge.

I have had this idea stuck in my craw, and please feel free to tell me if it is nuts. A member of the FB group posted that according to a book she was reading, the birth certificate was not a state/county issued certificate, rather it was one of two copies issued by the hospital before sending the info off to the county or state. Wouldn't a parent get a copy in the hospital? I keep thinking that TT gave the cert to FLEK himself. I know she has a receipt, but she could have bought any old birth certificate and attached the notary statement and receipt to the one TT gave her. It isn't like it is hard to undo a staple and reattach it to another piece of paper. Because she looks so much like him, it doesn't seem all that far fetched to me. Or maybe he handed it off to someone in the H clan thinking he was helping someone out or something? I can't find that FB post anymore, and I am not sure how to research that number to confirm or disprove where it was issued. All speculation, of course.

I have seen that speculation before about there only being two copies but I don't really understand it. If you look at the birth record it does look like it was copied from a book kept by the hospital. The words "Birth Book 352" seem to appear on their own layer as if they are a separate tab in a book. It was probably photocopied that way and the original copies were sent to the county. Then the county could make copies of that for anyone who requested it. IMO it looks like a copy of a copy because of the shading around the letters at the top and the slight blurring of the letters. The first copy is always crisper. A copy of a copy has some shadows and less crisp lines. IMO, it's a little far fetched that she went so far as to buy someone else's BC at Kern County just to have a receipt. It's likely no one ever asked to see the receipt. This was long before documents had to have holographic images in the background to verify their authenticity. Document forgery was rare so most would trust that the type birth record was an official document, IMO.

 

[Gardener1850]

Its not on the death certificate. Also the death cert was obtained as part of the investigation. It wasn't in the lock box. I don't think she ever got a copy of it.

Actually, A date of birth is on the death record but the DOB is wrong. The death record says 7/15/1969. The birth record says 7/18/1969. Yet another reason the death record would have been no help in requesting the birth record. It's ALMOST as if someone purposely made details on the death record inaccurate enough that ID theft could not be caught easily. That is if you believe someone helped FLEK. I've done enough genealogy to know however that mistakes on death records are very common. The family is in shock and grieving and they mis-remember info or someone else "helps" fill out the forms and gets it wrong. It happens all the time.

 

[Sherwood Park]

Yes, it's tedious to use initials. Just don't feel comfortable about speculating using people's full, searchable names. It feels like an invasion of their privacy (to me). I agree...don't think she was in the witness protection program.



Hi Sherwood Park, I believe she may be deceased, though I haven't rounded up sufficient documentation, yet. (A possible third wife got crossed off my list yesterday, and I'm currently thinking C.C. may have actually been his mother.)

How much does anyone know about G. Stalder? I haven't been able to find any information about where he was born or who his mother is. I find that strange. It's always bothered me that the signature on FLEK's fake work/rental reference letter is Chung Chu Stalder/Jennifer Chu Stalder's writing. She is deceased, so she wouldn't be able to get into trouble for anything, so I'm wondering if G. Stalder would be willing to share if and what he might have known about C.C. Stalder's connection to FLEK.

 

[OBrunhilde!]

Actually, A date of birth is on the death record but the DOB is wrong. The death record says 7/15/1969. The birth record says 7/18/1969. Yet another reason the death record would have been no help in requesting the birth record. It's ALMOST as if someone purposely made details on the death record inaccurate enough that ID theft could not be caught easily. That is if you believe someone helped FLEK. I've done enough genealogy to know however that mistakes on death records are very common. The family is in shock and grieving and they mis-remember info or someone else "helps" fill out the forms and gets it wrong. It happens all the time.

Just to second what you said about the accuracy of death certificates...I had an unenviable position processing death benefit claims when I was an undergrad. I looked at many, many death certs, and I would say as a conservative estimate that 20% of them contained errors.

And thank you for the head check about the birth cert-- I will now just let that one go!

 

[MrsMole]

Hi! This is my first post, so bear with me if this has been hashed out already...
I think this is sort of strange as well. Do you think it's possible if she requested it by mail that the request simply read something like "a copy of the birth certificate for BST born in Bakersfield, CA in 1969" and it was as easy as opening the records for that year and flipping to BST's name? If not, it is a bit curious how the birth date was obtained in the first place.

 

[FrankieB]

How did people know she wanted an easy bake oven for Christmas? What is the source for this/exact story? I cannot find it anywhere.

I bring the hands to attention again. What has been determined in this area? According to the information available she did not have marfan or a growth disease...so what is the cause for such long hands? They looked so unusual I suggest they could have left an impression on people from her past, and they can never be changed unlike her face which might have undergone some changes.

 

[Gardener1850]

Hi! This is my first post, so bear with me if this has been hashed out already...
I think this is sort of strange as well. Do you think it's possible if she requested it by mail that the request simply read something like "a copy of the birth certificate for BST born in Bakersfield, CA in 1969" and it was as easy as opening the records for that year and flipping to BST's name? If not, it is a bit curious how the birth date was obtained in the first place.

Welcome! You know that is a good question...
In my experience she would have had to know the exact date and full name to get the record. To find the record the clerk would most likely be looking through files or books of records ordered by date. In some counties they have indexes at the front of the books but not all do. They are not going to want to look through every record in the year 1969 to find Becky Sue Turner's birth record. Plus, although they were more lax in who they gave records out to back then, it's a pretty good chance that if FLEK said she didn't know the date (and this is a record for a minor the clerk presumed to be alive) they are not going to give her the record so easily--it would put up red flags, IMO for her to not know the exact DOB. FLEK would have had to pretend to be BST or a parent or other close relative to get the record. JMO.

All that said, I have never requested a BC from Kern County, CA and I have no idea what the process was like back in 1988. The male clerk-recorder who is named in the stamped receipt and and the woman who signed below the stamp are both alive (or were a few months ago when I looked for them). I realize they may not know anything about FLEK (I highly doubt they would remember her) but would anyone like to contact them and ask about the process for obtaining a birth record in Kern County in 1988? Perhaps we could gain insight into how FLEK got the record. Maybe it was easier than we think.

ETA: Just to put it into perspective, I searched for birth records in Kern County in 1969 and found over 6000 people born there. Maybe in a smaller county with only a few hundred people a clerk would be nice enough to search through the records without an exact date, but 6000 records is way to many and would take too much time. This of course assumes the method of keeping records in order by date is how it was done in Kern County. There would be folders or books for each month--possibly each week of each month if they have that many records. The clerk would find the record by date, IME. I could be wrong though and Kern county might have had a more efficient system with detailed indexes. I have only ever been to small town/small county clerks offices.

 

[Gardener1850]

How did people know she wanted an easy bake oven for Christmas? What is the source for this/exact story? I cannot find it anywhere.

I bring the hands to attention again. What has been determined in this area? According to the information available she did not have marfan or a growth disease...so what is the cause for such long hands? They looked so unusual I suggest they could have left an impression on people from their past, and they can never be changed unlike her face which might have undergone some changes.

The Easybake Oven story came from an interview with her husband and MIL in the Seatle Times story: http://old.seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021243552_janedoexml.html

Many tall people have large/long hands and don't have any kind of disease or defect.

 

[sunnynz]

Welcome! You know that is a good question...
In my experience she would have had to know the exact date and full name to get the record. To find the record the clerk would most likely be looking through files or books of records ordered by date. In some counties they have indexes at the front of the books but not all do. They are not going to want to look through every record in the year 1969 to find Becky Sue Turner's birth record. Plus, although they were more lax in who they gave records out to back then, it's a pretty good chance that if FLEK said she didn't know the date (and this is a record for a minor the clerk presumed to be alive) they are not going to give her the record so easily--it would put up red flags, IMO for her to not know the exact DOB. FLEK would have had to pretend to be BST or a parent or other close relative to get the record. JMO.

All that said, I have never requested a BC from Kern County, CA and I have no idea what the process was like back in 1988. The male clerk-recorder who is named in the stamped receipt and and the woman who signed below the stamp are both alive (or were a few months ago when I looked for them). I realize they may not know anything about FLEK (I highly doubt they would remember her) but would anyone like to contact them and ask about the process for obtaining a birth record in Kern County in 1988? Perhaps we could gain insight into how FLEK got the record. Maybe it was easier than we think.

ETA: Just to put it into perspective, I searched for birth records in Kern County in 1969 and found over 6000 people born there. Maybe in a smaller county with only a few hundred people a clerk would be nice enough to search through the records without an exact date, but 6000 records is way to many and would take too much time. This of course assumes the method of keeping records in order by date is how it was done in Kern County. There would be folders or books for each month--possibly each week of each month if they have that many records. The clerk would find the record by date, IME. I could be wrong though and Kern county might have had a more efficient system with detailed indexes. I have only ever been to small town/small county clerks offices.

Sure, if you want to let me know their details then I'm happy to contact them.

 

[FrankieB]

Thank you for the link. I know, I am tall myself but her hands and fingers were unusually long. Not quite proportionate. The way she kept staring at them also implies they were very important to her, though I've never read solid proof she was a hand model. I'm not criticizing her in any way, I just feel there is something notable in those hands.

 

[OBrunhilde!]

I didn't find this, someone in the FB group did. It is titled "Birth Cetificate Fraud" and issued by The Office of The Inspector General in 1988. It states in Section IV that California is an open state, meaning that "anyone could see and get a copy of it." It being the birth cert.
https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oai-02-86-00001.pdf

 

[Gardener1850]

I didn't find this, someone in the FB group did. It is titled "Birth Cetificate Fraud" and issued by The Office of The Inspector General in 1988. It states in Section IV that California is an open state, meaning that "anyone could see and get a copy of it." It being the birth cert.
https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oai-02-86-00001.pdf

Interesting, thanks for sharing! I haven't read this yet but the report is dated March 1988. I wonder how likely it was that they cracked down on fraud by May of 1988? It seems this report would make the county clerks offices more careful to not give out a BC to just anyone.

 

[Sherwood Park]

Welcome! You know that is a good question...
In my experience she would have had to know the exact date and full name to get the record. To find the record the clerk would most likely be looking through files or books of records ordered by date. In some counties they have indexes at the front of the books but not all do. They are not going to want to look through every record in the year 1969 to find Becky Sue Turner's birth record. Plus, although they were more lax in who they gave records out to back then, it's a pretty good chance that if FLEK said she didn't know the date (and this is a record for a minor the clerk presumed to be alive) they are not going to give her the record so easily--it would put up red flags, IMO for her to not know the exact DOB. FLEK would have had to pretend to be BST or a parent or other close relative to get the record. JMO.

All that said, I have never requested a BC from Kern County, CA and I have no idea what the process was like back in 1988. The male clerk-recorder who is named in the stamped receipt and and the woman who signed below the stamp are both alive (or were a few months ago when I looked for them). I realize they may not know anything about FLEK (I highly doubt they would remember her) but would anyone like to contact them and ask about the process for obtaining a birth record in Kern County in 1988? Perhaps we could gain insight into how FLEK got the record. Maybe it was easier than we think.

ETA: Just to put it into perspective, I searched for birth records in Kern County in 1969 and found over 6000 people born there. Maybe in a smaller county with only a few hundred people a clerk would be nice enough to search through the records without an exact date, but 6000 records is way to many and would take too much time. This of course assumes the method of keeping records in order by date is how it was done in Kern County. There would be folders or books for each month--possibly each week of each month if they have that many records. The clerk would find the record by date, IME. I could be wrong though and Kern county might have had a more efficient system with detailed indexes. I have only ever been to small town/small county clerks offices.

This topic of the birth certificate has me wondering again if she had a connection in California or Washington who already had the necessary information and provided it to FLEK.
This is one of the reasons why I'm revisiting one of my previous theories (and I have many) that she might have had the help of C.C. Stalder or someone connected to her at some point in this name change process. But as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm still trying to figure out how Arizona fits into her timelines, as in when did she live there and who did she know there. If she did live in Arizona, did she have help from someone who lived there.
I don't think that even in 1988 she would have been able to simply provide a name with no date of birth and get a birth certificate, especially with such a common name as Turner.

 

[OBrunhilde!]

Defies common sense, but in states in which these docs are considered public record, "we have no authority to question." And it is acknowledged to be a big, big problem! Maybe California altered its laws, but probably not within a couple of months.

 

[Gardener1850]

Defies common sense, but in states in which these docs are considered public record, "we have no authority to question." And it is acknowledged to be a big, big problem! Maybe California altered its laws, but probably not within a couple of months.

I read through most of that document. One thing I found interesting is that the only commonly asked for piece of info on an application for the birth record that a stranger would not easily know was mother's maiden name. And it said that info could be found on the death certificate. That is the only reason she might have gotten the death record, IMO. But a birth announcement in a paper would sometimes also have the mother's maiden name or the obituary could have it too.

 

[StarrChance]

Does anyone think this woman looks like Lori?

Holly Ann Paul was last seen 1999, also she was 5'6
I'm really amazed though at the likeness.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/paul_holly.html

 

[Gardener1850]

Holly Ann Paul was last seen 1999, also she was 5'6
I'm really amazed though at the likeness.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/p/paul_holly.html

I know and I can't find any more details about her disappearance and she has no DNA in the system to compare against Lori. I know that 1999 is off from what everyone expects but I have always been open to the idea Lori kept in touch with family for a while after 1988. If Holly Ann Paul's height came from her drivers license we already know that Lori fudged her height on other licenses. I'm trying to find out more about Holly. The hotel where she was last seen is midway between Jacksonville, FL and Dallas.

ETA: The photo I chose to compare to is Lori's license from 1997 so these photos are even close in time and she looks very similar, IMO.

 

[StarrChance]

I know and I can't find any more details about her disappearance and she has no DNA in the system to compare against Lori. I know that 1999 is off from what everyone expects but I have always been open to the idea Lori kept in touch with family for a while after 1988. If Holly Ann Paul's height came from her drivers license we already know that Lori fudged her height on other licenses. I'm trying to find out more about Holly. The hotel where she was last seen is midway between Jacksonville, FL and Dallas.

ETA: The photo I chose to compare to is Lori's license from 1997 so these photos are even close in time and she looks very similar, IMO.

Websleuthes has a Holly Ann Paul thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?112958-AL-Holly-Ann-Paul-35-Mobile-29-Aug-1999

My ancestry account has an Holly Ann Paul in Jacksonville Florida which ties with

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012898/b6COPS_s.html#.V7mZVlcmKrU

 

[Gardener1850]

Websleuthes has a Holly Ann Paul thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?112958-AL-Holly-Ann-Paul-35-Mobile-29-Aug-1999

My ancestry account has an Holly Ann Paul in Jacksonville Florida which ties with

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012898/b6COPS_s.html#.V7mZVlcmKrU

Thanks I saw that too. Some interestign comments on her profile here: http://www.missingin.org/reg2820/holly_ann_paul.htm
Discusses a divorce in 1987. I'm trying to verify if any of that is true. If she divorced the guy mentioned in the comments she would have good reason to get another ID in 1988.