TX - Lynndie England for mistreatment of Abu Ghraib detainees, Fort Hood, 2003

[Linda7NJ]

I saw videos of them all, Daniel Perle, Berg and a few others. Sickening what they will do. I can't believe those same people complaining about AbuGraib (sp) aren't showing outrage at what the Iraqi groups are doing to U. S. CIVILIANS. And I have not seen ANY reports of our soldiers who may have been taken prisoner. I don't even know if any are missing over there. I find that very odd. If they don't take prisoners, it means they automatically kill and don't bother with housing or feeding our soldiers. If they are taking prisoners, why don't we hear how they are treated???

I've watched them all too. The screams & those images still haunt me , it was NOTHING like I imagined. Nothing.

I tell you what, I don't regret watching the videos, it put the whole thing in perspective for me. These terrorists aren't deserving of any sympathy. They are the worst kind of evil and don't even deserve to be considered human.

 

[Marthatex]

"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

 

[Lesleegp]

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

I don't call what we did to them torture. FAR from it. As I said above.....having your head sawed off with a dull knife....that is torture. Having your picture made in humiliating situations is just that....humiliating....not torture.

 

[jannuncutt]

"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

Well said, Marthatex, well said. It seems to me that whatever harm is done to the Iraqi people is just being rationalized away - as though Iraqi = terrorist. I know that Bush keeps bumbling along but, the last time I heard, I thought that we were supposed to be helping those people - last time I heard.

 

[Marthatex]

Yes, it's so complicated Jan. Sometimes we have to remember and learn just who the REAL terrorists are. Saddam was a cruel despot, but he wasn't even a radical Islamic. He hated Iran, and we supported him.

The Al queda in Iraq group is led by Zarkawi, a Jordanian, who recruited terrorists INTO Iraq, or within the Sunnis who don't want the Americans to succeed. Many of the Sunni groups now are denouncing the horrible suicide bombings.

How do they know who to round up and put in prison? alot of mistakes are made I'm sure. That is my point.

 

[lostfaith]

"Iraqi groups?" Don't you mean terrorist groups, or insurgent groups?

I thought we went in to Iraq to free Iraqis and help give them Democracy. Many of the Iraqis would just like to have their freedom, their families, life back to normal. Most of them are not the terrorists.

I thought Al Quaida, some outsiders like Syrians, and some Sunnis are terrorists or insurgents. I wouldn't really call them "iraqi groups".

Yes, it just made me sick about Daniel Perle and Nick Berg. That's what the terrorists want is to enrage and sicken us. I have forgotten which group it was, exactly, that killed them. Too much has happened to remember. But my opinion is that we just can't round up suspects, but them in prison and torture them at random to get "information". They aren't ALL necessarily terrorists like the one who killed Perle and Berg.

We have just released many of them, no? Aren't some of them innocent? I agree with John McCain that we must be tough, but show the world that we have standards, that we are NOT like the terrorists.

There evidently has been little proof that any of this torture over there has done us any good at all. When tortured, they will say "something", but it isn't necessarily the truth at all. I agree that England took the fall for superiors.

I have to agree with you, Martha. I watched the video's too. It was horrible, it made me sick, I was angry and wanted vengence. I admit, many times I have wanted an eye for an eye with many of the criminals we read about on this site. But...... our country is not about that. We should be trying to teach them that violence is wrong, and you teach by example. Granted, what England and the others did doesnt even begin to compare to beheadings and other horrible things they have done, but our country should be leading by example, period! YOU DONT TREAT PEOPLE, INCLUDING PRISONERS LIKE THIS, as much as you want to. I was embarrased by what these soldiers did. Sorry if that offends anyone. I hate them as much as anyone, but we have to show that we are more civilized than them, or where does that leave us. I also believe she took the fall for higher uppers.

 

[Mygirlsadie]

Hey SadieMae...I agree with ya!! I'm assuming your also a soldiers wife so I know your way of thinking all too well. I read this reply shaking my head ''yep''.. by the way I just left ft.hood a cpl.months ago I lived there for 6 years in Comm.2 ..Ha! Take care and enjoy the heat lol we are in Germany now..!!

Maybe it's because I live at Fort Hood, but I didn't think she or anyone should have gone to jail for the prison incidents. I've seen the devastation first hand what those SOB's in Iraq have done to our troops, and not to mention their families. None of those prisoners DIED by cowardly deeds of their "enemy". So what they were humiliated, they are alive, fed and housed. Ours that are captured don't live as well as prisoners, or are murdered. I've listened to an 8 year old explain to me how his Daddy went to heaven, I've hugged & cried with a 21 year old wife who gave birth to her first child 3 weeks before her husband was killed, I took a home off the market I listed when a wife with 4 kids found out her husband was killed from a roadside bomb, it goes on and on. This week alone Fort Hood lost 5 soldiers, one was only 20 years old, from dirty tactics. As harsh as it sounds I could care less if the Iraqi insurgents they capture are thrown in room with hungry pit bulls.
Ok...I'm ducking... :truce: who threw that 3" heel at me?

 

[Marthatex]

I have to agree with you, Martha. I watched the video's too. It was horrible, it made me sick, I was angry and wanted vengence. I admit, many times I have wanted an eye for an eye with many of the criminals we read about on this site. But...... our country is not about that. We should be trying to teach them that violence is wrong, and you teach by example. Granted, what England and the others did doesnt even begin to compare to beheadings and other horrible things they have done, but our country should be leading by example, period! YOU DONT TREAT PEOPLE, INCLUDING PRISONERS LIKE THIS, as much as you want to. I was embarrased by what these soldiers did. Sorry if that offends anyone. I hate them as much as anyone, but we have to show that we are more civilized than them, or where does that leave us. I also believe she took the fall for higher uppers.

Well said, LostFaith. Better than I am saying, with my rambling lately. Even the New Testament says, Do not confront evil with another act of evil.

We are bombing innocent children, flattening houses to get at insurgents. Our troops are "sitting ducks"; that is no war they have been trained to do. They DID what they were supposed to do, and they should come home proud.

If you look at the news, it looks like we are going to be trying to withdraw. Iraq will never be our "friends"IMO. It reminds me a bit of Vietnam.

 

[Marthatex]

For anyone interested in Daniel Pearl, I looked it up - he was trying to investigate the connection between Pakistan and Mohammed Atta, the ringleader of 9-11. Evidently the Pakistani Shiek had sent Atta $100,000 to his account.

The group was: The National Movement of Pakistani Sovereignty (claimed Pearl was a spy), captured him and beheaded him. It happened IN Pakistan

Pakistan has always undermined us and probably still are. Why didn't we just bomb them? There are terrorists groups everywhere, and even more now.

Daniel Pearl was Jewish, graduated from Stanford University, Phi Beta Kappa Probably didn't realize what a hornet's nest he was getting into.

http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Daniel_Pearl

 

[Wuschel]

So, you know for a fact that those incarcerated were "terrorists?" Actually, we invaded a sovereign nation which posed no threat to us....those arrrested may have been fighting against our occupation....they would not see themselves as terrorists...Iraq had nothing to with 911....many arrested were petty criminals.....what right did Lyndie England or anyone else have to treat another person that way....it is unneccesary and simply makes us look bad....she and Charles Granger, a documented domestic abuser did more than just shoot some pictures.....
I'm sure there were higher ups with knowledge and they should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law...the full impact of our foolhardy invasion in Iraq may take years to truly comprhend in all it's horror- much like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistam...it may ultimately have divided our country and exhausted our resources to the point where we cannot recover.....of course the President is now talking about a strike on Iran...which may have been the real reason for our Iraq invasion....
Why do you think that John Mc Cain, a torture victim himself, wants to ban it?
What we did was unethical, inhumane and does not lead to useful information as the torture victim will say anything to stop the torture..How do you think the info about the connection to Africa was made -which turned out to be false? Also, as a democratic nation, we have made a committment to not use cruel and unusual punishment..One terrorist attack is no excuse to act like a cowboy invading a country with no ties to 911 and alienating its citizens....
I certainly hope you have not taught your children that what Ms. England did was right.............it is a sad day when the victims become the victimizers...

I agree with you, Kylie. The fault of those in prison was not proven in any way, and even if they were criminals, torture and sexual humiliation are unlawful and I hope they always will be.

Geez, history keeps repeating itself. Should we not have learned from the middle ages that torture does not lead anywhere? Why did we ban it from our legal systems years ago? That was done for a good reason!

Wuschel

 

[Marthatex]

I don't call what we did to them torture. FAR from it. As I said above.....having your head sawed off with a dull knife....that is torture. Having your picture made in humiliating situations is just that....humiliating....not torture.

So, you think being dragged by a leash naked, in front of all these guys who don't speak your language and look kind of scary, and might rape you any moment - 'cause they have you bend and pose in alll sorts of sexual positions - take pictures of you - that is not TORTURE? It would be to me. Anytime you're afraid for your life, afraid for your decency and self respect, and what they might do to you - heart beat increases, etc. THAT"S TORTURE

Sleep deprivation; sound torture, many other techniques they used there and at other SECRET prisons where we've just found out this or WORSE is going on - yes it's torture, and most believe what John McCain has said and that's why the White House had to make the concession on torture.

I'm not asking you to baby-sit my puppy dog, that's for sure. as they say, some things are even worse than death.

 

[Lesleegp]

So, you think being dragged by a leash naked, in front of all these guys who don't speak your language and look kind of scary, and might rape you any moment - 'cause they have you bend and pose in alll sorts of sexual positions - take pictures of you - that is not TORTURE? It would be to me. Anytime you're afraid for your life, afraid for your decency and self respect, and what they might do to you - heart beat increases, etc. THAT"S TORTURE

Sleep deprivation; sound torture, many other techniques they used there and at other SECRET prisons where we've just found out this or WORSE is going on - yes it's torture, and most believe what John McCain has said and that's why the White House had to make the concession on torture.

I'm not asking you to baby-sit my puppy dog, that's for sure. as they say, some things are even worse than death.

Frankly, no I don't call it torture.....the facts that I know happened. I never heard they were raped. I will read more on that.

And for the record, I'm not in the dog sitting business.

 

[Wuschel]

Marthatex and LostFaith, thank you for your thoughtful posts.

I hate to say it, and I certainly know that I should be careful with that kind of comparisons, but what is going on right now with the prisoners in Guantanamo and with the torture in the Iraqi prisons and the redefinition of the term torture sometimes reminds me of the early beginnings of the 3rd Reich.

Back then, peoples rights were taken away just merely because of their Jewish faith, or because of their political belief, or because they were homosexual........without trials and without any regard of their personal involvement into a particular crime. Not that the German government back then needed crimes to take their rights away (they just did it), but that makes it even worse to think that history obviously has begun to repeat itself.

Wuschel

 

[Marthatex]

Make no mistake, I'm not sympathetic towards this crazy ideology and any terrorists who are murdering innocent people all over the world now. It's horrible. It's difficult to catch them and bring them to justice.

But obviously the methods we have been using have "backfired" on us. We should have had more forethought; we should maintained our integrity, as Tony Blair's example shows - by cracking down, increasing security, but maintaining the country's basic ideals and strength.

I have no idea what's going on in all the prisons; evidently the Iraqi controlled ones are even WORSE. Why would they want to do practically the same as what Saddam did?

And if the tortured prisoners are released, whom do you think they join up with? Yep, our prisons and Iraqi prisons may be "boot camp" for the insurgency. And zarqawi has got recruits flowing in, while the American military is waning. Ironic, isn't it?