TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[katydid23]

That's why I was asking, to see why someone might think that, if they did indeed think that.

I think back at the very start of this case there were a lot of accusations about this being a murder in the jail, and a few glitches in the first tapes released by LE , for example, heightened the rumors.

However since then, more has been released. Like the jail house videos and the autopsy. And the reports by the inmate in the next cell, and the social media left behind by the suicide victim---- All together they seem to support the facts that she took her own life. JMO

 

[arkansasmimi]

That was his choice, to be where he was. Earlier he had approached her car and talked to her on the passenger side. He could have done that again if he was concerned about traffic. But it was not a real issue, since he had already parked his car blocking the traffic. That was just more of his BS, to justify his escalation of the situation. There is no legitimate reason for a LEO to order a driver out of the car, just to hand her a warning citation.

JMHO, but when he ran her plates (if car was reg to her) it may have shown she had prior possession charges and used that to get a look into the veh. All within his rights.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I don't know if this has been touched on already, but on the jail intake form, a few questions down from the suicidal thoughts question, was a question about self-harming. Was there visual evidence such as cuts on arms etc. The answer was no.

Also just a word on people who self-harm, sometimes known as "cutters". They hide it. They don't wear sleeveless dresses with dozens of cuts in various

stages of healing. It just doesn't happen.

Respectfully BBM, in this case per the Autopsy Report it happened in this case:

Volar: Pertaining to the palm or the sole. For example, the volar surface of the forearm is the portion of the forearm that is on the same side as the palm of the hand. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9907


pg 4/11 Autopsy report
ll. SUPERFICIAL HEALING CUT MARKS, VOLAR LEFT FOREARM: The volar left forearm contains approximately 25 to 30 horizontal faint linear healing scabbed superficial incised wounds with focal pale, scarred regions of healing, which are parallel and range in length from 3/16 to 1 inch.


pg 9/11 ss close up of the area from diagram

 

[Rocco]

If I was the DA and I presented that as evidence to a jury I would not expect a guilty verdict. It's too weak.

Your going to count on the testimony of a fellow police officer to get to "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Not going to happen.

The testimony of the other officer.

The tape showing the other officer pointing at his leg and them discussing it.

A mark on his leg.

Another officer asking if he was hurt and he replied something to the effect 'It's not bad, I'm ok".

The video of them scuffling.

Just curious---If you were a juror, what more would you want?

 

[arkansasmimi]

Respectfully snipped and BBM for focus:

I understand that you were speaking of the lit cigarette in general terms.

It's my perception though, that she didn't get argumentative until after he asked her to put it out and refused to answer her IMO reasonable question of why did she have to.

May I ask what you thought was argumentative?

I can't believe I am saying this, but I feel compelled to provide this disclaimer: I am genuinely interested in your views. This is not a gotcha question. Maybe you saw something I didn't that would provide me with a completely different perspective than what I saw.

Just jumping off your post to add my thought.... Although we couldn't hear what SB said when the officer approached initially at the passenger side, something gave him reason to ask what's wrong. Nor could we see what was going on in the car or her body language. Then his first thing after walking to the drivers side, he waits 6 seconds and asks is she ok.... that she seemed very irritated. It had been a few minutes since he asked her whats wrong... not at the second time to the vehicle. JMHO from watching and taking notes and rewatching multiple times.

 

[desertmama]

Respectfully BBM, in this case per the Autopsy Report it happened in this case:

Volar: Pertaining to the palm or the sole. For example, the volar surface of the forearm is the portion of the forearm that is on the same side as the palm of the hand. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9907


pg 4/11 Autopsy report
ll. SUPERFICIAL HEALING CUT MARKS, VOLAR LEFT FOREARM: The volar left forearm contains approximately 25 to 30 horizontal faint linear healing scabbed superficial incised wounds with focal pale, scarred regions of healing, which are parallel and range in length from 3/16 to 1 inch.


pg 9/11 ss close up of the area from diagram View attachment 78823

Yes the coroner noticed the wounds, but no one else did??? There were 25 to 30 can't be bothered to get an exact count because math I guess.

 

[Juan23]

Katy, you have a completely different perspective on the dangers facing LE than most people. Most LE don't have to deal with working in what amounts to a warzone. Areas like South Los Angeles are an anomaly in the world of policing. JMO

Not sure where you live but unfortunately areas like south Los Angeles are not an anomaly. There are dangerous and scary war zones in almost every state and I admire the courageous police officers that risk their lives day in and day out trying to protect citizens of those high crime areas even though it seems like a high percentage of the citizens in those areas treat law enforcement with disdain.

 

[KaaBoom]

The female officer that came to the scene saw the scuffle. The dash cam shows her pointing to his leg and commenting about the mark. The charge was assaulting a PO. I don't see the charges being dismissed. Not a chance. But that's JMO.

And that officer was suspended for her conduct, in the incident. That would have made her a really great witness.

The DA would have taken one look at this case and would have dropped the charges. He would look like a fool trying to prosecute a woman for refusing to put out a cigarette.

 

[Rocco]

And that officer was suspended for her conduct, in the incident. That would have made her a really great witness.

The DA would have taken one look at this case and would have dropped the charges. He would look like a fool trying to prosecute a woman for refusing to put out a cigarette.

Like I said---there was more than just the testimony of the female officer. There was also another officer on the scene. And she wasn't being charged with 'Failure to put out a cigarette'.

 

[arkansasmimi]

That's fine. We all see things differently. I thought she was polite. She said hello when he approached. She gave him the documents and sounded happy when she told him it was her first day there in answer to his question.
She sounded amused/playful when she said she was waiting for him and that it was his job (thinking she meant that it was his gig as to what to do)
When he asked about irritation she was matter of fact and calm in her answer.
Really she only got defensive when he told her to step out of her car and who can blame her. I think I would be startled as well if LE asked me to step out due to a traffic infraction.
And of course it all went bad during the car struggle. I can't blame her for that either. She probably thought he went crazy and she was alone. IMO

Respectfully,
1) Trooper tells her hello and why he stopped her, asked if she had her DL and insur then says Whats wrong? She already had some issue for him to ask that. JMHO around start at 2:40 http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-new-sandra-bland-video--20150722-story.html#page=1
2) SB stated that she got here yesterday when Trooper BE asked how long has she been in Texas.
3) SB own words were she was irritated, not amused/playful.
4) SB was defensive when she asked why she had to put the cig out in her own car.

 

[arkansasmimi]

So, accept your violation without protest, then address it later in court.

Interesting.

Any psychologists want to weigh in here?

That's what this Public Defenders Office says, and could have saved her bond $ and inconvenience of being in jail. Getting depressed and taking her own life, sadly.

Know Your Rights, Broward County Public Defender Office (FL) http://www.browarddefender.org/page3.html

 

[arkansasmimi]

You need money to go to court. What would she have won?

If she hadn't fought she wouldn't have had a Felony Assult on a Public Servant charge. But if she had gone to court she most likely could have got it dropped. JMHO. To begin with she only had a Warning...

“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?”

So she could have asked for a Public Defender when she went for Plea/Arraignment.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Anyone else notice @about the 7:00 mark, a male walking first on same side as SB car, then crosses over and last see him at the stop sign on left hand side of screen. I wonder if this is the person who did the video? Just saw it and wanted to point out http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-new-sandra-bland-video--20150722-story.html#page=1

 

[BritsKate]

If family hasn't figured it out in 26 years, how are correctional personnel supposed to know. I get that they have some training but there are so many drama queens in jail and also trying to bring lawsuits against the system. SB's family will more than likely try to make money from her death. Instead of being intellectually and factually honest about her personality and mental state, they are saying she would never try to kill herself. They know it's not true, IMO. But they will seek the blood money they hope is coming.

This is highly offensive and dismissive of Sandra Bland's family, in my opinion. First of all, when someone you love has mental health issues - even when you are trained to see warning signs - it is woefully easy to misinterpret signs. One can be in denial, or blame themselves, or hope external circumstances are the cause of their loved one's troubles - your feelings for the person color how you perceive the situation. As the mom to a mentally ill teen, I gotta say it took me a long time to accept the signs we were seeing (and my husband has over 10 years experience in mental health himself) - now that we've accepted that our daughter desperately needs help we can't give her, we're up against the odds in other ways. We can't afford private counseling yet CAMHS is under severe financial strain with some children and teens waiting months for treatment. In the meantime, as is common with untreated mental health illnesses, the situation is devolving. I can't predict that my daughter won't be stopped by police officers and questioned; I can't predict she won't cop one of her infamous attitudes; and I can't predict if she will attempt to take her life. I do KNOW that if my daughter is ever detained, I would expect the facility she is housed in to keep her safe, even if that means safe from herself.

Apologies for the personal anecdotes. There's a larger legal issue here though and that's that the jail assumes immediate caretaking for the person arrested. It is their legal duty to ensure the safety of inmates so I'd like to know why there were plastic bags in the cells at all? In 90% of hangings it is common, household items used (such as plastic bags). Was the intake procedure handled correctly? Was there trained staff able to deal with any mental health issues that arose? Was Sandra made aware of that and did she have access to such staff? Why do the handwritten notes on her mental health status and the computerized version differ? Why are there no notes that her self-harming was recognized? Why wasn't greater scrutiny paid to her having suffered recent losses and attempting suicide earlier this year?

So yeah, if I were in Sandra Bland's family's shoes, I'd be asking a lot of questions too. If it turns out the jail did not follow procedures correctly and she died as a result of such failures, even if by her own hand, I'd absolutely support her family in seeking financial compensation because that may well be all they can do to help ensure this never happens to anyone else. It would be no different than any other wrongful death suit to me. I don't see it as 'blood money' - I see it as possibly the only way of righting a wrong. We can only learn from our mistakes when we recognize them as mistakes. I'm quite certain no amount of 'blood money' can possibly fill the hole Sandra's passing has left in their hearts.

JMO

ETA: I've lost the post, but it is actually a misconception that all self-harmers hide their wounds and scars. The majority do but by no means all. I believed the same thing - until I got smacked back to earth with a teen daughter who is atypical - she has deliberately wounded herself in visible areas or chosen clothing that almost seems to highlight her self-harm. JME

 

[arkansasmimi]

Start at @12:20 mark she constantly cussing him, he telling her stand still and stop resisting, After he finally got her to turn around and so he could handcuff her, he goes to the front of his car, gets his clipboard/ticket book and closes the driver side door. He tells her to come over and read, that he was giving her a Warning. She continues to cuss him, he goes over and asked if she has anything on your person thats illegal and she cusses telling it a maxi dress, he takes her glasses off, and from what sounds like he is going to pat her down? thats when the whole resisting kicking elbow poking comes in, the female officer is there by then and tells her to quit resisting and then few seconds later tells Trooper BE I got her to go take care of himself http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-new-sandra-bland-video--20150722-story.html#page=1

If she had just stood still and calmed down, it would have been better for her. She created that whole scenario. JMHO

ETA she was on her stomach, they told her to roll over and and sit up on her butt to get up. That's when she got scraped on shoulder.

 

[katydid23]

Yes the coroner noticed the wounds, but no one else did??? There were 25 to 30 can't be bothered to get an exact count because math I guess.

I don't think it is a matter of 'not bothering' to count. I have a friend who used to cut herself. I have seen her scars. They criss-cross each other, and it is hard to make an exact count.

 

[katydid23]

Not sure where you live but unfortunately areas like south Los Angeles are not an anomaly. There are dangerous and scary war zones in almost every state and I admire the courageous police officers that risk their lives day in and day out trying to protect citizens of those high crime areas even though it seems like a high percentage of the citizens in those areas treat law enforcement with disdain.

THANK YOU. Great Post...and :welcome: to WS...:fireworks:

 

[arkansasmimi]

The female officer that came to the scene saw the scuffle. The dash cam shows her pointing to his leg and commenting about the mark. The charge was assaulting a PO. I don't see the charges being dismissed. Not a chance. But that's JMO.

Rewatching that part now, and I am going to have to change my opinion and agree. Also as far as the female officer allegedly being suspended (not saying she isn't just havent seen in writing) but I would think that is standard, pending an investigation, and would be more concerned if she isn't. JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

Yes the coroner noticed the wounds, but no one else did??? There were 25 to 30 can't be bothered to get an exact count because math I guess.

The size were in lengths of 3/16th of an inch to 1 in. So prob look like scratches unless looked closely. Visual to how small 3/16th is jmho and were on the inside of forearm so probably not as visible to someone random noticing. JMHO.

 

[arkansasmimi]

And that officer was suspended for her conduct, in the incident. That would have made her a really great witness.

The DA would have taken one look at this case and would have dropped the charges. He would look like a fool trying to prosecute a woman for refusing to put out a cigarette.

Do you have a link handy on Office Penny Goodie? IIRC her name unsure of spelling. I would think due to investigation she would be on leave of some sort. Haven't seen a link yet. Thanks. I still looking .