TX - Terri 'Missy' Bevers, 45, killed in church/suspect in SWAT gear, Midlothian, 18 Apr 2016 #46

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  • #781
Regarding the flooring in the auditorium, it is stained concrete just like the hallways.

On your timeline, now I’m wondering if I misunderstood you on your 2-minute overage. With your assumptions, you had SP spending 30 mins of time in the church, when the actual time was 28 minutes (3:50 to 4:18). So, you had the suspect spending 2 more minutes than they actually had. Am I correct on that?

So with my comments about SP maybe not able to walk as fast as you assumed, and maybe spending more time in the offices, that means we are slowing SP down, not speeding SP up. So we are not eliminating the 2-min overage. We are creating MORE of an overage. Right? Or am I off base?

GS, yes, you are correct. The slower SP moves, the more time we are piling up. What I should have said is, the slower the speed the less activities SP would be able to accomplish in the 28 min window. So he may spent less time looking for loot, not entering the auditorium through the SW doors etc. .

And yet they spent 8 min and app. 30 seconds to get from exiting room 8 to the traverse point (W to E hallway). Even if I cut the pace in the E hallway in half (we see him limping and tipping off the wall) and deduct the 30 seconds of hammering, I am still getting an average of over a minute per room- app. 63 seconds- (opening and or exploring) in the E and W hallways. So he is either speeding up in the remaining hallways (S and E and back to S), or he explored the rooms in the E and W hallway in more depth, or he flies through room 17. There is a change of pace. Could also be related to an inflicted injury to his right leg/ankle/ foot. The is a chance it may have happened while hammering the NE doors. (But then why not aborting the whole B&E plan..?)

ALL IMO

-Nin
 
  • #782
Our talented NIN has shown off for us again with a display of talent in composing a remarkable timeline of the SPs walk. My head bows to you, NIN, in honor of your arduous work and dedication to solving this murder mystery.



Perhaps the noise that alerts Missy is the sound he makes when he opens the auditorium door. The noise causes Missy to turn her head. Isn't that what the podiatrist said she did? In that way, the noise of an opening door grabs her attention so Missy turns her head to acknowledge it, perhaps, and finds herself surprised and shocked to see a faux Police Officer with his firearm drawn and pointing at her.

I feel quite ill just considering the implications. No matter that it's been years with this particular case, it remains just as frightening as it always has been.

edit for punctuation correction
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for punctuation correction

DeDee, thank you for being kind. I wished I have your skilled linguistic abilities to express myself more effectively when posting. English is not even my second language. ;--)

-Nin
 
  • #783
No. The cameras at Creekside did not have audio capability, period. What you heard on the CBS clip was an open studio mic, most likely the one belonging to the reporter that the show cut to after the surveillance video clip ended. I went on a forum for audio engineers and asked them to review it. That was their conclusion. They said that what people interpreted as “footsteps” did not have the qualities of what footsteps would actually sound like. You’re hearing a shuffling kind of sound. They said in an empty church with that stained concrete floor and the perp clearly picking up their feet and not shuffling, you would expect to hear distinct footsteps that would echo or reverberate in that environment.

But regardless - the cameras were video only.

Can you drop a copy of the audio engineers' report into my inbox, please? TIA

You addressed the sound of footsteps but ignored the noise of the opening of the Dutch Door that occurs at the precise time the SP opens it.

What you heard

I know what I hear in the video. The sounds seem to align with the movements of SP.

You’re hearing a shuffling kind of sound.

I hear the sounds of distinct footsteps that seem to coincide with SPs walking pattern. I also hear the sound of the uniform's fabric when the legs rub together while walking.

perp clearly picking up their feet and not shuffling

I described the sound of the footsteps as clomping; not shuffling.

It is not unusual to install surveillance cameras that have the capacity to record sound. In fact, I feel the podiatrist heard sound when he viewed the footage.

"Surveillance cameras with built-in microphones allow the easiest connection to a security video recorder. HDCVI cameras don't need a cable with an audio connector; the audio signal is combined with the video signal."
Security Cameras with Audio, Microphone CCTV Cameras | CCTVCameraWorld
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  • #784
Lots of places. And with less risk.

If this person supposedly put all this movie-worthy strategy and cunning into a plan to murder Missy at the church, why would they still be willing to carry it out when it’s 4:15 and there is STILL no sign of Missy... with early bird campers now likely to arrive within moments of, or simultaneously with, or even BEFORE, Missy?
Suspect is receiving info via established communication on MB's movements. MB is delayed. Suspect can abort their plan at any time, if necessary. In that case it just looks like a B&E.

And to @DeDee ’s scenario of SP hiding in the auditorium - how in the world is SP going to know if Missy is even going to come that far inside and how is SP going to know that she won’t have someone walking with her or standing just outside the door in plain view?
Suspect is being notified of MB's entering and is making a noise (hammers an object..not suspicious afterwards, since they are hammering things throughout the church). Nobody else is being reported as arriving. The Nissan driver for example could have been an accomplice and the source of MB's movements from when she leaves the house to arriving at the church.

If the answer is, “Well, SP was willing to accept collateral damage,” then why kill her inside the church, having hung around and gone on a tour for the longest time? Why not just drive into the lot right as they begin workouts and shoot them all while they’re exercising in the parking lot, or if they’re inside, rush in and blow them all away with a semi-automatic ? Or any other number of scenarios - block the end of her rural road with your car and shoot her when she stops. Or go break into her house overnight and shoot her in her bed.
Without suspecting family ties, but in theory compare it with the Sievers case. MS made sure the kids would believe (without doubt) their mother was murdered while interrupting a burglary. Plan B was then to claim MS' friens had an affair with his wife and he decided to murder her..The story here with MB could stand as "interrupted burglary".

Or if you have the argument of, “Well, they thought they had planned everything out but they didn’t know about the early bird workout”, it doesn’t make much sense to assume they’re capable of all this planning but would make such a boneheaded omission as to not even know when her workouts actually started.
10 minutes between MB's accomplished murder (by 4:20am) and the time an early camper would arrive, seems enough time to escape via save route towards the NE of the church. In all the timeline 10 minutes are almost a third of the total time the suspect has spent inside the church. And look at all the things he did. In the end a vehicle had been observed possibly leaving the church at around the time the early campers may have arrived already. The campers would in the S parking lot and possibly parked closer to the church because of the weather conditions. Difficult, if even possible to see anyone leaving the property, especially if they turned off their headlights while approaching the main road ( and then turning them on of course).

Honestly, put yourself in the mindset of this killer who supposedly has it in for Missy and has decided to kill her. The drawing board is empty and you can come up with any plan you want. Maybe you do decide to make it happen at the church. But... would you really break in so much earlier than needed? Would you really break in at all, when it would be super easy to hide in the bushes near the awning entrance and blow her away as soon as she steps out of her truck? There is nothing around the church. No one would hear the gunshot.
The story of B&E is an essential part of the plan. That was the negotiated condition of the entire maneuver. In theory only.

But instead, what so many want to go with is a super intelligent killer who tries to fake a burglary but yet doesn’t fool anyone (except apparently me) because in all his Mission Impossible intelligence, he forgets to actually TAKE anything. Right.
He may not have found anything worthwhile stealing..Yes, they are smart.

And this “smart” guy apparently can walk all over the church, doing whatever, not bothering to be near the place his “target” will enter, yet he must believe that it is all magically going to work out. And somehow it does. That’s when you invent a whole other character in this scenario - The Accomplice - despite there being zero indication of such.
Yes, that scenario is only possible with an accomplice. We do not know where LE stands with that at this time. Zero indication..would that include the Nissan vehicle?

My comments in bold above. All theory of course.

If this was an interrupted burglary, we have to accept the outfit of the suspect as such and also the fact, that their shoes seem to be disproportionate to their height. The suspect is loaded down with gear including a balaclava and helmet, which would literally be in the way of an emergency escape, unless they have a condition, which prevents them from running. But then, why trying to enter via kitchen window first, unless they were checking for a perimeter alarm system. Hearing would be impaired as well, unless we have a deaf burglar.

If this was a targeted hit, then the only way to pull this off successfully IMO, is if it was planned long ahead of time. An accomplice would be essential. IMO The hit would have to then be initiated by someone from MB's inner circle/family. Don't want to go there.

If this was a targeted hit towards the church, one could expect the suspect to be a member of that church and thus be aware of any early morning activities from non church related groups. MB's gladiator group by the way was not the first fitness entity working out at the church, you will be aware of that.

If this was a fantasy run - no pun intended- , I still have to question the oversized shoes. Now we have an individual, who broke into a church limping at first and later displaying a characteristic "turn" of his right hip/leg/foot plus they are wearing oversized shoes for what? To cover up a disability and make one think they are limping because of the fake large shoes? A handicapped burglar. Should have parked in the assigned handicapped parking lot then..If they planned on a B&E fantasy "limp", why did they not break in shortly after possibly testing out the church's alarm provision (hammering the NE doors, bending up the screen of the kitchen window)? Or did they? Then why staying inside the kitchen area until 3:50am?

If this was a targeted hit against MB by a scorned wife / male or female stalker acting alone and borrowing someone else's uniform, she would have accomplished the murder and would have escaped by sheer luck. Unless the scorned wife/male of female stalker is or was an experienced member of LE, huh..

Lots of stuff going on there. Good healthy discussion.

ALL IMO

-Nin
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for punctuation correction
 
  • #785
Can you drop a copy of the audio engineers' report into my inbox, please? TIA

You addressed the sound of footsteps but ignored the noise of the opening of the Dutch Door that occurs at the precise time the SP opens it.



I know what I hear in the video. The sounds seem to align with the movements of SP.



I hear the sounds of distinct footsteps that seem to coincide with SPs walking pattern. I also hear the sound of the uniform's fabric when the legs rub together while walking.



I described the sound of the footsteps as clomping; not shuffling.

It is not unusual to install surveillance cameras that have the capacity to record sound. In fact, I feel the podiatrist heard sound when he viewed the footage.

"Surveillance cameras with built-in microphones allow the easiest connection to a security video recorder. HDCVI cameras don't need a cable with an audio connector; the audio signal is combined with the video signal."
Security Cameras with Audio, Microphone CCTV Cameras | CCTVCameraWorld
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I totally agree that the audio aligns with the killers movements which seems crazy since the audio is from the news reporter and not from the church. But when SP grabs the door handle it’s like someone in the studio did it at the same time? Then when Brandon is being interviewed, he’s outside you can hear outside noises but it sounds exactly like SP walking through the church when they show the video.

So I agree the sounds align, but I think it’s just coincidence.
 
  • #786
See comments inline below in bold, and then also some very important notes at bottom.

Can you drop a copy of the audio engineers' report into my inbox, please? TIA
Not going to do that. In my 10 Myths article I already summarized their thoughts about it.

You addressed the sound of footsteps but ignored the noise of the opening of the Dutch Door that occurs at the precise time the SP opens it.

Your eyes are seeing something and your brain is tricked into matching it with a sound that is occurring at the same time. If you had been sent an audio file of it and listened to it for the first time with no reference at all to where it was from, I doubt you would say, “That sounds like the killer in the Missy Bevers video walking and opening a door.”

I know what I hear in the video. The sounds seem to align with the movements of SP.

See above.

I hear the sounds of distinct footsteps that seem to coincide with SPs walking pattern. I also hear the sound of the uniform's fabric when the legs rub together while walking.

That is not what real footsteps would sound like in an empty building on a hard surface. And the fabric rustling - if that is what you hear - is likely the reporter’s own clothing as she gets into position to be on camera when Gayle King sends it over to her.

I described the sound of the footsteps as clomping; not shuffling.

It is not unusual to install surveillance cameras that have the capacity to record sound. I didn’t say there aren’t cameras out there that record sound. I said THESE cameras don’t have that capability. And I have that from sources who would know. In fact, I feel the podiatrist heard sound when he viewed the footage. What he said was that Missy jerked her head “as if” she heard something. He really could not have determined whether she heard, or saw, or both. But if he was actually hearing sound, he wouldn’t have qualified it with “as if”.

"Surveillance cameras with built-in microphones allow the easiest connection to a security video recorder. HDCVI cameras don't need a cable with an audio connector; the audio signal is combined with the video signal."
Security Cameras with Audio, Microphone CCTV Cameras | CCTVCameraWorld
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In closing, I will point out that MPD made the surveillance video available to all media from one common source - its own YouTube channel. CBS got the same footage that literally every other media outlet has gotten in the 5-year history of this case. MPD did not decide to give this one outlet a special version that contained sound. Common sense, right?

Even if you block everything else out and consider just the CBS clip and no other source info, the clip itself clues you in to the fact that the surveillance piece has no sound. They play the Dutch door sequence several times during the segment, including at around the 1:15 mark when - surprise, surprise - there is NO AUDIO... only the narration over it.

Two audio engineers who were not familiar with the case watched the clip independently of one another and reached the same conclusions. And so did Brandon, who is an experienced sound technician in his own right. Plus, other very close contacts who would definitely know about the church’s system capabilities also confirmed, no audio.

Also, the police showed the original video to the family at the police station. No sound.

You are free to believe what you want to believe, but I am free to tell you that you are wrong.
 
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  • #787
GS, yes, you are correct. The slower SP moves, the more time we are piling up. What I should have said is, the slower the speed the less activities SP would be able to accomplish in the 28 min window. So he may spent less time looking for loot, not entering the auditorium through the SW doors etc. .

And yet they spent 8 min and app. 30 seconds to get from exiting room 8 to the traverse point (W to E hallway). Even if I cut the pace in the E hallway in half (we see him limping and tipping off the wall) and deduct the 30 seconds of hammering, I am still getting an average of over a minute per room- app. 63 seconds- (opening and or exploring) in the E and W hallways. So he is either speeding up in the remaining hallways (S and E and back to S), or he explored the rooms in the E and W hallway in more depth, or he flies through room 17. There is a change of pace. Could also be related to an inflicted injury to his right leg/ankle/ foot. The is a chance it may have happened while hammering the NE doors. (But then why not aborting the whole B&E plan..?)

ALL IMO

-Nin
Keep in mind that Rooms 6, 7, and 8 are entirely accessible from each other internally without ever entering the North hall. There would be zero reason to revisit any of these from the hall itself.

Thus, this leaves at least 8 minutes and 30 seconds to do whatever SP did with regard to Rooms 5, 4, and 3 and possibly the auditorium access at the NW corner - including the access door to where the AV people and equipment are setup for services, etc.

Also, I would regard 3:50 as an approximation and it is possible the actual time could be anywhere from 3:48 to 3:52.

Just for completeness, it is also possible the opening sequence of the long MPD video is not the first time SP was seen on camera and SP emerging from Room 8 is later in time than we think.
 
  • #788
Keep in mind that Rooms 6, 7, and 8 are entirely accessible from each other internally without ever entering the North hall. There would be zero reason to revisit any of these from the hall itself.

Thus, this leaves at least 8 minutes and 30 seconds to do whatever SP did with regard to Rooms 5, 4, and 3 and possibly the auditorium access at the NW corner - including the access door to where the AV people and equipment are setup for services, etc.

Also, I would regard 3:50 as an approximation and it is possible the actual time could be anywhere from 3:48 to 3:52.

Just for completeness, it is also possible the opening sequence of the long MPD video is not the first time SP was seen on camera and SP emerging from Room 8 is later in time than we think.
Not absolutely positive on this but I don’t believe that rooms 6 and 7 have an internal door between them. Only 7 and 8, and that’s because they are functionally related to one another. Unless you have a pic or other info that room 6 has an internal connecting door to 7? If so, I would like to update the layout.
 
  • #789
I’m not active on this case but have followed from the beginning.
My father-in-law was a member at Creekside and I’ve been there several times over the years.

I’ve never felt that this was a burglary gone bad or random opportunistic killing. I’ve felt that Missy was absolutely targeted.

My theory is that it was someone obsessed. Not obsessed with Missy though.
Obsessed with BB.
Thoughts?
 
  • #790
Not absolutely positive on this but I don’t believe that rooms 6 and 7 have an internal door between them. Only 7 and 8, and that’s because they are functionally related to one another. Unless you have a pic or other info that room 6 has an internal connecting door to 7? If so, I would like to update the layout.
Not taking time to obfuscate people from photos to show it all on the thread but I did send you a set of photos that shows that there is a door between Rooms 6 and 7. It is on the basis of those photos why my map had a door between those two rooms. It should be pretty clear when you see the photos that there is a door there.
 
  • #791
Not taking time to obfuscate people from photos to show it all on the thread but I did send you a set of photos that shows that there is a door between Rooms 6 and 7. It is on the basis of those photos why my map had a door between those two rooms. It should be pretty clear when you see the photos that there is a door there.
Thanks. I don’t think my layout source had actually seen into those rooms because they’re usually closed. I’ll correct my layout but see my reply to you with some questions.
 
  • #792
Lots of places. And with less risk.

If this person supposedly put all this movie-worthy strategy and cunning into a plan to murder Missy at the church, why would they still be willing to carry it out when it’s 4:15 and there is STILL no sign of Missy... with early bird campers now likely to arrive within moments of, or simultaneously with, or even BEFORE, Missy?
Missy was not lackadaisical. MB enters at 4:18am or twelve minutes before a couple of her early birds Gladiators are due which would typically allow time for her to unload equipment. SP ends his tour at a location of which we are not certain but can approximate being along the Western Hallway.

According to NIN's calculations, it requires SP – app.27.7 seconds in order to traverse the W Hallway. Cut 27.7 seconds in half for time required to get to the purple table. SP has eleven minutes. The attack occurs within two minutes then allow another minute for SP to get to his exit point. SP has eight minutes in order to hop into his vehicle and depart the scene. If one of the first participants arrives 8min early, an observant person could possibly see a vehicle depart the campus. However, some folks would look at their phones for a few minutes during down time in order to check email or whatnot.

Sure they would see MBs truck but wouldn't they wait until MB at least returned to her truck in order to perhaps be of assistance w/ the remainder of the equipment?
And to @DeDee ’s scenario of SP hiding in the auditorium - how in the world is SP going to know if Missy is even going to come that far inside and how is SP going to know that she won’t have someone walking with her or standing just outside the door in plain view?
SP knew precisely where MB would deposit mats, sign in sheets and other various equipment, well in advance, imho. The area at the Western entrance and between the doors into the auditorium contains the most convenient large space.

SP cannot rely upon the early arrivers' behavior. However, betcha a donut that SP knew MB would most likely enter for the first time alone. Furthermore, I don't think SP cared if there was collateral damage.
If the answer is, “Well, SP was willing to accept collateral damage,” then why kill her inside the church, having hung around and gone on a tour for the longest time? Why not just drive into the lot right as they begin workouts and shoot them all while they’re exercising in the parking lot, or if they’re inside, rush in and blow them all away with a semi-automatic ? Or any other number of scenarios - block the end of her rural road with your car and shoot her when she stops. Or go break into her house overnight and shoot her in her bed.
This particular murder was a premeditated attack on MB in order to end her life, jmho. Entering the Church would confuse LEO into assuming, at first glance, that this horrific event was an interrupted burglary. SPs plan was not for a mass shooting.

It's highly probable that MB entered the Church every time, rain or shine, that she arrived for any, including early bird workouts, as participants need access to the Restrooms.

Shooting Missy at home or at the end of her street would clearly be an assassination. This murder had to appear to be a B&E gone woefully wrong.
Or if you have the argument of, “Well, they thought they had planned everything out but they didn’t know about the early bird workout”, it doesn’t make much sense to assume they’re capable of all this planning but would make such a boneheaded omission as to not even know when her workouts actually started.

Honestly, put yourself in the mindset of this killer who supposedly has it in for Missy and has decided to kill her. The drawing board is empty and you can come up with any plan you want. Maybe you do decide to make it happen at the church. But... would you really break in so much earlier than needed? Would you really break in at all, when it would be super easy to hide in the bushes near the awning entrance and blow her away as soon as she steps out of her truck? There is nothing around the church. No one would hear the gunshot.
From a targeted murder perspective, roaming the hallways, messing around in rooms was planned in order to bamboozle SPs true intentions. Again, if SP is hidden in the bushes at the awning while awaiting her arrival, it would clearly be an assassination.
But instead, what so many want to go with is a super intelligent killer who tries to fake a burglary but yet doesn’t fool anyone (except apparently me) because in all his Mission Impossible intelligence, he forgets to actually TAKE anything. Right.
I don't think any killer's nature requires them to possess a high IQ. In fact, they are criminal minded evil idiots, imho, who don't mind gunning down innocent people. SP did not forget to remove items if SP is not there to take stuff. However, by not taking valuable items it reinforces the interrupted B&E burglary theory.
yet doesn’t fool anyone (except apparently me)
Have you ever considered that you may be wrong and the majority are correct on the targeted position?
And this “smart” guy apparently can walk all over the church, doing whatever, not bothering to be near the place his “target” will enter, yet he must believe that it is all magically going to work out. And somehow it does. That’s when you invent a whole other character in this scenario - The Accomplice - despite there being zero indication of such.
In a well planned event, allowances for errors/adjustments are included. I feel this SP has a military, LEO or some sort of training background that lends SPs ability to methodically execute the event but it is not a necessary requirement. SP managed to aim his firearm successfully on target.

If we were able to easily garner data from the Church's website, and we did, it's highly likely SP viewed images of the interior/exterior as well. Monetary gain from a targeted hit viewpoint, for instance, precludes a successful execution.

There is no proof that SP had it out for MB; hated or despised her. His assignment was to successfully kill Missy Bevers. Period. JMHO
 
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  • #793
If this person supposedly put all this movie-worthy strategy and cunning into a plan to murder Missy at the church, why would they still be willing to carry it out when it’s 4:15 and there is STILL no sign of Missy... with early bird campers now likely to arrive within moments of, or simultaneously with, or even BEFORE, Missy?
Missy was not lackadaisical. MB enters at 4:18am or twelve minutes before a couple of her early birds Gladiators are due which would typically allow time for her to unload equipment. SP ends his tour at a location of which we are not certain but can approximate being along the Western Hallway. (GS snipped for brevity and focus)
Missy normally got to the church around 4:00, not 4:18. This was in the dispatch report, recorded by LE as told to them by one of the campers. So she was running late. If she normally got there at 4, why is SP only emerging 10 mins before that on the other side of the church and then proceeding to tour the church rather than looking for her? As far as you saying we can "approximate SP being along the Western Hallway", that is true if you are meaning to include the main entrance and the auditorium. You yourself already postulated that SP might be in the auditorium. And actually we would probably have to include the north hallway as well. SP could have been making noise or walking along that hallway. We only know Missy jerked her head and then started up the W hallway, so basically we can figure SP could not have been on the S hall and most likely not the E hall either, because Missy is visually and/or audibly led to venture up the W hallway. Basically, SP could be anywhere in the western half of the building at that point. And my point remains - if SP has done all this planning and knows she normally gets there at 4 and knows (as I do) that the early birds were normally always on time and began promptly at 4:30, then why does SP behave the way they do and why do they not abort the "mission" when she hasn't shown by 4:15? Whether a personal targeted attack or a hitman, it seems like they wouldn't stick around with the timeline so tight. And it sure seems like they would be behaving differently than the way we see them behaving between 3:50 and 4:15.
And to @DeDee ’s scenario of SP hiding in the auditorium - how in the world is SP going to know if Missy is even going to come that far inside and how is SP going to know that she won’t have someone walking with her or standing just outside the door in plain view?
SP knew precisely where MB would deposit mats, sign in sheets and other various equipment, well in advance, imho. The area at the Western entrance and between the doors into the auditorium contains the most convenient large space.

SP cannot rely upon the early arrivers' behavior. However, betcha a donut that SP knew MB would most likely enter for the first time alone. Furthermore, I don't think SP cared if there was collateral damage.
How do you think SP would know so much about what MB was going to do? Along with all the other circumstances that you believe SP controls, do you believe they controlled the weather too? They had no way of knowing whether the weather was going to allow the class to work out under the awning or if they were going to move inside. If you assume SP monitored Missy's FB, her last comment is that they have cover under the awning. The class only moved indoors when it was colder than 35 or storming - not gentle rain but actually storming. The times they moved inside were rare. So how is SP going to be able to plan for this? The answer is, they couldn't have. For all they knew, she was going to unlock the doors so that campers could use the bathroom if need be, but not go inside herself. No need to, if the workout was going to be either beneath the awning or out in the parking lot, as it was 99% of the time.
If the answer is, “Well, SP was willing to accept collateral damage,” then why kill her inside the church, having hung around and gone on a tour for the longest time? Why not just drive into the lot right as they begin workouts and shoot them all while they’re exercising in the parking lot, or if they’re inside, rush in and blow them all away with a semi-automatic ? Or any other number of scenarios - block the end of her rural road with your car and shoot her when she stops. Or go break into her house overnight and shoot her in her bed.
This particular murder was a premeditated attack on MB in order to end her life, jmho. Entering the Church would confuse LEO into assuming, at first glance, that this horrific event was an interrupted burglary. SPs plan was not for a mass shooting.

It's highly probable that MB entered the Church every time, rain or shine, that she arrived for any, including early bird workouts, as participants need access to the Restrooms.

Shooting Missy at home or at the end of her street would clearly be an assassination. This murder had to appear to be a B&E gone woefully wrong.
If SP intended to "confuse LEO" that this was an interrupted burglary, then why not do more to remove the ambiguity? If you are wanting to APPEAR to be a burglar while committing a pre-meditated murder, why dress up as LE? Burglars don't typically do that, right? The first thing most people ask me when I talk about interrupted burglary is, "Is there precedent for other burglaries in the area at churches or other buildings in which the burglar dressed similarly?" People realize that this isn't a run-of-the-mill burglary. But if SP wanted it to APPEAR to be, seems like they would have fallen into stereotypes - wearing a ski mask or maybe a hoodie, etc. If they want it to appear to be a burglary, then they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. They also could have left trash bags laying around, could have made sure they were on camera taking something of value. They could have unplugged a computer monitor and put it by the exit as if they intended to steal it, etc. For all the premeditation that you think SP put into this, they sure suck at being convincing. And I disagree with you on it being "highly probable that MB entered the church every time." What basis do you have for saying that? I've talked to the early bird campers themselves, and even THEY have no idea what Missy's routine would be before their arrival. All we know is that she unlocked the doors. But that did not require entering. And why do you think the murder "had to appear to be a B&E gone woefully wrong"? Why would SP have a NEED for that? Are you thinking it's because a connection to Missy would be apparent and SP didn't want that? If that's the case, how come, even with police saying even on day 1 that they had questions about it being a burglary, no connection has been made yet? SP obviously failed, by your theory, in faking a burglary. Police as far as we know have never pursued that theory; instead they pursued a target list of people all with a connection to Missy, and then BWH who they also believed would have targeted Missy. So if SP thought it was necessary to fake a burglary to avoid detection, why didn't their failure to pull off the fake burglary result in identification and arrest?
But instead, what so many want to go with is a super intelligent killer who tries to fake a burglary but yet doesn’t fool anyone (except apparently me) because in all his Mission Impossible intelligence, he forgets to actually TAKE anything. Right.
I don't think any killer's nature requires them to possess a high IQ. In fact, they are criminal minded evil idiots, imho, who don't mind gunning down innocent people. SP did not forget to remove items if SP is not there to take stuff. However, by not taking valuable items it reinforces the interrupted B&E burglary theory.
When I talk of intelligence I am not necessarily speaking of IQ. It can be all the planning and organization and research. That is where you have landed with SP. And yet despite all of that, SP did not accomplish what you believe was their most important goal beyond killing Missy - making it seem like it wasn’t an assassination.
yet doesn’t fool anyone (except apparently me)
Have you ever considered that you may be wrong and the majority are correct on the targeted position?
Of course I have. I tell everyone, all the time, that I “lean toward it being untargeted.” Never once do I take the black and white position you do when you say something like “This particular murder was a premeditated attack on MB in order to end her life.” So tell me, who is the one who isn’t considering that they may be wrong? A lot of new evidence has been revealed since we re-opened these threads; have you re-examined your theory about this case in the light of the evidence, or do you take the new evidence and force it to fit a theory you’re already dead set on?
And this “smart” guy apparently can walk all over the church, doing whatever, not bothering to be near the place his “target” will enter, yet he must believe that it is all magically going to work out. And somehow it does. That’s when you invent a whole other character in this scenario - The Accomplice - despite there being zero indication of such.
In a well planned event, allowances for errors/adjustments are included. I feel this SP has a military, LEO or some sort of training background that lends SPs ability to methodically execute the event but it is not a necessary requirement. SP managed to aim his firearm successfully on target.
So you think SP would basically dress as what they are (or used to be) - LE or military. Does that seem smart to you? Again, they’re supposed to be faking a burglary. So now you have them not only failing to do the things a burglar would do - you have them dressing in such a way that it potentially gives LE a big lead on profiling and identifying them. And your answer didn’t really address what I said. I questioned why SP would go all over the place and not even seem to be aware of time or of entry location. Does that seem like something this organized, methodical, LE or military trained SP would do when setting up for a kill?
If we were able to easily garner data from the Church's website, and we did, it's highly likely SP viewed images of the interior/exterior as well. Monetary gain from a targeted hit viewpoint, for instance, precludes a successful execution.
I’m not sure where you come up with the idea of SP looking at pictures of the church online, much less determining that it’s “highly likely”. It just seems that you’re working backward from your talented hitman theory, and so you figure that looking up the church online is something that they would do. As for “monetary gain from a targeted hit”, how do you suppose the hitman and the person who hired said hitman managed to get away with it for 5 years? With (1) no evidence of a financial transaction for police to find; and (2)No other people finding out about it despite the fact that you’ve involved more than one person in this thing; and (3) the fact that Person 1 managed to hire Hitman successfully without accidentally getting an undercover cop as they often do?
There is no proof that SP had it out for MB; hated or despised her. His assignment was to successfully kill Missy Bevers. Period. JMHO
So far there is no proof that SP even knew who Missy was or expected her to come walking in, much less hating or despising her.

With new evidence that comes out, I keep allowing for the fact that something might come to light that pushes me back toward targeted. I mean, I have been there before, with BWH.
  • The gunshot came out - that didn’t really point one way or the other. Burglars carry guns, same as hitmen.
  • Details about the early bird campers came out. That upended the whole timeline. We could no longer think of SP has having plenty of cushion. A strike against targeted.
  • Details about the outside camera that wasn’t working came out. Turned out there was no possibility of tampering. Just bad luck. So there is a strike against targeted.
  • Details about the mystery object came out. instead of some sort of Dexter-style kill box, it turned out to be a storage tray containing small, non-sharp tools that would not be helpful in a murder. A strike against targeted.
There are probably others that I’m not thinking of right now. But bottom line is that everything that comes out does nothing to help the targeted cause. So it’s not that I’m insisting on being right. I’m perfectly fine to be wrong. I actually HOPE I am wrong, because targeted is going to be easier to crack than untargeted. But give me some things that actually point toward targeted in a meaningful way so that I can get behind it. So far, that isn’t happening, and anything that does come out just points me in the other direction.
 
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  • #794
Wow! I can hear footsteps and a click as SP opens the dutch doors.
I can hear the click on the Dutch doors, too.

So LE has some audio. And LE has been clear that they do not have the attack or altercation on video. Does that mean they do not have audio? e.g. the video and audio are both motion-detector activation and shutoff?
 
  • #795
Missy normally got to the church around 4:00, not 4:18. This was in the dispatch report, recorded by LE as told to them by one of the campers. So she was running late. If she normally got there at 4, why is SP only emerging 10 mins before that on the other side of the church and then proceeding to tour the church rather than looking for her? As far as you saying we can "approximate SP being along the Western Hallway", that is true if you are meaning to include the main entrance and the auditorium. You yourself already postulated that SP might be in the auditorium. And actually we would probably have to include the north hallway as well. SP could have been making noise or walking along that hallway. We only know Missy jerked her head and then started up the W hallway, so basically we can figure SP could not have been on the S hall and most likely not the E hall either, because Missy is visually and/or audibly led to venture up the W hallway. Basically, SP could be anywhere in the western half of the building at that point. And my point remains - if SP has done all this planning and knows she normally gets there at 4 and knows (as I do) that the early birds were normally always on time and began promptly at 4:30, then why does SP behave the way they do and why do they not abort the "mission" when she hasn't shown by 4:15? Whether a personal targeted attack or a hitman, it seems like they wouldn't stick around with the timeline so tight. And it sure seems like they would be behaving differently than the way we see them behaving between 3:50 and 4:15.


How do you think SP would know so much about what MB was going to do? Along with all the other circumstances that you believe SP controls, do you believe they controlled the weather too? They had no way of knowing whether the weather was going to allow the class to work out under the awning or if they were going to move inside. If you assume SP monitored Missy's FB, her last comment is that they have cover under the awning. The class only moved indoors when it was colder than 35 or storming - not gentle rain but actually storming. The times they moved inside were rare. So how is SP going to be able to plan for this? The answer is, they couldn't have. For all they knew, she was going to unlock the doors so that campers could use the bathroom if need be, but not go inside herself.


If SP intended to "confuse LEO" that this was an interrupted burglary, then why not do more to remove the ambiguity? If you are wanting to APPEAR to be a burglar while committing a pre-meditated murder, why dress up as LE? Burglars don't typically do that, right? The first thing most people ask me when I talk about interrupted burglary is, "Is there precedent for other burglaries in the area at churches or other buildings in which the burglar dressed similarly?" People realize that this isn't a run-of-the-mill burglary. But if SP wanted it to APPEAR to be, seems like they would have fallen into stereotypes - wearing a ski mask or maybe a hoodie, etc. If they want it to appear to be a burglary, then they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. They also could have left trash bags laying around, could have made sure they were on camera taking something of value. They could have unplugged a computer monitor and put it by the exit as if they intended to steal it, etc. For all the premeditation that you think SP put into this, they sure suck at being convincing. And I disagree with you on it being "highly probable that MB entered the church every time." What basis do you have for saying that? I've talked to the early bird campers themselves, and even THEY have no idea what Missy's routine would be before their arrival. All we know is that she unlocked the doors. But that did not require entering. And why do you think the murder "had to appear to be a B&E gone woefully wrong"? Why would SP have a NEED for that? Are you thinking it's because a connection to Missy would be apparent and SP didn't want that? If that's the case, how come, even with police saying even on day 1 that they had questions about it being a burglary, no connection has been made yet? SP obviously failed, by your theory, in faking a burglary. Police as far as we know have never pursued that theory; instead they pursued a target list of people all with a connection to Missy, and then BWH who they also believed would have targeted Missy. So if SP thought it was necessary to fake a burglary to avoid detection, why didn't their failure to pull off the fake burglary result in identification and arrest?


When I talk of intelligence I am not necessarily speaking of IQ. It can be all the planning and organization and research. That is where you have landed with SP. And yet despite all of that, SP did not accomplish what you believe was their most important goal beyond killing Missy - making it seem like it wasn’t an assassination.


Of course I have. I tell everyone, all the time, that I “lean toward it being untargeted.” Never once do I take the black and white position you do when you say something like “This particular murder was a premeditated attack on MB in order to end her life.” So tell me, who is the one who isn’t considering that they may be wrong? A lot of new evidence has been revealed since we re-opened these threads; have you re-examined your theory about this case in the light of the evidence, or do you take the new evidence and force it to fit a theory you’re already dead set on?


So you think SP would basically dress as what they are (or used to be) - LE or military. Does that seem smart to you? Again, they’re supposed to be faking a burglary. So now you have them not only failing to do the things a burglar would do - you have them dressing in such a way that it potentially gives LE a big lead on profiling and identifying them. And your answer didn’t really address what I said. I questioned why SP would go all over the place and not even seem to be aware of time or of entry location. Does that seem like something this organized, methodical, LE or military trained SP would do when setting up for a kill?

I’m not sure where you come up with the idea of SP looking at pictures of the church online, much less determining that it’s “highly likely”. It just seems that you’re working backward from your talented hitman theory, and so you figure that looking up the church online is something that they would do. As for “monetary gain from a targeted hit”, how do you suppose the hitman and the person who hired said hitman managed to get away with it for 5 years? With (1) no evidence of a financial transaction for police to find; and (2)No other people finding out about it despite the fact that you’ve involved more than one person in this thing; and (3) the fact that Person 1 managed to hire Hitman successfully without accidentally getting an undercover cop as they often do?

So far there is no proof that SP even knew who Missy was or expected her to come walking in, much less hating or despising her.

With new evidence that comes out, I keep allowing for the fact that something might come to light that pushes me back toward targeted. I mean, I have been there before, with BWH.
  • The gunshot came out - that didn’t really point one way or the other. Burglars carry guns, same as hitmen.
  • Details about the early bird campers came out. That upended the whole timeline. We could no longer think of SP has having plenty of cushion. A strike against targeted.
  • Details about the outside camera that wasn’t working came out. Turned out there was no possibility of tampering. Just bad luck. So there is a strike against targeted.
  • Details about the mystery object came out. instead of some sort of Dexter-style kill box, it turned out to be a storage tray containing small, non-sharp tools that would not be helpful in a murder. A strike against targeted.
There are probably others that I’m not thinking of right now. But bottom line is that everything that comes out does nothing to help the targeted cause. So it’s not that I’m insisting on being right. I’m perfectly fine to be wrong. I actually HOPE I am wrong, because targeted is going to be easier to crack than untargeted. But give me some things that actually point toward targeted in a meaningful way so that I can get behind it. So far, that isn’t happening, and anything that does come out just points me in the other direction.

Great debate. I'll have a rebuttal :)

<modsnip> I'm embedded in 4 other major cases plus Mollie's trial has begun. Also, I have a personal life to live. Important birthday parties and such to prepare for so I'll get back to this discussion when it's possible.
.
 
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  • #796
Is there precedent for other murders in the area at churches or other buildings?
 
  • #797
I can hear the click on the Dutch doors, too.

So LE has some audio. And LE has been clear that they do not have the attack or altercation on video. Does that mean they do not have audio? e.g. the video and audio are both motion-detector activation and shutoff?
From a source who would know:

54A8D7A5-E75E-40F7-96D4-23AD880D274E.jpeg
 
  • #798
Is there precedent for other murders in the area at churches or other buildings?
Depends what you mean by “in the area”. Midlothian has had very few murders of any kind. But Dallas/Ft Worth is 40 mins away along a well-traveled highway. Obviously they have tons of murders of every conceivable type.

Here are some statistics about deadly force incidents that occur at churches nationwide. Some are murders, some are police deadly force incidents. Among the murders there are multiple categories for domestic violence, robberies, hate crimes, etc. Carl Chinn is a guy who started keeping stats, and then another organization took over the task.

Church Security Expert Carl Chinn:
Home

Statistics on Deadly Force Incidents at Churches (continuing Chin’s original work):
https://fbsnamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/AA-web-2019-Church-violence-statistics.pdf

From that website here are some of the most recent deadly force incidents:

Deadly Force Incident History – Faith Based Security Network

Summary of the DFI stats from 1999 thru 2018:

5210BFEE-518F-41CE-B4E8-0C350B85F838.png

https://fbsnamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Church-DFI-statistics-through-March-2018.pdf

And here is a 2012 article about church burglaries being on the rise:
Churches no longer a sanctuary from crime as burglaries rise

Article about the Lakewood Church burglary:
Thieves take $600,000 from Lakewood Church safe

My podcast in which I go over a lot of the above info, if you care to listen (this one is audio-only):
Gumshoe Stories 6 - NEW Police Update on Missy Bevers
 
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  • #799
sbm
In a well planned event, allowances for errors/adjustments are included. I feel this SP has a military, LEO or some sort of training background that lends SPs ability to methodically execute the event but it is not a necessary requirement. SP managed to aim his firearm successfully on target.

If we were able to easily garner data from the Church's website, and we did, it's highly likely SP viewed images of the interior/exterior as well. Monetary gain from a targeted hit viewpoint, for instance, precludes a successful execution.

There is no proof that SP had it out for MB; hated or despised her. His assignment was to successfully kill Missy Bevers. Period. JMHO

sbm
I actually HOPE I am wrong, because targeted is going to be easier to crack than untargeted. But give me some things that actually point toward targeted in a meaningful way so that I can get behind it. So far, that isn’t happening, and anything that does come out just points me in the other direction.

bbm
DeDee and Gumshoe Stories,
thank you very much for your explanation of your point of view - verrry interesting!

I'm not more sure than before reading, still tending to unscrupulously "targeted by an intelligent, organized, risk-loving killer" (possibly hired). Your discussion will help to clear the inconsistencies, for me at least (I hope so). :)
 
  • #800
My theory is that it was someone obsessed. Not obsessed with Missy though.
Obsessed with BB.
Thoughts?
I think it is possible.

One element that might make this possibility more likely is that both individuals were involved in uhmm...... "extracurricular" activities that do not exactly lend themselves to objective thinking amongst all participants.

Likewise, there is plenty of room for an emotionally driven cause and effect "analysis", changed expectations, arbitrary rule changes and "Dont want to follow my own rules" type behavior
 
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