TX: Transgender teen boy wins girls high school state wrestling title

[gitana1]

For me, this has always been an issue of the testosterone use, not an issue of gender identity specifically-- though as I posted earlier in the thread, the situation in the reverse, with a 6'2" 260 lb MTF transitioning teen wrestling on a high school girls team is disturbing. The NCAA has a solution for that situation, which requires the MTF transgender person to take testosterone blockers for at least one year, and submit testing results. The athlete is ineligible to compete during the year of T-blocking meds.

I think the only fair way for high schools to proceed is to establish policies that are in accordance with other sports agencies, such as the NCAA (collegiate sports authority).

This would require trans students, and perhaps even all student athletes, to submit more medical information to establish their eligibility-- but each student would be treated the same, and would have the opportunity to either comply with the disclosure of the medical information, or choose not to compete.

There would have to be disclosure of gender at birth, whether or not the student was being treated for a gender identity disorder, and all medications taken within the past year, in order to establish eligibility to compete. Students already have to have a physical to establish that they are healthy enough to participate in sports, so adding this additional information would not be very onerous-- but it would be viewed as a foray into privacy by some, and would potentially require student athletes to submit to more intimate examination, and more blood tests, and whether all doctors would be "approved" to write the reports, or only certain designated docs.

I think personally that it's ridiculous that we even have to consider going this route to make "all" students disclose whether or not they are being treated for being transgender simply to make it appear "fair" to 1 or 2 students in a whole state, but the current liberal progressive agenda continuously redefining what are "rights" and what are "protected classes" leaves no other really good options.

I think it's wrong to establish policies for the 99.999% compelling them to submit to additional examination and disclose information to somehow "protect" the rights of an infinitesimal number of trans athletes in high school sports. (I think that some call that "claim rights" versus "liberty rights".) But if we don't make it apply to "every" athlete, then there will be lawsuits and cries of discrimination by those who are asked or selected to provide more information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_rights_and_liberty_rights

Here is the NCAA policy.

https://www.transathlete.com/policies-college

I kind of think finding the thought of a 260 pound MTF trans kid wrestling females "disturbing" has more to do typically with fear of the penis or the view that the penis is dangerous. Because let's be real - the only girls such a person would be wrestling would be girls who weigh 260 or so. And there ain't that many 260 pound female wrestlers.

 

[gitana1]

Because if she had gotten seriously hurt or bullied or whatever while wrestling in the boys division. Then thats when her parents would have sued while showing all the younger feminine looking pics of her on the
News or to the jury with the hopes of collecting a big lawsuit of why the school shouldn't have agreed to allow her to wrestle in the boys division.

Jmo.

So I definitely would be wary of future possible lawsuits as well and denied his/her petition to wrestle with the boys.

Plus I would have told them that he can't take drugs of that nature while wrestling in the girls division.

So maybe someone can start a Transgender division in the community.

Jmo. Because we need to protect everyone.

Nope.That would never happen. I'm sorry but that is totally illogical. Parents vested enough in the theory that their child is trans, should receive hormones and deserves to be treated as the gender he identifies with are not going to be arguing that he got "hurt" while wrestling with boys after insisting he wrestle with boys. And they surely wouldn't be using any "feminine" pictures of their kid to make a point about how he was hurt. That's not one bit logical. Sorry.

As to bullying, if you think there needs to be a special circumstance for trans kids to be bullied in school, you should probably read a bit more about trans kids and what they go through, with respect.

 

[gitana1]

Perofrmance wise,what difference would it make if somebody is trans or faking? If they are taking testosterone, it's likely enhancing their performance. Do you think MB would be winning all these matches if he wasn't taking testosterone? And how do you think this situation helps with acceptance of transgender issues?

If this kid was not winning before and is suddenly winning actual matches with live people he's wrestling with, I will never believe it's due to suddenly superior training. Clearly, if that's the case (as opposed to wins due to default), then the level of T he's taking is the reason he's winning. And that's a conundrum. I say let him wrestle the boys. The kid's body is still totally feminine and he has apparently gone through female puberty so T is never going to give him an advantage over naturally occurring testosterone in boys who went through male puberty.

As to how any of that affects the acceptance of transgender issues, I think that's a red herring argument. People are mostly i two camps - can never fully accept it or can accept it. I think it depends on various factors that don't include their ability to take T while playing high school sports.

 

[gitana1]

I just wanted to comment again that I don't believe transgender issues are civil rights or anti-discrimination issues at all. I think they are situations under which accommodations for disorders/ disabilities are necessary, and properly dealt with under those laws (such as IDEA and ADA). I think there are a lot of people who agree with that view.

It is an interesting distinction, IMO, that will eventually have to be addressed at the level of the SCOTUS.

I do understand what you're saying. If it is a medical or special needs issue than that's what it is. But you have to know that both IDEA and the ADA are anti-discrimination laws. They specifically have to do with discrimination. So no matter which way you get there, it;s about discrimination.

 

[gitana1]

I don't have a problem with mixed genders competing in timed sports, or non-contact sports (such as swimming, track and field, or tennis).

It's contact sports where I have issues with mixed genders, especially at the K-12 level. That seems to be a common concern for a lot of parents. And it doesn't get more bodily intimate or "contact" than wrestling!

What about lesbians wrestling other girls or gay kids wrestling boys? I think we are influenced in this country by a Puritan ethos that distorts things into "pure" or "polluted" based on outdated attitudes about sex and the body. But that's just me. Everyone has different feelings and I do respect that. The fact that we can discuss these issues is wonderful.

 

[Elley Mae]

Waiting for the olympics, should be interesting. The situation at hand is not fair in my opinion and i don't care about people that have identity issues but i think there should be rules in place to keep this from happening. Or let all the other participants take what ever drugs they want to win.

 

[K_Z]

I kind of think finding the thought of a 260 pound MTF trans kid wrestling females "disturbing" has more to do typically with fear of the penis or the view that the penis is dangerous. Because let's be real - the only girls such a person would be wrestling would be girls who weigh 260 or so. And there ain't that many 260 pound female wrestlers.

No, it's not "fear of the penis" as much as it is rejection and discomfort with what appears to be using play at coercive sexual conquest/ sex assault training as a form of "sport" or "entertainment". It's like a weird or sick parody of legitimate self defense training, and not at all the same thing as, for example, martial arts training. It's a very mixed message for boys to be put in a position of physically pinning and "vanquishing" a female competitor in front of an arena of spectators cheering. It looks too much like sexual assault play, IMO. As I said, mixed gender sports are fine with me in timed sports, or non-contact sports. Mixed gender contact sports like wrestling is creepy and disturbing to me, especially among minors. Apparently it isn't to others, so live and let live, but it's not something I could allow my kids to do, boy or girl.

 

[K_Z]

Ugh. Most intersex persons regret the surgeries performed on them as
children to force their bodies to conform to a biological sex binary. To say that people born different have a moral and ethical "imperative" to transition is, with respect, horrifying to me. Just as you described trans persons undergoing debilitating sex change operations that can have lifelong complications, so too is it for intersex persons.

Unless they have a specific problem like inability to urinate, or unless they have the desire to pick a gender once they're adults, their bodies are fine and should be left alone. They are perfect. Just different. And that's not a sin.

I don't want to get too far off topic, but wanted to respond to this. Intersex individuals are in a completely different "category" than transgender individuals,and should not be lumped in together with those who have gender identity disorders.

I know it is tempting to put intersex individuals in the same category as transgenders, but they are not, and are not necessarily even appropriately categorized as LGBT until and unless they themselves identify as gay or bi when they are adults.

Intersex individuals are born with major birth defects of the the chromosomes, genitourinary, and reproductive systems. It is not a psychological condition like transgenderism-- these unfortunate infants are born with varying expression and severity of chromosomal and anatomic defects, which is often devastating information for their parents.

The most basic question any new parent asks is "is it a boy or girl?" When that can't be answered immediately, it is profoundly disturbing to the parents, in a very different way than other major birth defects. Depending on their culture and ethnicity, there can profound embarassment and shame initially, and an inability for some to explain the defect to their friends and family. These children and families should not be "shamed" into publicly raising their child as a "third gender", nor should legitimate medical and surgical care be with held from the child because progressive activists "demand" that no tissue be altered till the child is an adult. That is extremely cruel, and unethical,IMO. These kids are not props or "social justice accessories". They deserve the very basic "right" of being "assigned" a gender at birth-- even if that gender turns out to be "wrong" for the child later on as they grow. These kids DESERVE to have corrective genital surgery as soon as practical to establish a gender, so that they can live as NORMAL a life as possible, and not be a continuing source of curiosity during diaper changes and potty training at daycare, and in gym class, sleepovers, and locker rooms later on.

Med professionals will do everything possible to determine "which" gender is the most appropriate when making decisions with parents. They may choose "wrong" and that's a risk that has to be accepted as a consequence of the birth defect. And one that can be dealt with later on.

I am aware that there are some intersex activists that are promoting "remove no tissue" approach to care for these kids. I'm aware that there are some "angry" intersex activists who are very vocal. But they don't represent the entire spectrum of intersex individuals-- most of whom simply want to live their lives quietly and with privacy for their condition. Most intersex individuals are not at all interested in being props for a transgender social agenda-- intersex individuals have no control over their birth defect.

Transgenderism, on the other hand, is a psychological condition that has no objective diagnostic test other than behavior and self reporting. It is the only major psychological condition for which we currently advocate a collection of radical and permanent surgical and pharmacological therapies that have no proven benefit. In fact, several recent studies show that the rate of suicide among transgenders who have SRS is actually higher than those who do not-- particularly if the person does not continue lifelong psychiatric/ psychological care.

This is why it is so difficult for us to come to agreement with how we should accommodate transgender individuals in society. Despite all of what science and medicine has done to try to objectively demonstrate that there is something organically "different" about transgenders, there exists no provable, reproducible scientific evidence that they are different, beyond the psychological aspects of their disorder.

There is one group of the opinion that simply says we "must" accept that transgenderism exists as a human variant, and because it is a variant, transgenders deserve special rights and protections, just because they say they "feel" transgendered.

Many others feel that while transgender people do in fact "feel" like the other gender, that this is not enough to consider them a "protected class" and deserving of "rights" that others don't have, or that others must give up rights so the transgenders "feel" more respected or protected.

It's my opinion that transgendered individuals have a serious and pervasive psychological condition, for which we have no real therapy to "fix" them. Gender identity disorders and gender dysphoria is a mental illness, not a physical condition (until we do surgery on them!). That's why GID/ GD is in the DSM in the first place.

We know that the best outcomes for these patients is substantial engagement in appropriate psychiatric/ mental health counseling for their entire lives-- it is the ONLY intervention that has been proven to improve their health, decrease morbidity and mortality, and works to prevent suicide.

But for the last 30 years or so, hormone therapy and SRS has gained in popularity and social promotion, even though there is not scientific, reproducible evidence that these cosmetic changes improve overall morbidity and mortality in that group. (I'll be happy to provide the scholarly studies if needed to support this.) But it's all we have, and since life long mental health care is very costly and "unsexy"-- it's far easier to simply promote the idea that hormones and cosmetic surgery will "fix" the condition, and lobby to have that covered by insurance, and promoted by organizations who have a vested interest in promoting these therapies. I think in the next 20-30 years we will see a marked pull back on the recommendations for adolescent hormone blockers, and an overall decrease in the number of SRS, as more studies are done to evaluate their effectiveness on morbidity and mortality in this population. The evidence just isn't there to support it in the way that it is for other valid therapies for medical conditions.

 

[rob]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I feel that whatever the adult decides to do about their life is their choice. I do not feel that much should change in the life of a child or teen, until the child is of a age to make the choice and realize all that comes with that choice. I know this is not an easy life, whether they decide to live with the body they have or try to change it to the sex that they identify with. But it's never going to be the same as actually 'being' that other gender and that should be a part of the mental preparation for this type change. Bruce Jenner lived over 60 years before making changes and has said in articles that he doesn't plan to remove or physically change his/her private areas. At one time Johns Hopkins was taking a lead in this field and then did an about-face.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...atrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change
Also you can read about people who made physical changes and then regretted it. For me, it just seems too much for a child, and even though some parents seen to get on board and go for it all, it may turn out to be a mistake in the long term.
In this situation, all that is to say, what's your priority? Advancing in the transition or being a being a high school wrestler? It couldn't feel good when some competitors decide not to compete with this teen. If you're already in a stressful state, do you really want to add more to it?
I am not medical or legal, just an average human that has raised children.
For me personally, I believe I would just live in the body I was born in, in the way that felt the most natural to me. But, I've never been there, so...

JMO