TX: Transgender teen boy wins girls high school state wrestling title

[Treelights]

Testosterone is a steroid. Females have much lower levels compared to males. A biological female taking steroids would therefore have an advantage over other females not taking steroids.

This is my opinion, as well.

 

[Shin Masamura]

It's also worth noting that the term "elective" transgenderism is a signifier of a resistance to accepting the reality and current best practices of addressing transgenderism itself. For many, undergoing sex reassignment surgery is absolutely a medical necessity; there's nothing "elective" about it. If interested, here is a link to the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, with their position statement regarding the medical necessity of sex reassignment surgery, as well as cited research studies, journals and commercial insurance medical necessity criteria. http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1352&pk_association_webpage=3947 The fact that many commercial insurance companies, as well as the government, cover the treatment and surgeries associated with transgenderism is a huge signal that evidence based best practices and clinical guidelines have shown that these treatments and surgeries are necessary and beneficial for whom they are proposed.

Very enlightening, its sad that the suicide rate is still the same with or without surgery. I have a few transgendered friends and we talk about a number of these topics, their take on the wrestling thing was funny.

 

[1&2&3]

I would not want my teen daughter competing with a transgender girl!

She (he) would be much stronger than the other girls he is competing with.

Another side of this discussion is the uncomfortable position any school age girl will face in a locker room.

Just because a child decides they were born in the wrong body, does not mean an immediate acceptance by their peers. In fact, this could be the most difficult part of their life if transitioning at a young age. IMO.

 

[K_Z]

Very enlightening, its sad that the suicide rate is still the same with or without surgery. I have a few transgendered friends and we talk about a number of these topics, their take on the wrestling thing was funny.

Shin Masamura, would you be willing to share the impressions of your transgender friends about the Mack Beggs wrestling situation? I'm interested to hear what they think.

 

[K_Z]

Isn't this post #1 with a new set of criteria or facts?

No, if you read the thought experiment carefully, it's the "opposite" of Mack Beggs' situation, with a transgender girl who is 6'2" and 260 lbs, and "recently" beginning the transition process. Exogenously administered testosterone isn't an issue--our fictional Ron/ Ronda is a genetic male with testicles.

So, should our fictitious test case Ronda be allowed to compete in wrestling with girls? Is there even a weight and height category for "Ronda" to compete in as a girl?

Do we only think Mack Beggs should be allowed to wrestle with girls (or boys) because he is barely over 100 lbs, and not an imposing male presence?

Just because a student "wants" something, doesn't mean they are entitled to it, even under Title IX. My female child might "want" the lead in the school play, but if it's a male lead, she's not going to get it just because she wants it, or thinks she can sing better than the boys.

If my child has severe disabilities and uses a motorized wheelchair, she isn't "entitled" to play softball or run track just because she wants to.

If I have a son that's blind, he isn't "entitled" to play goalie on the school hockey team just because he wants to.

In a better world, Mack and his parents would have been given better "informed consent about" Mack's limitations while undergoing testosterone therapy, and the school officials would have taken proper steps to inform them about his limitations.

As it is now, I think whatever TX regulations were written to allow testosterone administration never anticipated a female to male transitioning transgender teen who would be placed onto a girls wrestling team, and go on to win the state title under the effects of a PED.

I would bet that there is a big scramble in TX to re-write the policies on testosterone use and eligibility before next season. I think there will be lawsuits if they don't.

I really doubt that Mack Beggs will be allowed to wrestle next year as a female-- perhaps they will allow him to wrestle as a male, but I think they are going to have to address the PED issues in new rules. The only fair way to address that is to make testosterone use disqualifying for competition, IMO, to be consistent with other sporting associations. Similar to the issues the Olympic level authorities are also dealing with, related to transgender and intersex athletes.

 

[rob]

I would not want my teen daughter competing with a transgender girl!

She (he) would be much stronger than the other girls he is competing with.

Another side of this discussion is the uncomfortable position any school age girl will face in a locker room.

Just because a child decides they were born in the wrong body, does not mean an immediate acceptance by their peers. In fact, this could be the most difficult part of their life if transitioning at a young age. IMO.

I'm thinking like you. You want to be fair to this kid and also to the others. The drugs being taken makes this person stronger than the others. Just like if it was a boy taking steroids for a medical condition and then wrestling with other boys.
But you don't want your kid up against one that has a physical advantage based on drugs that they take.
I don't know the answer to this one, but I do know what I would think if it was my child involved.
Just MO

 

[rob]

Agree with post #2 - compete at this time as male.

I agree.
But,unless there were other males as small as he, then it will be seen as unfair because he would be overwhelmed in the ring.
But if he is competing with girls his current size, but that don't have the benefit of the PED's then it's not fair to them.
This is not an easy path chosen. The percentages are very low. It should also be fair to the majority and not just this person.
How did he wish to compete? as a male or female?

 

[rob]

Isn't this post #1 with a new set of criteria or facts?

Would you let your teenage daughter in the ring with this person?

 

[Woodland]

Would you let your teenage daughter in the ring with this person?

If my daughter was a wrestler, and if there was a match to weight and skill and my daughter wanted to wrestle MB in a match or for practice - then yes.

It's not like MB would be looking to beat her up or use moves that would be disqualifying.

 

[Woodland]

No, if you read the thought experiment carefully, it's the "opposite" of Mack Beggs' situation, with a transgender girl who is 6'2" and 260 lbs, and "recently" beginning the transition process. Exogenously administered testosterone isn't an issue--our fictional Ron/ Ronda is a genetic male with testicles.

So, should our fictitious test case Ronda be allowed to compete in wrestling with girls? Is there even a weight and height category for "Ronda" to compete in as a girl?

Do we only think Mack Beggs should be allowed to wrestle with girls (or boys) because he is barely over 100 lbs, and not an imposing male presence?

Just because a student "wants" something, doesn't mean they are entitled to it, even under Title IX. My female child might "want" the lead in the school play, but if it's a male lead, she's not going to get it just because she wants it, or thinks she can sing better than the boys.

If my child has severe disabilities and uses a motorized wheelchair, she isn't "entitled" to play softball or run track just because she wants to.

If I have a son that's blind, he isn't "entitled" to play goalie on the school hockey team just because he wants to.

In a better world, Mack and his parents would have been given better "informed consent about" Mack's limitations while undergoing testosterone therapy, and the school officials would have taken proper steps to inform them about his limitations.

As it is now, I think whatever TX regulations were written to allow testosterone administration never anticipated a female to male transitioning transgender teen who would be placed onto a girls wrestling team, and go on to win the state title under the effects of a PED.

I would bet that there is a big scramble in TX to re-write the policies on testosterone use and eligibility before next season. I think there will be lawsuits if they don't.

I really doubt that Mack Beggs will be allowed to wrestle next year as a female-- perhaps they will allow him to wrestle as a male, but I think they are going to have to address the PED issues in new rules. The only fair way to address that is to make testosterone use disqualifying for competition, IMO, to be consistent with other sporting associations. Similar to the issues the Olympic level authorities are also dealing with, related to transgender and intersex athletes.

I'll stick with the real life case.

A thread on a better world might be interesting though.

 

[K_Z]

I agree.
But,unless there were other males as small as he, then it will be seen as unfair because he would be overwhelmed in the ring.
But if he is competing with girls his current size, but that don't have the benefit of the PED's then it's not fair to them.
This is not an easy path chosen. The percentages are very low. It should also be fair to the majority and not just this person.
How did he wish to compete? as a male or female?

Mack Beggs wants to compete as a male. TX rules mandate that athletes compete as the gender on their birth certificate. Texas also has some kind of rule that allows testosterone use as long as it's prescribed by a doctor. I don't know how old that rule is, when it was written, but I'm guessing it was written many, many years ago when it was not possible for adolescent girls to be prescribed testosterone for a female to male transition.

Mack's situation put the absurdity of the existing rules on display, and the authorities didn't presumably have time to properly investigate and debate whether or not the existing rules were appropriate for modern circumstances. That's my take on what happened. The authorities felt they "had" to allow the testosterone because it was MD prescribed, and then they "had" to place MB on the girls team.

No matter what they decide in TX, I think this is the kind of case that will be challenged in the courts, by either the transgender athletes, or the normal athletes disadvantaged by the PED. Under Title IX, as well as PED use in high school sports.

This is not a "civil rights" issue at all, IMO, though progressive activists wish to present it as such. It's an issue of PEDs. Remove the issue of the testosterone shots, and it doesn't really matter whether MB competes as a boy or as a girl-- the playing field is level again, and Title IX is complied with. It's the testosterone that should render a student ineligible, not the transgender issue.

Having said that, in my fictitious example above, I still feel very uncomfortable with the idea of Ronda, the 6'2" biological male, being "allowed" to wrestle females in a high school sports environment. It's an unfair advantage that has potential to be a real safety issue, IMO, as well as discouraging females from participating in sports-- Title IX issues. That kind of issue must be explored, debated, and dealt with in new regulations, as well.

 

[jjenny]

I'll stick with the real life case.

A thread on a better world might be interesting though.

There is nothing unreal about the hypothetical scenario proposed by KZ. MB is arguing that he should be allowed to wrestle with males because he is a transgender male. So his argument is that an athlete should be allowed to compete with the gender he identifies with. If that becomes a rule, then transgender female, who was born a biological male, should be allowed to compete with biological females. This is a very real scenario. There are males who identify as females who would potentially want to compete against biological females. How is that fair to the biological females? In virtually any sport, biological males do better than biological females due to obvious differences in body mass and strength (and a lot of this is due to the testosterone).

 

[jjenny]

If my daughter was a wrestler, and if there was a match to weight and skill and my daughter wanted to wrestle MB in a match or for practice - then yes.

It's not like MB would be looking to beat her up or use moves that would be disqualifying.

Your daughter doesn't take testosterone, I presume. Do you really think she'd have a chance?

 

[K_Z]

MB's record this season was 57/0.

Think about that in the context of 2 years of testosterone therapy, and the decision that he had to wrestle as a female.

Did any of the other females in the 110# weight class have any real chance at all of beating MB? I don't think so.

 

[gitana1]

You gotta let the kid play with someone. I think Texas needs to make a choice. Testosterone surely enhances performance. But if they have the kid play with the boys then yeah, there could be the converse where a trans teen girl who went through puberty or part of it and developed the secondary sex characteristics of a male, is wrestling females. And that would create somewhat of an unfair advantage when it comes to muscle mass.

I don't buy the "safety" argument- that having kids of different biological sexes compete against one another is dangerous, because kids of different sizes already compete in sports against one another and in something like wrestling, they have weight classes. They'll be fine.

But the bottom line is that you can't exclude kids from playing sports at all, regardless of what they're taking, unless they're sick and can't play.


What about intersex kids? What about kids taking T for a different reason? Are we just excluding trans kids?


I do have to ask why a kid was taking testosterone at age 14? Why not just stay on puberty blockers until much older and then take T at age 18?


I have some serious misgivings about kids being given medications with irreversible effects to change their appearance. It's one thing to prevent the onset of puberty with its irreversible physical changes. But to give a kid medications that change him or her forever when still young, I have a lot of concerns about that. To me, that's where the real debate should be. Not whether a kid should play with one sex or the other.


I have a couple trans friends and many gay and lesbian family and friends. I've researched quite a bit. Being trans is about identifying with a certain gender. Gender is a social construct and sex is biological. Usually they match. They sometimes don't. But if gender is about what's in your mind, why do trans bodies need to be "fixed" to conform with biology? I mean look, I know that it's got to be horrible for some to look like a man in a dress when they feel like a woman. But maybe we need to change the narrative to being okay with super masculine women and super feminine men or understanding that some women have penises and some men have vaginas and that's all okay. Because there are some things about the medical treatment of a young person to cause their body to be "fixed" so they fit a norm - gender matching sex- that makes me concerned.


Especially when I note that butch lesbians are becoming less common. Now I see in the younger generation the people who used to be deemed
butch lesbians are deciding that they're actually trans. And when you have the choice of being a masculine female, which is pretty low on the totem pole, or being a man with all the privilege that brings, the choice for some can be easy.


(Another thing that I've noticed is there are several videos of young butch women and some gay men who went through the process of transitioning with hormones and now regret it saying they are actually just butch females or super effeminate gay men but in the case of the women, now they have a low, man's voice for life and wish they didn't).


It's also sometimes an easier choice I think, for some parents from certain cultures to say, "My kids not gay. He's a she. It's a medical problem that we are going to fix", because they would rather have a daughter than a super effeminate, gay son.


But I wonder why we can't let it be an adult that makes that choice about their own bodies when it comes to irreversible effects and not impose that choice on a child in an area of medicine that is rapidly changing and not that stable.


I can't speak for anyone's truth. I do understand people can and are born trans. Like most things, nothing is that black and white. There are spectrums of gender, biological sex and sexuality. But I think that the issue of the medical "fixing" of the young bodies of non-conforming kids is a much more important issue to debate than whether they can play a game, especially in an era when people who merely express concerns about protocols when it comes to the medical treatment of trans kids are seen as traitors to the LGBTQ community or bigots.


The sports issue is a red herring to me in light of something much more serious that is happening.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9L2jyEDwpEw

 

[gitana1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3-r7ttcw6c

 

[gitana1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UAYy0t030QM

 

[gitana1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4IR2dGhiXM

 

[gitana1]

Should Mack have been allowed to compete as a female, while taking testosterone? Depends on what the rules state and safety of other athletes

Should Mack, a biological female transitioning to male, have been allowed to wrestle and compete as a male? Depends on rules

Or do you think the UIF made the correct decision, and required a female to male trangender athlete taking testosterone to compete as a female? It should have been let her compete with men or not at all. Not let an advantaged athlete hurt and create liability for other females.

Should Mack have been declared ineligible to wrestle at all, as a male or female, because of taking exogenous testosterone? If the rules are if X athlete cant take steroids, then no .. if all in division can then sure.. but I think the underlying question is what these hormones do to an undeveloped child during this time. A pediatrician friend of mine thinks its madness and they should wait to transition for health reasons after 19

Is Mack's win "legitimate"? Is it fair? Um no on the fair part.. see brock lesnar UFC 2016

Should the rules be different at the high school state level, versus university, professional sport, and Olympic level? dont know the rules, sorry

I would say though, if one case choose their gender, how do you weed out the fakes that want to do girls basket ball as a male? Wouldn't any limits or discrimination marginalized their gender identity?

Can you honestly imagine any kid wanting to "fake" being trans so they can play with the opposite sex? It's remains a nightmare to be trans or gay for a teen. I can't imagine that's a legitimate risk.

 

[gitana1]

I understand your explanation, but I substantially disagree.

I understand that others believe that surgical and pharmacological intervention is somehow "imperative" for those who believe that they are in the wrong body. I just do not agree with that philosophy at all-- and my disagreement with that philosophy is not rooted in religion, FWIW.

My viewpoint is a conservative secular humanist-- very rare perspective, indeed! From my perspective, only those who are born with intersex conditions have a moral and ethical "imperative" to choose and transition to a specific gender. For those who have a normally formed and developed body, a switch to the opposite biological gender is "elective". I do understand that some imaging may be interpreted as to define these individuals as the "opposite" gender based on brain structure or functionality-- but I believe that the science in this area is definitely not established.

So, in a normally functioning biological "entity" (person), to radically and permanently change the external appearance, and permanently interfere with a substantial biological system such as the genitourinary system,using pharmacology and radical elective surgery, in the absence of disease or dysfunction, is "elective" in my view.

Again, intersex individuals are in a different category, IMO. They have a substantial birth deformity/ defect that must be addressed surgically, pharmacologically, and psychologically, so that they may function "normally". To not address their deformity/ defect is immoral and unethical, IMO.

Ugh. Most intersex persons regret the surgeries performed on them as
children to force their bodies to conform to a biological sex binary. To say that people born different have a moral and ethical "imperative" to transition is, with respect, horrifying to me. Just as you described trans persons undergoing debilitating sex change operations that can have lifelong complications, so too is it for intersex persons.

Unless they have a specific problem like inability to urinate, or unless they have the desire to pick a gender once they're adults, their bodies are fine and should be left alone. They are perfect. Just different. And that's not a sin.