TX - Two Mothers Who Killed Children Form Bond

[reb]

yeah but in his defense, i think he was just being 'tragically optimistic'.. maybe even a bit naive, in th sense that he wanted this big family (they both did, if you remember).. and he just kept hoping that his wife would get, and WAS getting better. he obviously just wanted a normal, happy family life (and who doesn't?), and this mental illness was beyond his comprehension. (and wouldn't it be for anyone?). after all he DID take her for treatment several times, including hospitalization. i'm sure he hoped that their "god" would heal her (as many religious people do).. and when "he" didn't, it was disappointing... but he kept hoping. sometimes you don't get what you want, no matter how hard you pray or how many people you have praying for you. BUT, it's not like he thought she might be healed by religious beliefs alone. she WAS on psychotic drugs several times-- but keep in mind that it is tempting to want your loved one OFF these drugs, as they usually deaden your personality and spirit, not to mention sap your energy and turn you into a zombie. he saw improvement and thought that she could go off the drugs, & she would keep improving... which is a very common thing that people hope for (usually right before something bad happens, due to the person going off their drugs).
i don't blame him at all in ths situation, he sounds like an awesome dad who worked hard and was loyal to his wife & family, always there for them and he loved them very much. also,, just look how he still unconditionally cared about her welfare- even after what she did. he certainly didn't abuse anyone, and the choice to have all those children was both of theirs. however, when the doc said NO MORE! after she should obvious signs of illness, he should have taken the initiative to use birth control &/or make sure his wife used it. frankly, many of these new fundamentalist religions are supporting this new idea people are having, which is "we want as many children as god wants us to have".. and that birth control is sin, etc. well, let's get real, people-- sometimes it's just not that smart.

anyway... i think it all boils down to a genetic glitch, faulty chromosomes, something chemical in her brain that was triggered postpartum depression. people tried to help, but there is no easy answer here. it's nobody's fault, and i truly believe that she takes some responsibility for what happened, and i'm sure rusty has been through enough hell with the guilt of it all. it's just a combination of tragic circumstances.

 

[Maybe So]

Andrea Yates belongs in a prison hospital.

She knew what she was doing was wrong...that makes her GUILTY of murder.

She dragged her kicking and screaming children into that bathroom and drowned them one by one....even drowning one in the tub where his younger sisters body was already bobbing in the water.

It was her repsonsibility to get treatment for herself and to think for herself and reject the ideas of her husband and religious leader.

All well and good to blame the husband...but it's just another double standard.... If a man goes nuts and kills his family do we blame his wife for not making sure he had better mental health care??

I don't believe in a million years she had any high thoughts that she was saving them from anything. No mother with a heart could listen to her children trying to live and yet kill another and another and another.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Andrea Yates belongs in a prison hospital.

She knew what she was doing was wrong...that makes her GUILTY of murder.

Actually, no. It doesn't make her guilty of "murder." She was found NOT guilty by reason of insanity. Its a whole different ballgame.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

 

[zadari]

:laugh:

Both of these women need to be shoved off a cliff

rofl..

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Once again, EXCELLENT post!!!!!!!!

 

[Maybe So]

Actually, no. It doesn't make her guilty of "murder." She was found NOT guilty by reason of insanity. Its a whole different ballgame.

I see her as a murderer.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I see her as a murderer.

Well she killed five kids, so that makes sense.

 

[fox1950]

They are both not guilty by reason of insanity. If any of you think that spending what will most likely be the rest of their lives in a state run mental hospital is a picnic, you've seriously got another thing coming. Most people have said they'd rather be on death row. BOTH of their husbands KNEW that they were loosing their minds and BOTH of their husbands left them alone with small children. If you read about Schlosser, you'll learn that more than a few times, he begged mental hospital staff to release her and PROMISED that with his help and the help of their extended family, he would MAKE SURE that she took her meds and attended her counselling. Even as his lips were moving, he knew that it was a lie because their church did not believe in any of it. He simply wanted her at home, mentally deranged or not. Yates wasn't much better. The only thing that prevented those children from being murdered much sooner than they were was his mother being there some of the time. Unless and until society stops BLAMING those who are mentally ill and starts accepting the fact that a great many people need psychiatric help for whatever reason and removes the stigma from them, more children will die needlessly.

Great post. The best I have seen in a long time.

 

[fox1950]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Another great post. Bravo! I think along with all the educational stuff that goes along with having a baby, there also should be classes on WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO A MOTHER if she suffers from post-partum depression. What goes around comes around. Don't think it can't happen to any of you after having a baby. I think both FAThers and mothers should be aware of what can happen to mother's minds after a baby is born so the father's are not just as responsible as these two fathers were for not helping, and seeking help for their wives.

 

[Texana]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Excellent post.

 

[KT Can]

Goodness, here we are again! I sit back and read the posts on this thread and it about makes me wanna cry! Anger, sadness, disbelief and hopelessness are just a few of the emotions I am feeling as I read the nasty, uneducated, stigma filled posts.

What if it was you or your sister or your wife or husband? What if this horrible, disabling, soul sucking illness attacked your brain? Don't assume it won't, don't ever assume you are safe from mental illness. We do not choose it, it chooses us and it slowly eats away at our souls until we don't even know who we are anymore.

Trust me, none of you are any safer from mental illness than either of these women. You can claim "I'd never hurt my children no matter what was wrong with me" all you like but I am here to tell you that you do not know that for a fact- you couldn't- you have not lived with a monster in your brain chipping away at your soul!!

People, Mental illness is real... "insanity" is real and it's not going away... it's getting worse and until people like you all can accept those of us who are honestly ill, it will continue to get worse. By the time your children are grown you'll have planted such negative things in their minds that even they would be afraid to reach out to you if they become ill because you have already told them your opinion of it.

"Push 'em off a cliff" doesn't encourage our younger, our future, generations to ask for help if they themselves should become ill ..which in turn will enable this nasty cycle to continue because without help, the illness will progess and people will continue killing their kids! This is your world too-how about instead of bitching about it and pretending to be above it, find ways to change it! DO SOMETHING- REACH OUT TO SOMEONE BEFORE THEY GO THIS FAR!

You'd better hope this doesn't happen to you- to your child, your spouse. Because it can...

Ditto, excellent post. It can happen to anyone, anyone.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Another great post. Bravo! I think along with all the educational stuff that goes along with having a baby, there also should be classes on WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO A MOTHER if she suffers from post-partum depression. What goes around comes around. Don't think it can't happen to any of you after having a baby. I think both FAThers and mothers should be aware of what can happen to mother's minds after a baby is born so the father's are not just as responsible as these two fathers were for not helping, and seeking help for their wives.

As with many things regarding my past (while actively mentally ill), I'm not proud of what I'm about to share but some things need to be said in order for things to change, patterns to be broken, to end mental illness as excuses for bad behavior...

After having my son and dealing with the rapid progression of my mental illnesses, I went off of the birth control pill because I thought that was what may have been causing whatever was wrong with me (had no diagnosis at this point, only knew something was very wrong with me) I ended up becoming pregnant again. After having lost enough control of myself, because my son hadn't slept for several nights (which in turn made me afraid he'd hurt himself so I too stayed awake), that I was able to push my son down while he stood in his crib.. I realized I had no right to bring anymore children into the world, I had no doubt that if I gave birth to this new child at that point of my illness, I could become a child abuser.

Pretty awful thing to admit about oneself... "I could end up harming my child(ren)." After much discussion with my husband and other loved ones and after much soul searching, I decided to end the pregnancy. I am not an advocate for abortion but to this day I know I made the right decision... for myself, for the child I had already given birth to and to my unborn child that could have been the straw that broke the camels back. One more child while being in the state I was in, could have been what made me cross the line.

Less than 3 weeks later, while in my early twenties and severly mentally ill, I made the decision to have my tubes tied. Although I adore my son and would have loved to be able to give him a sibling, I know I made the right decision for all involved, including any future potential children I could have given birth to.


As parents, ill or not, our #1 job is to ensure our childrens safety. I do not excuse any kind of criminal behavior much less the murder of ones own child. I believe the world isn't simply black and white and until society accepts mental illness as easily as they accept heart disease or cancer our ill will become iller (is that even a word?! :waitasec: ) and our innocent children will continue to to suffer. Somewhere, someone has to break the cycle.....

 

[KarlK]

...that clear cut....My Dad, who is a mental health professional who has been an expert witness many times in criminal cases involving sanity determinations, has said over and over again that very few people meet the legal definitions of insanity.

Very few indeed but some nonetheless and Yates is one of them. For a jury in conservative Texas to find someone not guilty of a heinous crime for reasons of insanity that person has to be seriously deranged. Yates has been psychologically unbalanced he whole life and unfortunately she married into a lifestyle that was sure to drive her over the edge. The last thing she needed was to be immersed into a religious context from which basic common sense was absent. It has long been demonstrated that pharmaceuticals work better than Bibles in the treatment of mental illness.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Very few indeed but some nonetheless and Yates is one of them. For a jury in conservative Texas to find someone not guilty of a heinous crime for reasons of insanity that person has to be seriously deranged. Yates has been psychologically unbalanced he whole life and unfortunately she married into a lifestyle that was sure to drive her over the edge. The last thing she needed was to be immersed into a religious context from which basic common sense was absent. It has long been demonstrated that pharmaceuticals work better than Bibles in the treatment of mental illness.

EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

...... "I could end up harming my child(ren)." After much discussion with my husband and other loved ones and after much soul searching, I decided to end the pregnancy. I am not an advocate for abortion but to this day I know I made the right decision... for myself, for the child I had already given birth to and to my unborn child that could have been the straw that broke the camels back. One more child while being in the state I was in, could have been what made me cross the line.

Less than 3 weeks later, while in my early twenties and severly mentally ill, I made the decision to have my tubes tied. Although I adore my son and would have loved to be able to give him a sibling, I know I made the right decision for all involved, including any future potential children I could have given birth to........

So what you are saying is, in the midths of being severely mentally ill, you where able to sanely reason with yourself that you may do harm to your children, (both born and unborn) so you made a decision to terminate a pregnancy (to protect it from yourself) and then another sane decision to sterilize yourself? You made these decisions while being severely mentally ill? Interesting. I realize all mental illness is not created equal, but one would think that if you, admitably being delusional, where able to make life altering decisions, you where not truly mentally ill. As Jenna and a few others point out a TRUE mental illness patient would not be able to make these types of decisions by reasons of insanity.

 

[OneLostGrl]

So what you are saying is, in the midths of being severely mentally ill, you where able to sanely reason with yourself that you may do harm to your children, (both born and unborn) so you made a decision to terminate a pregnancy (to protect it from yourself) and then another sane decision to sterilize yourself? You made these decisions while being severely mentally ill? Interesting. I realize all mental illness is not created equal, but one would think that if you, admitably being delusional, where able to make life altering decisions, you where not truly mentally ill. As Jenna and a few others point out a TRUE mental illness patient would not be able to make these types of decisions by reasons of insanity.

First of all, the term "Insanity" is not a medical term, only a legal one. Secondly, I stated that at the time I made those decisions I was severely mentally ill- not psychotic or "delusional". Delusional is the word you used, not me.

Absolutely, that's what I'm saying! Wouldn't one consider suicide or an attempt of, a life altering decision? Wouldn't one consider murder a life altering decision? Many make those decisions while in the throws of mental illness, do you feel those are the only decisions a mentally ill person can make?! We are real people attempting to live our lives and on good days can make decisions, we aren't stupid, only "crazy".

A "true" mentally ill person can and does live their lives and make many kinds of decisions. Jeanna has not said that mentally ill people cannot make choices, nor has she said one must be legally insane to be considered mentally ill.

My point in sharing so much of my own illness is to give an example of how, mentally ill or not, we choose our paths.. we make choices in life, but sometimes, rarely, a person can be so out of touch with reality, the choice is not theirs. Obviously, my own experience with mental illness never got to the point where I would harm my chid. I was able to stop myself.. not all of us (or our children) get so lucky! I feel Andrea and people like her are the minority. People that live their life and manage to get by, mental illness and all, without murdering a fellow human are the majority.
Obviously.

My opinion is that cases like Andrea Yates are very real, however, they are also very rare. But one doesn't have to be that out of touch to be diagnosed with a mental illness... one doesn't have to murder their children to have a "true" mental illness!

I don't bunch together "mental illness" and "insanity", nor do the professionals. You do not have to have one to have the other, you also don't have to have both. Millions of us (those who are mentally ill) live in society with millions of you (meaning people without mental illness, not you specifically) and we never hurt you. That does not disqualify us- we are still mentally ill. I appreciate the point you are attempting to make but your misconceptions written in your post are overshadowing it.