TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[Dotta]

I spoke to my husband about this. He was a HS Principal for 25 years, at 5A very large, but somewhat high crime, urban schools. (5A is the largest campus size in Texas) He said the Uvalde Consolidated ISD Police Chief was in way over his head and should have turned it over to the other agencies.

Campus police just do not engage with high risk situations on a frequent basis

They don't:
Serve warrants on dangerous criminals
Get involved with or negotiate domestic disturbances
Conduct routine traffic stops

All of these routine procedures put regular officers in higher risk situations, so that they are better able to handle a major incident.
Sure training for an active shooter is one thing, however dealing with dangerous unpredictable criminals on a daily basis also provides a needed experience because the LEO has more experience with dangerous situations.

So what exactly does this job entail?
Patrolling the campus?
But there was no officer there in the time of crisis.

And speaking of Principal.
As the head of school - this person is responsible for everything that happens there.
And speaks in the name of all teachers.

 

[Dotta]

"He possibly didn't have a Police radio with him".

Texas probing og Uvalde Schools Police Chief had a radio on him

Arredondo, a former 911 dispatcher who'd been elected to Uvalde's city council just days earlier, may have used that as an excuse for why he held his officers back despite the 911 calls from students.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ilovewings]

Essentially, that's what happened here. Not unlike a war where the General leads the troops into battle, the incident commander is the point person that calls the shots for LE. However, as a CNN analyst provided earlier and quoted below, the police force can reject or override the incident commander if they believe the commander is making the wrong call.



An unidentified police officer involved in the Robb School shooting provided that it was a near mutiny where they did talk about ignoring the Chief's orders before the BORTAC arrived and took charge except they were missing the plan -- their incident commander's only plan was his belief that he needed more equipment and officers to do a tactical breach:

According to Steven McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Arredondo believed that the shooter had barricaded himself in an empty classroom, and that no children were under an active threat.

[..]

But not all officers agreed with Arredondo's decision. One of the officers who was standing outside the school says that he and his colleagues discussed whether to go into the school anyway.


"There was almost a mutiny," the officer tells PEOPLE. "We were like, 'There's a f---ing gunman in the school, we hear gunshots, and we're just going to stand here with our thumbs up our asses?' We wanted to go in and save lives. It was the most frustrating situation of my entire career."

"We felt like cowards," the officer continues. "It felt cowardly to stand off and let this punk, this kid, this 18-year-old just go in and do whatever he wanted to do. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of cussing, a lot of people who were saying that we should just say f--- it and go in, but then what? We needed to have a plan, and the commander didn't have a plan."

'We Felt Like Cowards': A Police Officer Talks About the Decision to Delay Officer Response to Uvalde Shooting

A police officer at the scene tells PEOPLE about the decision to wait for an hour before charging the school

people.com

But the fact is they did not go in- and they still blame the commander for "not having a plan'.
They should carry this with them for the rest of their lives: <modsnip>

 

[Dotta]

"80 minutes of horror"

'We're in trouble.' 80 minutes of horror at Robb Elementary School

Two days before the end of the academic year the students of Robb Elementary School wore their Sunday best for a celebration. Within hours, they would cross paths with a high school dropout who one week earlier had legally purchased two AR-15 style rifles for his 18th birthday.

edition.cnn.com

 

[Elley Mae]

Identifying or "flagging" students is a huge problem. HUGE. I taught for over 25 years - having started a few years before Columbine.

In all those years I had students that "concerned" me greatly. Not a lot - in total maybe, over all those years only 7 or 8.

Yes, I would go to administration. Sometimes I would get shot down from the get-go. Given excuses of why he is "like he is" or they fall back on the conditions of his life outside of the school. But, even when the parent(s) came in (and I never had a serious concern about a student that had both parents in his life - think about that one). The parents for the most part will rail against this. They don't want their child labeled. The "he's not like this at home" reply is standard. And they will fight against any type of action to be taken (I think they are afraid of loosing custody).

Look at Sandy Hook - AL's mom was in complete denial. She even bought him the guns. Newtown turned on her and she was never recognized by that community as a victim - that's HOW BAD that community felt about her denial and lack of action and denial. Now, in Uvalde, this mom is trying to deflect and excuse and even explain her son and his behavior / actions. What about the one in Michigan - again, those parents bought him the gun, when called to the school over their concerns they refused to take him home. That one is so egregious that authorities have charged both parents!!!

I taught 5th grade for the majority of my career. I would get to know my kids - I would watch them. I would actually eat lunch with them in the cafeteria at least twice a week (which I have to insert here - this caused my fellow colleagues to "dislike" me - they valued their precious free time and could not for the life of them figure out why I would actually want to do that! I was ostracized in a few schools because of this - one principal told me I was not allowed to eat with my students - I kid you not).

I had one child that really really concerned me. To him - one day I would be his best friend and he would be great and the very next day - I was the antichrist. I was actually afraid of him. I had a few conferences with his father - and yes, this child had a father but his mother was not (and had not been) in the picture for a few years. At one point I asked my administrator (who was well aware of this child and my concerns) if I could ask dad, who was coming in for yet another conference, if there were any weapons in the home. My administrator didn't know and would get back with me. At the end of the day I was called in and told that, in no uncertain terms, could I ask about weapons in the home and that his came from the district offices. Needless to say I was livid but I had to abide by what I was told. It was after that - that I did something that would have cost me my job and possibly my teaching license - and I did this almost everyday. After I took the kids to lunch - I would go back to my room and search his backpack. (searching a child's backpack is NOT ALLOWED without permission - period - end of discussion - full stop). But I did it anyway as I was that afraid that I could be teaching in front of the class, look up and have a gun pointed at me! As I was in Florida, when Parkland happened I did the math and this child was of the same age and did some research to make sure it wasn't this child that I had.

I completely and totally agree there HAS TO BE MORE DONE to identify and flag these shooters - but until the "powers that be" start to recognize teachers as professionals with a voice in this - it isn't going to happen.

A lot of teachers don't even think about this - or care. There are signs - they way they answer questions, they way they interact with other children. body language, micro-facial expressions, - just watch them, talk to them, get to (or try to get to) know them, making personal connection with a child will bring out their personality and those "flags" will surface.

I don't have the answers - I don't know how we are ever going to get this under some type of control but something has to be done and listening to caring, responsible, watchful, and intelligent teachers has to be incorporated into the solution.

Thank you for this post. I never having been a teacher see the same as you do in kids.

Jmo

I stand by what I have said for years, Children are a product of their environment.

Jmo

 

[x_files]

Natalie Kitroeff
@Nataliekitro

I spent a few days in Uvalde. One thing that became clear: this is not Newtown or Parkland. Guns are part of the identity of this town. Almost everyone I talked to owned one, for hunting or protection. But even here, people are begging for change.

nytimes.com
Debate Over Guns Unfolds in Uvalde, a Rural Texas Town in Grief
Guns are a central part of life in Uvalde, yet the deaths of 19 children and two teachers have opened rifts.

11:04 AM · May 28, 2022

Guns are a big part of the culture in Texas, and for the most part, how many people owning guns are relatively non-violent.
But I won't even dare go into gun suicide because of another can of worms. But I'm seeing my fellow friends in Texas as responsible gun owners that want better laws.

 

[Dawookie]

Essentially, that's what happened here. Not unlike a war where the General leads the troops into battle, the incident commander is the point person that calls the shots for LE. However, as a CNN analyst provided earlier and quoted below, the police force can reject or override the incident commander if they believe the commander is making the wrong call.



An unidentified police officer involved in the Robb School shooting provided that it was a near mutiny where they did talk about ignoring the Chief's orders before the BORTAC arrived and took charge except they were missing the plan -- their incident commander's only plan was his belief that he needed more equipment and officers to do a tactical breach:

According to Steven McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Arredondo believed that the shooter had barricaded himself in an empty classroom, and that no children were under an active threat.

[..]

But not all officers agreed with Arredondo's decision. One of the officers who was standing outside the school says that he and his colleagues discussed whether to go into the school anyway.


"There was almost a mutiny," the officer tells PEOPLE. "We were like, 'There's a f---ing gunman in the school, we hear gunshots, and we're just going to stand here with our thumbs up our asses?' We wanted to go in and save lives. It was the most frustrating situation of my entire career."

"We felt like cowards," the officer continues. "It felt cowardly to stand off and let this punk, this kid, this 18-year-old just go in and do whatever he wanted to do. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of cussing, a lot of people who were saying that we should just say f--- it and go in, but then what? We needed to have a plan, and the commander didn't have a plan."

'We Felt Like Cowards': A Police Officer Talks About the Decision to Delay Officer Response to Uvalde Shooting

A police officer at the scene tells PEOPLE about the decision to wait for an hour before charging the school

people.com

That's exactly what they should have done long before. It's obvious the school chief forgot the training he got in December regarding an active shooter and it's led to the officers inside the school being blasted as cowards for not doing anything sooner.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

CNN goes inside trauma unit that treated Uvalde shooting victims

CNN gets access inside the trauma unit at San Antonio's University Health Hospital, where doctors treated some of the victims from the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School that left

www.khq.com

'I forgive him': Uvalde victim's uncle turns to his faith in wake of deadly school shooting

Adrian Alonzo says he got used to Uvalde schools being in lockdown, usually because of issues related to immigration, in this small town close to the southern border. But he realized that Tuesday's alert was different when he got a notice that school buses would not be running that day.

www.cnn.com

Biden, first lady visiting grieving families in Uvalde

The visit to Uvalde is President Biden’s second trip in less than two weeks to comfort a community in mourning after a mass shooting.

www.fox5dc.com

Uvalde school shooter fired at least 6 times after police arrived, was in classroom for 77 minutes

Despite spurts of gunfire - and a 911 call from inside one of the classrooms alerting a dispatcher that eight or nine people remained alive -- officers did not enter the classroom and kill the gunman until 12:50 p.m., new details show.

abc11.com

 

[Dawookie]

"He possibly didn't have a Police radio with him".

Texas probing og Uvalde Schools Police Chief had a radio on him

Arredondo, a former 911 dispatcher who'd been elected to Uvalde's city council just days earlier, may have used that as an excuse for why he held his officers back despite the 911 calls from students.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If this guy didn't have his radio on him, that makes it even worse and would explain a lot.



A cop on the scene of the shooting has said that Arredondo is wrongly being made a scapegoat.

'It's a lie that Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,' said the anonymous officer. 'It's a lie. And we're all getting death threats. It's a f*****g nightmare

This makes no sense, you have multiple other sources saying he's the one that wouldn't let them go in.

 

[Elley Mae]

If this guy didn't have his radio on him, that makes it even worse and would explain a lot.



A cop on the scene of the shooting has said that Arredondo is wrongly being made a scapegoat.

'It's a lie that Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,' said the anonymous officer. 'It's a lie. And we're all getting death threats. It's a *advertiser censored****g nightmare

This makes no sense, you have multiple other sources saying he's the one that wouldn't let them go in.

Police inaction moves to center of Uvalde shooting probe

The actions of a school district police chief and other law enforcement officers are at the center of the investigation into this week’s shocking school shooting in Uvalde, Texas.

apnews.com

The Uvalde School District police chief, Pete Arredondo, decided that the group of officers should wait to confront the assailant, on the belief that the active attack was over, according to Steven McCraw, the head of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

The crisis ended shortly after officers used keys from a janitor to open the classroom door, entered the room and shot and killed Ramos.

Arredondo could not be reached for comment Friday, and Uvalde officers were stationed outside his home, but they would not say why.

 

[Friday Fan]

So what exactly does this job entail?
Patrolling the campus?
But there was no officer there in the time of crisis.

Patrolling the campus.
The majority of their work is about patrolling students and very few elementary students violate laws.


Common things they deal with on a statistical basis:

Settle disputes and fights between students
Traffic violations in the parking lot and school property
Search lockers and students
Deal with parents who get out of hand
Drugs on campus
Weapons on campus
Assist local police as needed
Remove people who are not supposed to be on campus


The majority of these violations are committed by older students

 

[x_files]

If this guy didn't have his radio on him, that makes it even worse and would explain a lot.



A cop on the scene of the shooting has said that Arredondo is wrongly being made a scapegoat.

'It's a lie that Arrendondo told everyone to stand down,' said the anonymous officer. 'It's a lie. And we're all getting death threats. It's a *advertiser censored****g nightmare

This makes no sense, you have multiple other sources saying he's the one that wouldn't let them go in.

These are questions I hope the FBI will have soon:
Why didn't he have/own a police radio? or did he just not have it with him? If not why not? Where was he and where was this radio?
and who gave the order to stand down then?
Because if he is being scapegoated I want to know the truth. I do not want to blame someone innocent.

 

[TGIRecovered]

I spoke to my husband about this. He was a HS Principal for 25 years, at 5A very large, but somewhat high crime, urban schools. (5A is the largest campus size in Texas) He said the Uvalde Consolidated ISD Police Chief was in way over his head and should have turned it over to the other agencies.

Campus police just do not engage with high risk situations on a frequent basis

They don't:
Serve warrants on dangerous criminals
Get involved with or negotiate domestic disturbances
Conduct routine traffic stops

All of these routine procedures put regular officers in higher risk situations, so that they are better able to handle a major incident.
Sure training for an active shooter is one thing, however dealing with dangerous unpredictable criminals on a daily basis also provides a needed experience because the LEO has more experience with dangerous situations.

Exactly. The campus police chief didn’t need more training. He had expert trainingband I know how intense that training is. I have a LEO family member who provides this training to police departments, school districts and businesses all over Texas on a regular basis. Everyone who attended that training and participated knew what to do. Apparently the chief either didn’t pay attention or was unable to apply what he learned to a real life situation.
Perhaps this police chief has an ego that won’t allow him to accept good advice or correction. We know that other officers and parents on scene all had better judgment than he did. 911 calls were coming from inside the room with the shooter. The chief had to know that they were children inside who were bleeding to death and others who were hiding to stay alive. Time is of the essence and the chief ignored every opportunity to make an informed decision. He chose to ignore this critical information to reverse his disasterous decision.
This is not a failure of training. This is a failure of the man in the top position to pick up what the tactical experts put down just two months earlier.

It appears from the diagram shown at the press conference that the two classrooms that the shooter was in are connected. Two doors to the hall and one door between the classrooms. I’m assuming at least two windows, one for each classroom. Police had multiple points of entry, not to mention the fact that the ceilings are probably connected from classroom to classroom by ductwork.
MOO Distract the gunman toward the hallway doors while others insert flash bangs through windows and storm the room. MOO

 

[Dawookie]

These are questions I hope the FBI will have soon:
Why didn't he have/own a police radio? or did he just not have it with him? If not why not? Where was he and where was this radio?
and who gave the order to stand down then?
Because if he is being scapegoated I want to know the truth. I do not want to blame someone innocent.

I think he just didn't have it with him for whatever reason which is a huge mistake.

There's pretty much no doubt he gave the orders as he was the on scene commander. Him not having his radio would explain a lot about why he perceived the situation as he did if he wasn't getting info from 911. And that leads to more questions, the first one being would he be the only one to recieve that information and if so why only one person would be getting that info in a situation like this

 

[Dawookie]

Police inaction moves to center of Uvalde shooting probe

The actions of a school district police chief and other law enforcement officers are at the center of the investigation into this week’s shocking school shooting in Uvalde, Texas.

apnews.com

The Uvalde School District police chief, Pete Arredondo, decided that the group of officers should wait to confront the assailant, on the belief that the active attack was over, according to Steven McCraw, the head of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

The crisis ended shortly after officers used keys from a janitor to open the classroom door, entered the room and shot and killed Ramos.

Arredondo could not be reached for comment Friday, and Uvalde officers were stationed outside his home, but they would not say why.

I think the issue of whether or not he had his radio plays a huge factor in his decision making and thought process that it was no longer an active shooter situation.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Even with the training could there have been an underlying belief that “it would not happen here”?

I would think the Santa Fe school shooting (also a small town in Texas) in 2018 would have been a reminder.
JMO

 

[Friday Fan]

Exactly. The campus police chief didn’t need more training. He had expert trainingband I know how intense that training is. I have a LEO family member who provides this training to police departments, school districts and businesses all over Texas on a regular basis. Everyone who attended that training and participated knew what to do. Apparently the chief either didn’t pay attention or was unable to apply what he learned to a real life situation.
Perhaps this police chief has an ego that won’t allow him to accept good advice or correction. We know that other officers and parents on scene all had better judgment than he did. 911 calls were coming from inside the room with the shooter. The chief had to know that they were children inside who were bleeding to death and others who were hiding to stay alive. Time is of the essence and the chief ignored every opportunity to make an informed decision. He chose to ignore this critical information to reverse his disasterous decision.
This is not a failure of training. This is a failure of the man in the top position to pick up what the tactical experts put down just two months earlier.

It appears from the diagram shown at the press conference that the two classrooms that the shooter was in are connected. Two doors to the hall and one door between the classrooms. I’m assuming at least two windows, one for each classroom. Police had multiple points of entry, not to mention the fact that the ceilings are probably connected from classroom to classroom by ductwork.
MOO Distract the gunman toward the hallway doors while others insert flash bangs through windows and storm the room. MOO

Emotions and ego..
"It can't happen here"
Lack of similar real life experience

It's one thing to have high school/middle students who are possibly breaking a law, it's another to have another Adam Lanza on an elementary campus...

I believe this is only the second mass shooting at an elementary school in the US
It's alot of "it can't happen here" mixed with emotions

 

[Friday Fan]

"He possibly didn't have a Police radio with him".

Texas probing og Uvalde Schools Police Chief had a radio on him

Arredondo, a former 911 dispatcher who'd been elected to Uvalde's city council just days earlier, may have used that as an excuse for why he held his officers back despite the 911 calls from students.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Daily Mail is not the most reliable...
The stories keep changing

I will wait for confirmation

 

[Wise Old Owl]

What has become glaringly apparent is this plague of errors that caused this horrific tragedy is -

The HUMAN FACTOR is what failed......................

It was a teacher that propped that door open (I feel for that woman and I pray for her every night) - but it is what it is and she should loose her job.

The SRO that drove right by the shooter while he was still in the parking lot.

The school police chief that did or did not have his radio - he was still the incident commander and told them to stand down.

You can have all the policies, procedures, protocols, laws, barriers, trainings and plans on paper BUT it still comes down to THE PEOPLE on scene - involved in the incident that can make or break a successful outcome.

Schools - especially elementary where the students are still just babies - ARE NOT militarized zones. The people that are trained to work there do not study military tactics or how to survive a terrorist attack (and yes, these shooters are terrorists) so there will always be the element of "incompetence" with that work force. Its not their fault - that's not what they signed up for.

We, as a people, have to do better. For our children - for our future.

 

[x_files]

Exactly. The campus police chief didn’t need more training. He had expert trainingband I know how intense that training is. I have a LEO family member who provides this training to police departments, school districts and businesses all over Texas on a regular basis. Everyone who attended that training and participated knew what to do. Apparently the chief either didn’t pay attention or was unable to apply what he learned to a real life situation.
Perhaps this police chief has an ego that won’t allow him to accept good advice or correction. We know that other officers and parents on scene all had better judgment than he did. 911 calls were coming from inside the room with the shooter. The chief had to know that they were children inside who were bleeding to death and others who were hiding to stay alive. Time is of the essence and the chief ignored every opportunity to make an informed decision. He chose to ignore this critical information to reverse his disasterous decision.
This is not a failure of training. This is a failure of the man in the top position to pick up what the tactical experts put down just two months earlier.

It appears from the diagram shown at the press conference that the two classrooms that the shooter was in are connected. Two doors to the hall and one door between the classrooms. I’m assuming at least two windows, one for each classroom. Police had multiple points of entry, not to mention the fact that the ceilings are probably connected from classroom to classroom by ductwork.
MOO Distract the gunman toward the hallway doors while others insert flash bangs through windows and storm the room. MOO

Question here what about one sharpshooter taking a shot at the gunman from a window? Risky yes, but possible?!