TX - Woman flushes newborn baby down toilet in Whataburger bathroom - Dec. 19, 2024

[SolVic]

…What?

 

[ChatteringBirds]

The compassion for the birth-mother on this thread is nice to see. I don't always feel that in abandoned newborn cases, but actually we really should think these cases through.

I think the manager of the restaurant did not do anything wrong. He was probably trying to respect her privacy and thought she had a bad stomach issue or something.

Babies at 28 weeks are real babies, though. The whole story needs to be told and understood, but I feel foremost for that baby who really needed to either be born at a hospital or at least left in a place she'd be quickly found.

 

[Ladyotm]

I feel for any pregnant woman in Texas right now. We don't know her circumstances at all. But we do know it's not a given that she could have gone to a hospital and gotten help.

Right! I'm just getting started reading the thread, but wondering, what if she had went to a hospital and care wasn't provided?

 

[AcerPacer]

Right! I'm just getting started reading the thread, but wondering, what if she had went to a hospital and care wasn't provided?

I'm from the UK, please could you explain why care may not have been provided (Particularly in Texas) Thanks

 

[imstilla.grandma]

A quarter century ago, prompted by a spate of abandoned babies in Houston, this state became the first in the country to pass a safe haven law allowing parents to relinquish newborns at designated places — without questions or risk of prosecution. Yet “Baby Moses” surrenders remain rare in Texas, and another series of abandoned infants since spring in the Houston area has prompted much soul-searching.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/12/28/abandoned-baby-texas-abortion-ban/

https://www.dfps.texas.gov/Child_Protection/Child_Safety/documents/Baby_Moses_Flyer-ENG.pdf

Number of babies abandoned in Texas twice what it was 10 years ago

Only one parent has been charged this year

www.independent.co.uk

Alarming rise in newborn babies abandoned in Texas raises concern

The shocking rise in the number of newborn babies found abandoned in Texas has unnerved communities, raising urgent questions about women's reproductive health.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[red carpet fiber]

The compassion for the birth-mother on this thread is nice to see. I don't always feel that in abandoned newborn cases, but actually we really should think these cases through.

Well I think it's rather dishonest to characterize this incident as "abandonment". She jammed her baby down the toilet. First responders had to tug the baby out of the U-trap! This is what that looks like. (source Google images)

<modsnip - referenced post was removed> There are safe havens. Or she could've left the baby on the floor of that bathroom. In the trash can, even?! Nope, she forcefully shoved the baby girl down a toilet. Utterly appalling.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Well I think it's rather dishonest to characterize this incident as "abandonment". She jammed her baby down the toilet. First responders had to tug the baby out of the U-trap! This is what that looks like. (source Google images)
View attachment 554920
I don't see what Texas abortion bans have to do with this toilet-jamming. There are safe havens. Or she could've left the baby on the floor of that bathroom. In the trash can, even?! Nope, she forcefully shoved the baby girl down a toilet. Utterly appalling.

Oh, I agree, this isn't just an abandonment. I think people are thinking maybe she literally gave birth into the toilet, which happens, and then in a very troubled and altered mental state, flushed (?) the toilet.

Does the mental state of women who do these things matter, or only what they did? For me, it is hard to imagine such a mental state, but I would like to hear them describe their experience and think ideally society listens carefully before jumping to immediate judgment. JMO.

 

[tlcya]

the idea that this woman opted to deliver in a whataburger, in secret and try to shove her 28 to 30 week viable fetus down a toilet rather than seek medical assistance because she feared she would be denied medical assistance makes zero sense to me. MOO

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I agree. She was afraid to go to a hospital for some other reason.

 

[Soulmagent]

Oh, I agree, this isn't just an abandonment. I think people are thinking maybe she literally gave birth into the toilet, which happens, and then in a very troubled and altered mental state, flushed (?) the toilet.

Does the mental state of women who do these things matter, or only what they did? For me, it is hard to imagine such a mental state, but I would like to hear them describe their experience and think ideally society listens carefully before jumping to immediate judgment. JMO.

What if the toilet auto flushed ?

 

[daybreaking]

Oh, I agree, this isn't just an abandonment. I think people are thinking maybe she literally gave birth into the toilet, which happens, and then in a very troubled and altered mental state, flushed (?) the toilet.

Does the mental state of women who do these things matter, or only what they did? For me, it is hard to imagine such a mental state, but I would like to hear them describe their experience and think ideally society listens carefully before jumping to immediate judgment. JMO.

A commercial toilet is going to be different from a regular home one, and as someone else pointed out, they sometimes flush automatically when you move from in front of the path of a sensor.

Someone's mental state absolutely matters - Crime involves some sort of intent or capability, regardless of how repugnant the end result is to people. If someone has a heart attack and crashes into a school, they don't necessarily deserve to face charges, as much harm and tragedy results.

Right now, all we know is that this woman had a medical emergency that she couldn't have anticipated, where instead of people calling for medical help for her - they gave her water, waited two hours to call for help, and then she was arrested. We also know that pregnancy can have serious impacts on women's health, including how they process things mentally.

Based on those two facts alone, it is my opinion that any decent lawyer should have already had her out of jail, if not had the charges dropped, and possibly filed a lawsuit against the restaurant for not rendering aid.

She has a public defender, however.

I also have thoughts based on what I've seen of this woman's employment history, her past court cases, (no drug charges, but an eviction and her mother filing for some form of custody of a child several years ago), and the location of where she went into labor. Based on these combined, this appears to be a woman living in severe poverty that doesn't have access to many resources, and potentially may not be functioning on the same level mentally as an average person.

I'd be surprised if she had much personal agency in the situation.

The same clinics which would be providing free birth control have closed in the past several years after Roe v Wade was overturned. Condoms from a store cost money.

Women living in poverty are twice as likely to be raped. We don't know how much agency she had in conceiving.

We don't know if she knew she was pregnant. Pregnancy tests cost money. Her height and weight is listed on court records, and based on those, she's definitely obese, (Class 2, but not morbidly obese). There's some relationship with that and PCOS, which means that she might have already had irregular periods.

We don't know if she had access to transportation to get to a hospital. If you expected her to walk - Remember, we already know she's obese, and we don't expect other pregnant women to walk extended distances because of physical strain that pregnancy puts on their body - they often have reserved parking spaces close to doors. She might have been feeling weaker and out of breath without knowing why.

Any comments about safe haven boxes are a moot point here - This happened 2 1/2 to 3 months before the baby's due date.

I don't think it requires any empathy or compassion to consider these things - just to have developed theory of mind and some pragmatism.

Edit to add jail information with height/weight: Jail View Edit 2: This site will give a general idea on a computer model of how someone's stomach will look at that weight: BMI Visualizer - BMIWebgl | Perceiving Systems

 

[IzzyBlanche]

the idea that this woman opted to deliver in a whataburger, in secret and try to shove her 28 to 30 week viable fetus down a toilet rather than seek medical assistance because she feared she would be denied medical assistance makes zero sense to me. MOO

With all due respect.

She might not have even known she was pregnant, or was in denial that she was. It happens. It seems unbelievable to me, but it does happen.

I think you are assuming the woman was mentally competent. I don't know that's been established, so maybe she wasn't.

As I understand the laws in Texas, if a pregnant woman shows up at a hospital, doctors have to tread carefully with treatment because they don't want to be prosecuted for performing an abortion.

Maybe she went to the hospital and doctors thought she needed a therapeutic abortion but were afraid to perform it and sent her away, so she decided to take things into her own hands.

There are a lot of unknowns here and I will not judge this woman until more facts come out.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Apparently Mallori said she did what she did because she wasn't selfish.

Perhaps in her mentally disturbed state her logic was that she wanted to keep her child but that would be selfish because her child would only suffer the same things she had, so the merciful thing was to kill her.

I don't know. I'm just throwing out theories.

Once again, I am not going to judge this woman until I know more.

Show of hands? How many of you condemning this woman also think Andrea Yates was an innocent victim?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

A commercial toilet is going to be different from a regular home one, and as someone else pointed out, they sometimes flush automatically when you move from in front of the path of a sensor.

Someone's mental state absolutely matters - Crime involves some sort of intent or capability, regardless of how repugnant the end result is to people. If someone has a heart attack and crashes into a school, they don't necessarily deserve to face charges, as much harm and tragedy results.

Right now, all we know is that this woman had a medical emergency that she couldn't have anticipated, where instead of people calling for medical help for her - they gave her water, waited two hours to call for help, and then she was arrested. We also know that pregnancy can have serious impacts on women's health, including how they process things mentally.

Based on those two facts alone, it is my opinion that any decent lawyer should have already had her out of jail, if not had the charges dropped, and possibly filed a lawsuit against the restaurant for not rendering aid.

She has a public defender, however.

I also have thoughts based on what I've seen of this woman's employment history, her past court cases, (no drug charges, but an eviction and her mother filing for some form of custody of a child several years ago), and the location of where she went into labor. Based on these combined, this appears to be a woman living in severe poverty that doesn't have access to many resources, and potentially may not be functioning on the same level mentally as an average person.

I'd be surprised if she had much personal agency in the situation.

The same clinics which would be providing free birth control have closed in the past several years after Roe v Wade was overturned. Condoms from a store cost money.

Women living in poverty are twice as likely to be raped. We don't know how much agency she had in conceiving.

We don't know if she knew she was pregnant. Pregnancy tests cost money. Her height and weight is listed on court records, and based on those, she's definitely obese, (Class 2, but not morbidly obese). There's some relationship with that and PCOS, which means that she might have already had irregular periods.

We don't know if she had access to transportation to get to a hospital. If you expected her to walk - Remember, we already know she's obese, and we don't expect other pregnant women to walk extended distances because of physical strain that pregnancy puts on their body - they often have reserved parking spaces close to doors. She might have been feeling weaker and out of breath without knowing why.

Any comments about safe haven boxes are a moot point here - This happened 2 1/2 to 3 months before the baby's due date.

I don't think it requires any empathy or compassion to consider these things - just to have developed theory of mind and some pragmatism.

Edit to add jail information with height/weight: Jail View Edit 2: This site will give a general idea on a computer model of how someone's stomach will look at that weight: BMI Visualizer - BMIWebgl | Perceiving Systems

I think anything I would want to reply to this would be instantly deleted by the mods.

Except yes, there are extenuating circumstances as usual.

I'll leave it at that.

Thank you.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Right now, all we know is that this woman had a medical emergency that she couldn't have anticipated, where instead of people calling for medical help for her - they gave her water, waited two hours to call for help

Do you believe a male employee is supposed to call 911 anytime a woman is in the bathroom acting ill? How was he supposed to figure out it was an emergency requiring 911? Male employees can't just go into the bathroom where women are doing what they need to do. He could have lost his job. I imagine someone asked her if she was okay or needed anything and she did not indicate it was an emergency. She was given water, which tells me everyone thought she had a stomach flu or similar. She doesn't get to sue them. IMO/JMO.

 

[Soulmagent]

Do you believe a male employee is supposed to call 911 anytime a woman is in the bathroom acting ill? How was he supposed to figure out it was an emergency requiring 911? Male employees can't just go into the bathroom where women are doing what they need to do. He could have lost his job. I imagine someone asked her if she was okay or needed anything and she did not indicate it was an emergency. She was given water, which tells me everyone thought she had a stomach flu or similar. She doesn't get to sue them. IMO/JMO.

I have seen people get pulled out of bathrooms..Overdoses are very common in public restrooms . So what happens in my line of work is 911 gts called 2 officers and a fire truck show up first then off to jail or rescue is requested. They pry the door off the hinges and in about 20 mintues it is back to normal. Pretty routine. So much so that people who are around often don't know anything is happening.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Do you believe a male employee is supposed to call 911 anytime a woman is in the bathroom acting ill? How was he supposed to figure out it was an emergency requiring 911? Male employees can't just go into the bathroom where women are doing what they need to do. He could have lost his job. I imagine someone asked her if she was okay or needed anything and she did not indicate it was an emergency. She was given water, which tells me everyone thought she had a stomach flu or similar. She doesn't get to sue them. IMO/JMO.

Where was it said that it was a male employee?
There was a manager working that shift who was quoted by media from MS's arrest affidavit but I don't recall any she/he said was quoted, just the manager.
Managers are well aware of what can take place in their bathrooms and could be a danger to their customers, loitering included.
IIRC:
Even after MS was making strange noises in the stall the manager still did not call LE/medics.

I'm curious what the owner and/or the corporate headquarters of this Whataburger had to say about how the situation was handled by their employees.

 

[MissMalowe]

I admire the grace & compassion many are extending this woman and I honestly do not mean for this to sound judgemental or argumentative, because it comes from a place of my genuinely wanting to understand but I am curious as to why some of that same grace & understanding isn't being extended to the Whataburger employees?

 

[Izzylizzy]

I admire the grace & compassion many are extending this woman and I honestly do not mean for this to sound judgemental or argumentative, because it comes from a place of my genuinely wanting to understand but I am curious as to why some of that same grace & understanding isn't being extended to the Whataburger employees?

IMO:
Whoever oversaw the decisions during the 4 hrs that MS was in their restaurant was incompetent and negligent.
They knew that MS loitered for 2 hours before entering the bathroom.
Also assuming that there was more than one bathroom stall unless the manager locked the bathroom door or positioned an employee in the bathroom during the 2 hrs that MS was in the stall and during her making strange noises they didn't know if the woman who locked herself in the stall for 2 hours wasn't a danger to their customers who also used the bathroom during that time period.
Even if there was an employee stationed in the bathroom (highly unlikely) that person also could have been in danger.

 

[tlcya]

Please, let's not throw stones at the Whataburger staff.

I'm going to update the thread title to reflect the correct offense date. According to the articles and her jail record, this occurred on Thursday, December 19th. It's hard to tell if she arrived at noon or midnight. The majority of articles indicate it happened between noon and 2 p.m. Her jail sheet isn't helpful because she wasn't formally booked into the detention center for quite some time (not unusual given the size of the facility and the time of year she was arrested).

Jail View

portal-txbexar.tylertech.cloud

She's currently only being charged with abuse of a corpse, so I wonder if more serious charges may come following a thorough investigation, or if they've already determined the baby wasn't living when she... did what she did.

Evidently, it's rare for a baby to be born still inside an intact amniotic sac. (I'm not a medical professional, just going based on what Google told me)

En Caul Birth: What Is It?

En caul birth is when a baby is born still inside an intact amniotic sac. Learn more about what causes it, why it’s important, and what to expect.

www.webmd.com

bump