UK UK - Alistair Wilson, 30, murdered at home, Nairn, Scotland, 28 Nov 2004

[touch]

In this and potentially other unsolved cases, the message might have been directed to only a few people, rather than the general public. The name of the victim, the blue envelope and the name Paul could add up to a highly direct message to some people in the criminal underworld.

I agree with you that this murder could be a message to other people. Those who it's meant for would know and everyone else has no idea.
I don't think the envelope could be related to that though. The killer removed the envelope* and would not be aware of what AW told his wife about it. He couldn't be sure that she had even seen it, let alone remember the name written on it. If the killer wanted the envelope and the name Paul to be in the media he would have left it at the scene.

*We don't actually know that the killer did remove the envelope. Maybe he did leave it at the scene and it blew away or someone else unknowingly removed it.

 

[CSIAngus]

When VW said the killer asked for AW by name, do we know that he asked for Alistair Wilson rather than, say, Alistair, Mr Wilson, or 'your husband'? That important moment has always seemed a bit vague to me. She also spoke to him but did he have a local accent, or from elsewhere in Scotland? A Nairn accent is very different from a Glasgow accent, for instance. Having read many accounts from VW in print and in interview clips, she doesn't give us much to go on. JMO

 

[dotr]

BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Police reveal murder gun origins

12 April, 2005 rbbm.
''The weapon has "C.G. Haenel Suhl-Schmeisser Patent" embossed on the side of the barrel and an "HS" monogram on the grips.

Detectives believe it may have been brought into the UK as a "war trophy" by service personnel during or after World War II.

Other explanations are that it was legally imported into the UK prior to 1997 or that it was smuggled into the country.

They also revealed that the ammunition used in the shooting was .25 ACP/6.35mm calibre, manufactured by Sellier and Bellot, Vlasim, Czech Republic.

It may at one time have been held legally in the UK but it too could have been smuggled into the country''
They said it had been manufactured between 1922 and 1930 by C.G. Haenel Waffen of Suhl, Germany. The pistol was mass-produced and exported throughout Europe.

Measuring just 116mm (approximately four-and-a-half inches) and weighing 390g (13.7oz), it is commonly known as a "pocket" or "waistcoat" pistol and is sometimes referred to as a "ladies'" gun because of its size.'

''

 

[rvlvr]

When VW said the killer asked for AW by name, do we know that he asked for Alistair Wilson rather than, say, Alistair, Mr Wilson, or 'your husband'? That important moment has always seemed a bit vague to me. She also spoke to him but did he have a local accent, or from elsewhere in Scotland? A Nairn accent is very different from a Glasgow accent, for instance. Having read many accounts from VW in print and in interview clips, she doesn't give us much to go on. JMO

In episode 2 of The Doorstep Murder podcast Fiona Walker says police confirmed that the only words the killer said to Veronica at the door were ‘Alistair Wilson’.

 

[CSIAngus]

In episode 2 of The Doorstep Murder podcast Fiona Walker says police confirmed that the only words the killer said to Veronica at the door were ‘Alistair Wilson’.

Seems a bit odd IMO if that was all he said to VW. Even creepy. I would have asked what it was about. So from the killer asking for her husband by name, to just saying his name, without giving a reason, and without an identifiable accent (unless that is being withheld). So many gaps in the story.

 

[Melquiades]

I disagree. I expect Dr. Rahman is very familiar with the actions of organized crime and other criminals.

It's a variant on the long tradition of symbolic asassinations. Consider the man who recently shot a CEO of a US health insurance company, on the street in NY. He wrote a message on the bullets. He didn't care about the man, he just did it because he wanted to bring attention, through the news media coverage of the murder, to the issue of the health care system. It was entirely symbolic, has nothing to do with the actual man.

Charles Manson had his followers select a random house and murder all the occupants, writing something in blood on the walls, believing that it would ignite a race war. ie the murders had nothing to do with the individuals but were entirely symbolic and so that the message would be delivered through the news media coverage. Interestingly, it didn't work - no one understood the message until Manson explained it.

Organized crime do this as well, since they can't call police/government to intervene in their disputes, or use ordinary advertising channels. The mafia has always governed by violence. But, traditionally, they would just break someone's legs or set fire to their home, and rely on word of mouth about the open secret. IMO, with the advent of mass communication, and competition in the drug trade, the violence has escalated...

The epitome of this is the wars of the Mexican drug cartels, when they are in intense competition with each other, as well as authorities. Around 2010 the brutality escalated to the level where a new gang would advertise that they'd moved into an area by killing a dozen innocent people and leaving all their bodies in an abandoned vehicle, or tossing their heads in a busy venue.

People often believe these crimes have something to do with anger or revenge or sociopathy, but not at all: they're simply warnings "don't mess with us because we'll stop at nothing". They are completely symbolic, and they target innocent people because they're just easier to kill, unlike other gang members who are on guard.

The crimes are completely outrageous precisely so that the message isn't confused with other theories about them being personal.

JMO

ETA In this and potentially other unsolved cases, the message might have been directed to only a few people, rather than the general public. The name of the victim, the blue envelope and the name Paul could add up to a highly direct message to some people in the criminal underworld.

There's no way in this case.

1) As someone mentioned already, there's no way the killer could have know that anything about 'Paul' or the envelope would be told to the wife. There's no way he could even have know that he'd come back to the door a second time. Nothing about this says 'messaging via random victim' in any way. 0

2) This happened in Nairn, Scotland. This is a small seaside vacation town where people go to golf. It's a 3+ hour drive from Glasgow and about as far as you can get from organized crime anywhere in Europe. Underworld killings aren't happening here.

People always end up reaching for zebras instead of just looking for horses in unsolved cases like this. This - like virtually all murders that aren't sex crimes - was a personal attack for personal reasons, not some weird mob murder.

 

[alb1on]

There's no way in this case.

1) As someone mentioned already, there's no way the killer could have know that anything about 'Paul' or the envelope would be told to the wife. There's no way he could even have know that he'd come back to the door a second time. Nothing about this says 'messaging via random victim' in any way. 0

2) This happened in Nairn, Scotland. This is a small seaside vacation town where people go to golf. It's a 3+ hour drive from Glasgow and about as far as you can get from organized crime anywhere in Europe. Underworld killings aren't happening here.

People always end up reaching for zebras instead of just looking for horses in unsolved cases like this. This - like virtually all murders that aren't sex crimes - was a personal attack for personal reasons, not some weird mob murder.

I agree generally. My only qualification is that it is not impossible that there is an undiscovered or undisclosed motive related to criminal or other dubious activity. At almost the same time as the Wilson murder a Swindon bank manager was killed due to his drug habit and dealing, and there have been other cases. However, I have seen no indication of this in the Wilson case and, anyway, if it were the case it would be more likely to be local criminal activity than organised crime. The same applies to his banking activity. He was too junior to be a symbolic target (try Fred the Shred, CEO of RBS for that), but again local activity could produce a specific grudge. Just look at the HBOS Reading branch scandal which bankrupted multiple small businesses and was unknown to their head office for many years.
However I am unconvinced by the planning story. It seems to be grasping at straws and ignores the issue of unconnected locals having access to an illegal handgun and, even if this was an historic relic not handed in, then being able to source very illegal modern ammunition for it.

 

[SteveH]

I disagree. I expect Dr. Rahman is very familiar with the actions of organized crime and other criminals.

It's a variant on the long tradition of symbolic asassinations. Consider the man who recently shot a CEO of a US health insurance company, on the street in NY. He wrote a message on the bullets. He didn't care about the man, he just did it because he wanted to bring attention, through the news media coverage of the murder, to the issue of the health care system. It was entirely symbolic, has nothing to do with the actual man.

Charles Manson had his followers select a random house and murder all the occupants, writing something in blood on the walls, believing that it would ignite a race war. ie the murders had nothing to do with the individuals but were entirely symbolic and so that the message would be delivered through the news media coverage. Interestingly, it didn't work - no one understood the message until Manson explained it.

Organized crime do this as well, since they can't call police/government to intervene in their disputes, or use ordinary advertising channels. The mafia has always governed by violence. But, traditionally, they would just break someone's legs or set fire to their home, and rely on word of mouth about the open secret. IMO, with the advent of mass communication, and competition in the drug trade, the violence has escalated...

The epitome of this is the wars of the Mexican drug cartels, when they are in intense competition with each other, as well as authorities. Around 2010 the brutality escalated to the level where a new gang would advertise that they'd moved into an area by killing a dozen innocent people and leaving all their bodies in an abandoned vehicle, or tossing their heads in a busy venue.

People often believe these crimes have something to do with anger or revenge or sociopathy, but not at all: they're simply warnings "don't mess with us because we'll stop at nothing". They are completely symbolic, and they target innocent people because they're just easier to kill, unlike other gang members who are on guard.

The crimes are completely outrageous precisely so that the message isn't confused with other theories about them being personal.

JMO

ETA In this and potentially other unsolved cases, the message might have been directed to only a few people, rather than the general public. The name of the victim, the blue envelope and the name Paul could add up to a highly direct message to some people in the criminal underworld.

From what I have seen of Dr Rahman I doubt he is well acquainted with that much actually. But I'll be accused of an ad hominem attack there.

The idea that Manson's by proxy murders of Sharon Tate et al were "symbolic" is extremely contentious. Manson had been in the house several times and had a grudge against Terry Melcher. The "race war" thing may have been an invention of prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi who needed a hook to snare Manson.

"In 1968, Beach Boy Dennis Wilson introduced Melcher to ex-con and aspiring musician Charles Manson. Manson and his "family" had been living in Wilson's house at 14400 Sunset Boulevard after Wilson had picked up hitchhiking Manson family members Patricia Krenwinkel and Ella Jo Bailey. Wilson expressed interest in Manson's music and also recorded two of Manson's songs with the Beach Boys. For a time, Melcher was interested in recording Manson's music as well as making a film about the family and their hippie commune existence. Manson met Melcher at 10050 Cielo Drive, the home that Melcher shared with his girlfriend, actress Candice Bergen and musician Mark Lindsay."

"Rudolph Altobelli (1929–2011), a music and film industry talent manager, bought the house for $86,000 in the early 1960s and often rented it out...Charles Manson visited the house in late 1968, when it was occupied (from May 1967 to January 1969) by couple Terry Melcher (the son of actress Doris Day) and Candice Bergen."

(Both quotes from Wikipedia)

Alistair Wilson wasn't the CEO of anything. He wasn't a Beach Boy either despite his surname! I find the idea that this was a "symbolic" crime frankly ludicrous. But I'm sure we can agree to disagree.

 

[Melquiades]

I agree generally. My only qualification is that it is not impossible that there is an undiscovered or undisclosed motive related to criminal or other dubious activity. At almost the same time as the Wilson murder a Swindon bank manager was killed due to his drug habit and dealing, and there have been other cases. However, I have seen no indication of this in the Wilson case and, anyway, if it were the case it would be more likely to be local criminal activity than organised crime. The same applies to his banking activity. He was too junior to be a symbolic target (try Fred the Shred, CEO of RBS for that), but again local activity could produce a specific grudge. Just look at the HBOS Reading branch scandal which bankrupted multiple small businesses and was unknown to their head office for many years.
However I am unconvinced by the planning story. It seems to be grasping at straws and ignores the issue of unconnected locals having access to an illegal handgun and, even if this was an historic relic not handed in, then being able to source very illegal modern ammunition for it.

Oh, there's absolutely a possibility that there could have been some small personal motivation connected to his job that led to this crime. But there's no way in hell this was organized crime or some sort of 'professional hit' to 'send a message'.

The occupation 'banker' has a huge range of actual import and it feels like some people are pumping this guy up to be more important than he was in order to peddle conspiracy theories. This was the manager of a branch in essentially the boonies of Scotland in a vacation town of <10000 people. Given his age he probably would have moved back to Glasgow/Edinburgh eventually and risen through the ranks but when this murder happened this was not any sort of 'big shot' with significant influence.

As it is, it seems like the police have a pretty good idea who did this but no real hard physical evidence so things have been at a standstill for years.

 

[touch]

One thing I'd like to know more about is how long AW and VW spent discussing things. I get the impression it was maybe 2-4 minutes but not sure. Also I'd particularly like to know exactly why AW went back outside. Early reports said AW had already concluded his business, whatever it was, at the end of the first conversation. Other reports suggest going back outside was just something AW decided to do on the spot. If that's correct then presumably for the time being at least he was supposed to keep the envelope. But then it makes no sense that the caller was still hanging around. If however, as seems possible, it was always his intention to go back outside and the caller expected him, how could the caller be confident he would do so? Unless it was someone AW knew well for example but that doesn't tie in with AW being bewildered.The more you think about it, the more it makes your head hurt.

I was just reading the first page of this thread again and I stumbled across the answer to your questions. In this article which was published in 2005, there is a bit more detail which seems to have been lost over the years.

Upstairs in their home, Mr Wilson spoke to his wife for a few minutes. Police will not reveal the precise details, but they say Mr Wilson did not appear to know why the man had called. He never opened the envelope. Although at first Mr Wilson seemed to have finished with the man, a few minutes later he decided to go back to the front door. It was a fatal error.

The man had been standing on the doorstep for around seven minutes. Mrs Wilson watched her husband go back downstairs, but she heard nothing of the conversation on the doorstep: their home was once a hotel and a firedoor at the top of the stairs deadened the exchange.

7 minutes is a long time for the killer to have been waiting outside the door! It also sounds like there was more conversation the second time AW went to the door and not shot immediately.

 

[SteveH]

According to Family Search Alistair's middle name was Paul. Perhaps that is why he was discombulated.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:656R-51NM?lang=en

You need to be a member to look at the records. It's free to join!

 

[CSIAngus]

According to Family Search Alistair's middle name was Paul. Perhaps that is why he was discombulated.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:656R-51NM?lang=en

You need to be a member to look at the records. It's free to join!

Has a middle name for AW been mentioned before on this thread? I can't recall it.

 

[SteveH]

Has a middle name for AW been mentioned before on this thread? I can't recall it.

Not that I'm aware of. Somebody alerted me to the record on another site.

There is some confusion about the dates in the records so maybe the info about the middle name is a mistake or deliberate misinformation. Other records have him as just Alistair - the dates are all over the place.

Name	Mr Alistair Paul Wilson
Sex	Male
Age	30 years
Birth Date	1994
Event Type	Death
Event Date	28 November 2024

Veronica	Wife	F

Andrew Wilson	Son	M

Name	Alistair Paul Wilson
Sex	Male
Age	30 years
Birth Date	1974
Event Type	Death
Event Date	1 December 2004
Event Place	Scotland, United Kingdom

 

[davidt]

I was just reading the first page of this thread again and I stumbled across the answer to your questions. In this article which was published in 2005, there is a bit more detail which seems to have been lost over the years.


7 minutes is a long time for the killer to have been waiting outside the door! It also sounds like there was more conversation the second time AW went to the door and not shot immediately.

Thanks. That's a bit ambiguous as it's not entirely clear whether the seven minutes means the entire time the caller was there from start to end, or if its just referring to tbe period between the first and second conversation. I notice that the article also says AW decides to go back outside. That again indicates it was just something he did there and then rather than being expected to do so. It also says AW did not appear to know what it was all about which seems to make the decking theory more unlikely unless he was hiding it from Veronica.

He didn't open the envelope and I've read a report before saying the police believed that was because he knew what was in it. Although subsequently the idea the envelope had something in it seems to have disappeared.

As for AWs middle name being Paul. If that's correct I wonder if anyone knew him by his middle name instead of his first one.

 

[davidt]

A couple of paragraphs from the Guardian article are interesting.

Police cannot explain why Mr Wilson was killed. They believe the murder must have been planned, but say its execution was bizarre. They cannot explain why he was not shot when he first went to the door, especially when he initially appeared to have no intention of returning to speak to the man.
This appears to confirm the gunman had no expectation of seeing either AW or the envelope again that night.

On the night her husband was killed, Mrs Wilson answered the door to a stranger. He said only: "Alistair Wilson." Mrs Wilson went to get her husband.
This answers the question rraised the other day of how AW wax asked for by name. You might think he would have perhaps said something like "does Alastair Wilson live here?" Or "can I speak to Alastair Wilson?" You may also think VW would have asked him who he was or what he wanted, but apparently not.

Obviously both bits depend on the article bring accurate.

 

[SteveH]

Alistair's middle name was not Paul!

 

[Melquiades]

The central thing about this case, to me, is that that the double-meetup has to mean that this wasn't a planned murder. If the murderer was just there to kill the victim, you do it right away and you aren't handing him an envelope and letting him walk away and hoping he comes back. The reason the murderer was there was that they wanted something and there was an intended negotiation and then when that failed and/or there was an escalation of tensions the murder happens. I feel like you can pretty much carve that bit of things in stone.

Like, it's *almost* possible to put together a very reasonable guess at what happened here. Victim files a complaint about the deck at the pub. Shady builder stands to lose a lot of money, goes to see the complainant to say essentially 'Hey mate, your complaint is going to absolutely screw us and put our company under, let's work something out where you drop it'. Victim says 'get stuffed' and things escalate and he gets shot.

The only problem with that is the weirdness of the envelope and what it means and where it fits.

I feel like the victim's apparent 'confusion' over why the murderer was there is a bit of a red herring easily explained by a guy who didn't want to worry his wife/small child about why there was a shady/threatening guy knocking on their door after dark and/or get in trouble from his wife for having his affairs bring that sort of guy there. There's no way they had a discussion of a few minutes and he didn't know why the guy was there.

 

[SteveH]

After going down the garden path with Alistair's middle name I have done a bit more digging and have come up with new info which is definitely correct.

I can't really give full details but I have found the names of the police suspect's parents. His father died in Nairn in 2010. His mother has a very unusual, biblical, name which begins with P and ends with L. There's a U in there too. At a quick glance, although the name has six letters, it could be mistaken for Paul if sloppily written. This is correct info as records show the three living together in Nairn. Father and son have the same middle name. The mother had a very respectable and responsible job.

Looking at the position of the house dead opposite the pub is it really likely that a professional hitman would stand on the doorstep for ten to fifteen minutes even in the dark?

Use a mouse or arrow keys to revolve the picture in the below link:

Street View of Nairn · Google Maps

United Kingdom

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[CSIAngus]

A couple of paragraphs from the Guardian article are interesting.

Police cannot explain why Mr Wilson was killed. They believe the murder must have been planned, but say its execution was bizarre. They cannot explain why he was not shot when he first went to the door, especially when he initially appeared to have no intention of returning to speak to the man.
This appears to confirm the gunman had no expectation of seeing either AW or the envelope again that night.

On the night her husband was killed, Mrs Wilson answered the door to a stranger. He said only: "Alistair Wilson." Mrs Wilson went to get her husband.
This answers the question rraised the other day of how AW wax asked for by name. You might think he would have perhaps said something like "does Alastair Wilson live here?" Or "can I speak to Alastair Wilson?" You may also think VW would have asked him who he was or what he wanted, but apparently not.

Obviously both bits depend on the article bring accurate.

For me, this is not how people talk to cold callers on a doorstep. You would ask 'who are you?' and 'what do you want him for?'. VW's account does not stack up if accurately reported.

As for middle name, was AW ever known as Paul or used Paul Wilson for any purpose?

 

[davidt]

The central thing about this case, to me, is that that the double-meetup has to mean that this wasn't a planned murder. If the murderer was just there to kill the victim, you do it right away and you aren't handing him an envelope and letting him walk away and hoping he comes back. The reason the murderer was there was that they wanted something and there was an intended negotiation and then when that failed and/or there was an escalation of tensions the murder happens. I feel like you can pretty much carve that bit of things in stone.

Like, it's *almost* possible to put together a very reasonable guess at what happened here. Victim files a complaint about the deck at the pub. Shady builder stands to lose a lot of money, goes to see the complainant to say essentially 'Hey mate, your complaint is going to absolutely screw us and put our company under, let's work something out where you drop it'. Victim says 'get stuffed' and things escalate and he gets shot.

The only problem with that is the weirdness of the envelope and what it means and where it fits.

I feel like the victim's apparent 'confusion' over why the murderer was there is a bit of a red herring easily explained by a guy who didn't want to worry his wife/small child about why there was a shady/threatening guy knocking on their door after dark and/or get in trouble from his wife for having his affairs bring that sort of guy there. There's no way they had a discussion of a few minutes and he didn't know why the guy was there.

I think this is a great example of the problems in this case. You have a really plausible scenario which makes a lot of sense. But as you acknowledge in order for it to work you have to assume significant parts of VWs account as has been presented so far is simply wrong. That applies to all the scenarios that have been suggested to date. They just don't fit the sequence of events we've been given and you can't just ignore the bits that don't fit. You have to deal with those as well.

Was AW really confused and did he really have no idea what it was all about? It's possible if the caller was speaking total gibberish or was drunk, high or mentally ill. Alternatively I guess he could have been genuinely talking about something AW had no idea about. If either apply then surely it rules the decking theory out as Alastair would have realised what it was about.

What are the alternatives if AW wasn't really confused at all? AW may have been hiding something from Veronica, perhaps to protect her or because he didn't want her to know something. And to cover all bases you could also ask if Veronica has given an accurate account of how Alastair was.

That's all before you get on to what the envelope was all about. As you say the envelope bit does have the potential to be a giant distraction and a total red herring. I'm still a bit cynical why after so many years had passed the police made a fresh appeal about it. It seems unlikely in the extreme anyone can possibly have any information on it. I mean who's going to remember seeing an envelope? I have a suspicion the appeal was a cover for something else. Perhaps aimed specifically at certain individuals.