Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #4 *M. Bridger guilty*

[jigzy]

The locals were probably looking anywhere and everywhere they could think of.

I think they had revealed the 'left hand drive' info before that time, so people might have headed for the area around his home having suspicions that it was his vehicle. jmo.

 

[Blunomore]

you DO know dont you that many have been charged with murder only to be exonerated after, its a very high percentage too.

I sincerely doubt that.

 

[bijoux]

Thanks Clio, but I previously recognised that the search teams were searching there, on the banks of, and in the River Dulas - I have posted about it previously also.

What I am OMGosh-ing about is that Carwen Sheen saw 'black bag' man scrambling down a slope there, near Ceinws! We were led to believe that it was on the banks of the Dyfi that 'black bag' man was seen.

ETA: led to believe by the media not LE

Could someone please help me with my bearings so I understand the proximity of the River Dulas to the River Dyfi, for instance how long would it take to walk from one to the other.

 

[cluciano63]

of course police get it right most of the time, but seeing the strange circumstances of this case and how quickly it all happened and no knowledge of what police have people are going to speculate and have opinions, but its a far cry to say because someone is charged it must mean they are guilty

I've said nothing like that; but I do believe that LE has evidence that points to his being guilty, hence the charges. I do not believe for an instant that he was charged without good evidence.

 

[Clutchbag]

What do you base this personal opinion on?

subjective personal opinion on his photo and what ive read about his character

 

[Clutchbag]

I've said nothing like that; but I do believe that LE has evidence that points to his being guilty, hence the charges. I do not believe for an instant that he was charged without good evidence.

No you didnt say that another poster did when she was asking how can anyone still believe he is innocent to which I replied he is until proven otherwise

Colin Stagg? charged with no evidence whatsoever

 

[Clutchbag]

I sincerely doubt that.

I posted a link in the last thread that showed around 25% of murder charges ended up in the accused being acquitted, I will try find it

 

[cluciano63]

I posted a link in the last thread that showed around 25% of murder charges ended up in the accused being acquitted, I will try find it

Even if that is true...it hardly means they were innocent, just that the case was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Cappuccino]

Even if that is true...it hardly means they were innocent, just that the case was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

It still means that there is obviously a difference between the standard of evidence needed for the cps to charge someone and the standard needed to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Which answers josie1986's question about why anybody can possibly still doubt his guilt when the cps have charged him.

 

[jigzy]

Could someone please help me with my bearings so I understand the proximity of the River Dulas to the River Dyfi, for instance how long would it take to walk from one to the other.

The River Dulas runs South toward Machynlleth and joins the River Dyfi which flows West to the sea. To confuse matters, there is also a River Dulas South of Machynlleth running North to join the Dyfi.

This map shows both. For clarity, the Welsh word Afon means River in English. Also, the River Dovey is marked in English here not Welsh, which should be Afon Dyfi.

http://goo.gl/maps/o3o4m

Drag the map down and you will see Esgairgeiliog (nearest place to Ceinws) marked a few miles (4.3 miles) North of Machynlleth

 

[Clutchbag]

Even if that is true...it hardly means they were innocent, just that the case was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Well if you want to think people guilty before being proved innocent and that all juries get it wrong thats your prerogative

 

[George Gently]

Even if that is true...it hardly means they were innocent, just that the case was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.

That may be a possible outcome in a French Court but in England & Wales the choice is between Guilty or Not Guilty.

We have an adversarial argument in open court rather than inquisitional so the emphasis is on innocent until proven guilty rather than guilty unless not proven.

 

[cluciano63]

I understand the difference between guilty and not-guilty. But I also believe that guilty people are acquitted, just as innocent people are sometimes convicted. It works both ways.

I have no opinion on the suspect's guilt in this case; I only have, at this time, confidence that LE has evidence that they believe points to him and that the prosecution agrees.

 

[bijoux]

Drag the map down and you will see Esgairgeiliog (nearest place to Ceinws) marked a few miles (4.3 miles) North of Machynlleth

Thank you, jigzy.
So do you reckon it would take a 1 hr - 1.30 hr to walk the distance?

 

[jigzy]

Thank you, jigzy.
So do you reckon it would take a 1 hr - 1.30 hr to walk the distance?

Oh Gosh Bijoux, I'm not very good at judging walking distances in hilly Wales I'm afraid. Places that look like a gentle stroll on a map might take considerably longer than expected, and Googlemaps 'streetview' doesn't always show inclines and declines as they actually are in reality I find.
Having said that, I do know the main road in that valley, the A487, and the time taken to walk between Ceinws and Machynlleth could well take that time - depends also on whether the route taken followed one of the roads or across fields, foliage, etc.

 

[George Gently]

I understand the difference between guilty and not-guilty. But I also believe that guilty people are acquitted, just as innocent people are sometimes convicted. It works both ways.

I have no opinion on the suspect's guilt in this case; I only have, at this time, confidence that LE has evidence that they believe points to him and that the prosecution agrees.

No system can be perfect but if new evidence emerges then someone found guilty can appeal or someone found not guilty can be brought back for a re-trial as we no longer have Double Jeopardy in the UK.

Clearly the CPS believe they have sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution in the public interest but that evidence may be challenged in open court. Despite its shortcomings I have some faith in the criminal justice system when compared to others.

From watching TV programs I get the impression that American Courts although also adversarial can be quite flamboyant. I could be wrong. However, in a British Crown Court all individuality and personality will be removed by the barristers wearing wigs and gowns so that all appear the same to the jury and prevent any minor issue of appearance causing any prejudice in the jury.

The trial will be fair.

I have no opinion regarding guilt or innocence but he clearly has a case to answer.

 

[BritsKate]

Just to expand the knowledge database a bit here....

In 2010 1.37 million offenders were convicted of a criminal offence in the UK. The same year just 190 criminal court appeals against conviction were allowed. (Not including, of course, appeals seeking to modify sentencing.) Source: www.justice.gov.uk

And for our foreign friends, the same legal standard is employed here:

Beyond reasonable doubt (BRD) is the standard of proof used to convict defendants charged with crimes in the English criminal justice system. If the decision maker perceives that the probability the defendant committed the crime as charged (based on the evidence) is equal or greater than their interpretation of BRD, than he/she will decide to convict. Otherwise, the decision maker will acquit the defendant. It is generally agreed that BRD should be interpreted as a .91 probability.

http://www.crim.cam.ac.uk/research/beyond_reasonable_doubt/

 

[LittleMissContrary]

No system can be perfect but if new evidence emerges then someone found guilty can appeal or someone found not guilty can be brought back for a re-trial as we no longer have Double Jeopardy in the UK.

Clearly the CPS believe they have sufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution in the public interest but that evidence may be challenged in open court. Despite its shortcomings I have some faith in the criminal justice system when compared to others.

From watching TV programs I get the impression that American Courts although also adversarial can be quite flamboyant. I could be wrong. However, in a British Crown Court all individuality and personality will be removed by the barristers wearing wigs and gowns so that all appear the same to the jury and prevent any minor issue of appearance causing any prejudice in the jury.

The trial will be fair.

I have no opinion regarding guilt or innocence but he clearly has a case to answer.

Thank you for sharing this piece of information. That is really interesting. I think there is definitely some merit to that idea, as our most high profile cases sometimes turn into a dog and pony show.

 

[Salem]

You were asked to stop the guilty/not guilty discussion. Please STOP it now. This thread is about April. If you want to discuss judicial systems take it to the JURY ROOM and get off this thread.

This is the final warning. Please try to focus on April and how she might be found.

Salem

 

[LittleMissContrary]

You were asked to stop the guilty/not guilty discussion. Please STOP it now. This thread is about April. If you want to discuss judicial systems take it to the JURY ROOM and get off this thread.

This is the final warning. Please try to focus on April and how she might be found.

Salem

Taking the lead from the direction given by Salem, I have an idea which we can kick around a bit.

Where would the perp, if it is indeed MB, have likely taken April?
Since that question has already been discussed and is currently still the focus of the physical search, I would like to play devil's advocate for a moment.

If we assume for a moment that MB is not in fact the person who abducted April, where should we look? How should the investigation proceed?

Other than the recent abduction attempts, allegedly of a young boy, by the man and woman, are there any other examples of this type of thing happening?
Maybe there are no examples in Wales, but what about in other parts of the U.K.?