Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #5 *M. Bridger guilty*

[veggiefan]

I have narrowed it down to two scenarios that I believe could have happened it in fact MB is guilty:

...

2) This was a rage killing. He murdered her, cleaned up, and disposed of the body leaving evidence in his cottage.
*****And I find this unlikely because they held him for almost the full 96 hours THEN charged him with murder.

I don't find the delay surprising because:

1) The police have to present their evidence to the CPS before charges can be brought, and the CPS need time to evaluate that evidence. Although not unprecedented, a murder charge without a body is unusual and they would need convincing that the evidence really is watertight before agreeing to proceed in such circumstances.

2) The police will have been aware that they cannot question the suspect further after charges have been brought, unless new evidence comes to light. They will therefore have wanted to use the maximum time allowed by law to persuade him to reveal the location of the body before bringing charges.

 

[veggiefan]

If this report is correct then it's difficult to imagine how MB could have driven into town grinding, crashing and banging without drawing attention to himself. Why, then, does there seem to be a "witness deficit" in this regard?

There are virtually no roadside buildings between Ceinws and the garage (which can be reached without driving through the town). Neither do people normally walk down the A487, as there is no footpath.

 

[veggiefan]

I don't see how you can generalize.

I didn't intend to generalise. I know the Dyfi quite well, and have seen it in flood.

You may be surprised at the fact they don't float for quite a while. Gross I know

I'm aware of that, but after heavy rain, the river is not quiet enough for a body to just lay on the bottom - just look at the tons of water surging under the Dyfi bridge in the video link that I posted.

In any case, we have the evidence of poor Beryl Jones who fell into the river Dyfi in Machynlleth more than 60 years ago. At the age of 8 she would probably have been heavier than AJ, and we know that her body was washed out to sea by the river and eventually found 70 miles away up the coast.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Don't know if anyone here saw this, apparently some detectives were interviewed during the time MB was still being questioned and they gave an insight into how he might be responding to the process. They said the usual would be 'deny, deny, deny', tell Police nothing, or something generalised like ' body in the river', and no more. That would explain the 'attempting to pervert the course of justice' charge.
I don't have a link, will try to find one.

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

Do we know where the garage is located? Presumably in Machynlleth itself, but he was arrested later that day walking in the direction of Machynlleth? Did he go home in the meantime and if so how did he get there? On foot? By bus? Taxi? Did someone give him a lift?

Do we even know that he dropped his car at the garage the next day? I used to rent a flat above a garage and it was common for garage customers to drop their cars off after hours and push their car keys through the office letterbox. Sometimes this would occur very late at night, i.e. a recovery vehicle depositing a roadside breakdown for repair.

It's the first turning on the left when driving into Mach from Dyfi bridge, before you drive under the railway bridge. It's a very short distance from the railway station. It's also the site of the old Corris Railway yard.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

It's the first turning on the left when driving into Mach from Dyfi bridge, before you drive under the railway bridge. It's a very short distance from the railway station. It's also the site of the old Corris Railway yard.

I have been on Google earth this arvo, looking at the significant places in the case.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I didn't intend to generalise. I know the Dyfi quite well, and have seen it in flood.



I'm aware of that, but after heavy rain, the river is not quiet enough for a body to just lay on the bottom - just look at the tons of water surging under the Dyfi bridge in the video link that I posted.

In any case, we have the evidence of poor Beryl Jones who fell into the river Dyfi in Machynlleth more than 60 years ago. At the age of 8 she would probably have been heavier than AJ, and we know that her body was washed out to sea by the river and eventually found 70 miles away up the coast.

'The Dyfi estuary, low water levels and winter ice'-

 

[BritsKate]

I remember a case from a good few years ago where a man murdered his wife. The police had a cadaver dog indication has the only real evidence with everything else being purely circumstantial IIRC.

He was eventually arrested, charged and convicted of murder. It turned out in this case that they got the right man and he confessed last year and told them where he buried her.

Point is, the police/CPS here in the UK quite often charge people with very little solid evidence.

I will wait to see what evidence they have on MB but have to say that the fact they are putting 5/7 year old kids in court doesn't fill me with confidence.

I am probably wrong but I haven't heard of such young kids used as witnesses in a murder trial.

1st BBM:
Circumstantial evidence is real evidence though. Even DNA, blood analysis and finger prints are legally considered 'circumstantial'.

Law enforcement/CPS in that case had a lot more on Adrian Prout than just an HRD indication including evidence of a tumultuous relationship, antagonistic divorce, extra-marital affair, no record of activity nor Kate contacting anyone after she went 'missing', Adrian's admission to Bellamy that others had 'taken' Kate away before he reported her missing, a request for a higher divorce settlement the very day she disappeared and even more still. Brian Pixton, who built the case against Prout, explains it best:

“We had a case where no body was ever found and therefore no creating of a forensic link between Adrian Prout and his wife’s disappearance.

“What we did have was evidence to show that this crime was premeditated, Adrian Prout had a means of concealing her body and also a reason to do so.“We worked closely with the Gloucestershire Constabulary, and a number of expert witnesses, to make sure we would be able to present every available piece of evidence to this jury at court.

“The code of the crown prosecutors dictates we must have sufficient evidence for a good prospect of conviction before we charge a suspect.

“The evidence that the court heard included evidence of motive, evidence of means and also the evidence of the extra-marital affair that he was engaged in.”

He added: “Clearly we felt there was sufficient evidence in this case, but the final decision rests with the jury.”

2nd BBM:
This is a quote from an expose by PBS (America's Public Broadcasting System - mainly educational programming) on the veracity, or lack thereof, in regards to child witnesses:

A careful reading of the scientific literature indicates that there are reliable age differences in suggestibility, with preschool aged children's reports being somewhat more impeded by erroneous suggestions than older children's reports.

It also states:

Although there are no reliable figures on the number of children who end up participating in family court or criminal justice proceedings, an extrapolation from some recent New York State data to the entire nation suggests that this number could be in the vicinity of 100,000.

If one adds to this 100,000 figure the large number of non-abuse cases that result in children participating in court proceedings (e.g., as witnesses to domestic violence, road accidents, playground injuries), then their participation in the legal system rises considerably. Thus, it has become common to see young children providing testimony in a range of cases, from custody disputes to felonious murders.

The CPS home page also has some material on child witnesses - a guideline of sorts of how to best interview, what other matters need consideration given their age, etc. FWIW

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

'The Dyfi estuary, low water levels and winter ice'-

View attachment 27519

Indeed. That photo's taken from the Tywyn/Aberdovey road just by where the railway joins the road after running across the valley floor, roughly at the site of the old Gogarth halt. In the middle distance is Dovey Junction station

/Shameless plug on.

I've some steam videos taken in the Dovey estuary. The last one is of the service passing Dovey Junction, over Dovey (railway) Bridge, and on across the marsh in the photo linked here. You can see just how achingly beautiful this part of the world is. The UK's only UNESCO biosphere.

76079, Frongoch, The Cambrian - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 21/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 23/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Dovey bridge, 31/07/2007 - YouTube

/Shameless p/ug off

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Indeed. That photo's taken from the Tywyn/Aberdovey road just by where the railway joins the road after running across the valley floor, roughly at the site of the old Gogarth halt. In the middle distance is Dovey Junction station

/Shameless plug on.

I've some steam videos taken in the Dovey estuary. The last one is of the service passing Dovey Junction, over Dovey (railway) Bridge, and on across the marsh in the photo linked here. You can see just how achingly beautiful this part of the world is. The UK's only UNESCO biosphere.

76079, Frongoch, The Cambrian - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 21/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 23/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Dovey bridge, 31/07/2007 - YouTube

/Shameless p/ug off

Stunning, thank you - love steam trains


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdecxqW7Tr0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In this film, about 5:38 is the river bailiff, then about 6:05 - which bridge is this please?

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Indeed. That photo's taken from the Tywyn/Aberdovey road just by where the railway joins the road after running across the valley floor, roughly at the site of the old Gogarth halt. In the middle distance is Dovey Junction station

/Shameless plug on.

I've some steam videos taken in the Dovey estuary. The last one is of the service passing Dovey Junction, over Dovey (railway) Bridge, and on across the marsh in the photo linked here. You can see just how achingly beautiful this part of the world is. The UK's only UNESCO biosphere.

76079, Frongoch, The Cambrian - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 21/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Frongoch, 23/08/2007 - YouTube

76079, Dovey bridge, 31/07/2007 - YouTube

/Shameless p/ug off

Re: Dovey railway bridge and marsh - note that the cows aren't bothered, doesn't disrupt their grazing at all

 

[veggiefan]

/Shameless plug on.

I've some steam videos taken in the Dovey estuary. The last one is of the service passing Dovey Junction, over Dovey (railway) Bridge, and on across the marsh in the photo linked here. You can see just how achingly beautiful this part of the world is. The UK's only UNESCO biosphere.

Some lovely shots, Cendlaetholwr. We've holidayed in Pennal, just a mile from Dovey Junction, many times, which is why I know a bit about the area. It really is fabulous, especially with the sea and high mountains right on the doorstep.

I'm always amazed at how the Corris valley acts as a magnet for any rain around - I guess because its where moist air suddenly has to rise over the mountains. I've stood in the dry at the top station of the funicular railway at the Centre for Advanced Technology, close to Ceinws, and looked down on clouds delivering rain to the valley far below. Happy memories, but a rather sad location at present.

 

[veggiefan]

In this film, about 5:38 is the river bailiff, then about 6:05 - which bridge is this please?

That's the Dyfi bridge, which leads into Machynlleth from north of the River Dyfi - it is the most direct route from Ceinws to Machynlleth, and the way that the buses run.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

That's the Dyfi bridge, which leads into Machynlleth from north of the River Dyfi - it is the most direct route from Ceinws to Machynlleth, and the way that the buses run.

It's good to be able to put the pictures with the places.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

That's the Dyfi bridge, which leads into Machynlleth from north of the River Dyfi - it is the most direct route from Ceinws to Machynlleth, and the way that the buses run.

So would it be just a bit further on from this bridge where the mechanic's garage is?

 

[Cherwell]

If this report is correct then it's difficult to imagine how MB could have driven into town grinding, crashing and banging without drawing attention to himself. Why, then, does there seem to be a "witness deficit" in this regard?

General comment, not just related to this point - Unless witnesses have been mentioned in the media, we won't know of their existence. There could be various sightings that we haven't been told about.

 

[PADDYWHACK]

So his neighbours had nothing better to do on the morning in question than observe the presence or absence of his vehicle for a solid hour and fifteen minutes?

In what sense was his car "missing" from his home? My car is "missing" from my home most days and this means nothing whatsoever.

We have no way of knowing the accuracy of these reports, which could be based on answers given to 'loaded' questions.

Q. "Did you notice MB's car between 08:00 and 09:00?"
A. "No, but I looked out my window and saw it at 09:15"

The media then reports this to give the impression that the vehicle was "missing" for the duration.

Some suggest that MB was busy disposing of AJ's body during this period. If so, where were his eagle-eyed neighbours when he loaded the body into his vehicle and drove away?

Excellent post which puts the press gossip into perspective.

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

Stunning, thank you - love steam trains


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdecxqW7Tr0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In this film, about 5:38 is the river bailiff, then about 6:05 - which bridge is this please?

Dyfi bridge.

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

So would it be just a bit further on from this bridge where the mechanic's garage is?

Yes. If it wasn't for the trees, you'd be able to see it in this video. Quarter of a mile at most.

 

[Cendlaetholwr]

Re: Dovey railway bridge and marsh - note that the cows aren't bothered, doesn't disrupt their grazing at all

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm trying to redress the balance wrt this part of the world. This is how it should be thought of and remembered.