Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #7 *M. Bridger guilty*

[italianWSfan]

Are there no traces of April at all in MBs car? If he abducted her, which I believe, there must be some fingerprints or at least a singe hair!?

 

[ann-other]

bbm - well that just can't be. That was just 2 hours after April disappeared.

Yes, got to be a mistake hence my comment of many hours passing. The tests were done at 9pm after his arrest which had to be on the 2nd October.

 

[Elainera]

Are there no traces of April at all in MBs car? If he abducted her, which I believe, there must be some fingerprints or at least a singe hair!?

There were some childsize fingerprints that couldn't be machted. I understood it to mean, they could have been from April or not. Inconclusive.

If she was however lying down and dead (or dying), there wouldn't be any fingerprints. The forensic analysis of the interior of the car supports MB's claims. The forensic analysis of the exterior doesn't.

 

[Elainera]

Yes, got to be a mistake hence my comment of many hours passing. The tests were done at 9pm after his arrest which had to be on the 2nd October.

How long does it take for alcohol to pass the body completely? If he stopped drinking some time in the night/early morning of Oct 2 would it be all gone by 9pm?

 

[jigzy]

IMO:
This guy is just so cold and calculating. He really doesn't give a damn for anyone. Self preservation is his primary goal. He explained that he had been foraging for mushrooms, providing a plausible explanation for how any traces of earth may/ may not have been found under his fingernails (I don't know if any were). He gives a seemingly plausible account of how April's DNA might have ended up on his genitals, by saying he had needed to urinate after supposedly picking up her crushed body. He doesn't seem to remember what he DID, yet is CERTAIN of what he would not have done, like burning the body. He said that he had been out all night searching, which would account for any neighbours noticing his vehicle missing from his driveway. He thinks he's covering everything so well, yet slips with comments such as "sticking with my story".

I would bet that the disposal of the body took place during the night many miles away from any of the areas searched. Did cadaver dogs ever work on his vehicle? I would be interested to know.

So many odd things about this case. Misinformation/misunderstanding of location of site of the incident on the Bryn-y-gog estate meaning that the exact spot did not come under intensive scrutiny. Eye problem aside, the fact that PJ did NOT search. The way the mother of the witness questioned the child, showing images of the possible vehicle rather than leaving it to the LE professionals. The info about the eye colouring that could not have been seen at dusk. The reliability of the witness, given who she is. And if I were to go into rumours locally, I would go on and on.

I said early on that the LE were looking for small evidence scattered wide. I just think they haven't been looking in the right places, possibly due to finding no evidence of her remains in the vehicle. They must have been going on the assumption that the disposal took place by foot, particularly helped along by CS's testimony of seeing him emerging by the river holding a black bag, therefore more localised searching was focused on.

Logic tells me that if there is absolutely no sign of the dead body having been in the KNOWN vehicle (and I would only believe this if Eddie and Keela or similar trained dogs had been involved and ruled it out), and no body found in the search area despite intensive searching, then either he carried her body up the hill to the mine shaft (and it is irretrievable), or there is another vehicle or person, or both, also involved that we do not know about.

The way he says that his story of crushing her would be proven if they ever found the body smacks of Gerry McCann's "find the body and prove we killed her" - in other words, you won't ever find the body.

Just my own thoughts right now.

 

[ann-other]

How long does it take for alcohol to pass the body completely? If he stopped drinking some time in the night/early morning of Oct 2 would it be all gone by 9pm?

If he had stopped by 9pm the previous night to do whatever he did - probably yes but it will all depend on his tolerance level. Obviously he was a big drinker but his memory seems pretty lucid about what happened initially regarding April. I would be interested to know if he experienced severe withdrawal symptoms after his arrest

 

[italianWSfan]

The following post could be graphic for some, sorry for that.

Obviously I don't know, but in my opinion if MB was drunk, he could not have done such a "good job" getting rid of the body and cleaning up.
Although a body of a 5 year old would be small, it is still quite difficult to get rid of every trace of it...
So, what could he have done to April?
I dont doubt for a minute that he sexually assaulted the poor girl. :furious:
There are hints that he burned her in his oven. For doing that, he must have dismembered her before. But where?
Could it all have happened it the living room, in front of the stove, as forensic expert suggested, judging by the blood on the underside of the carpet? He probably threw the knife he used in the stove later, to get rid of as much evidence as possible.
Then, it would be impossible to burn bones completely in an ordinary stove, because that procedure would need much more heat.
So he would have taken rest of the bones out of the stove. And then?
First, he could have put everything in the black bin bag, walk around in bright daylight and just throw it in the river like that.
Second, he could have taken everything to a mine shaft and dispose of it in there.
I have never seen a mine shaft in my entire life. I have googled some pictures before. Many of the posters here wrote that in this case, it would be impossibe to find her... Why is that? Are they not accessible? Sorry if that is a stupid question, I just dont have any experience at all with mine shafts, mining, etc, because that sort of thing doesnt exist where I live.
Three, he could have buried it somewhere. One of the murder cases he reserched is about a poor girl who was buried alive in a bin bag.
Or, lastly, he could have done a bit of everything to minimise the possibility of any evidence of April being found.
I am also concerned about the fact that MB was in posession of a dog. :facepalm: Does anybody know if the dog got checked by forensic experts?
I dont want to think about it further. :facepalm:

:moo:

I cant wait to hear more about the trial.
It is just so awful. I really hope he gets what he deserves.
I was following this case from the beginning, April was abducted 2 days after my wedding.. I was so hoping that she would be found alive... I was so hoping she could come back to spend Christmas with her family.
Now almost a year has passed and they still have not found any trace of her. That is just tragic.

Thanks for all the updates everyone!

 

[Cherwell]

He doesn't seem to remember what he DID, yet is CERTAIN of what he would not have done.

That struck me too. It really undermines his claim of amnesia.

The reliability of the witness, given who she is. And if I were to go into rumours locally, I would go on and on.

You have the advantage on us! Do you mean that the identity of the witness is significant in some way, or just that she's very young?

I said early on that the LE were looking for small evidence scattered wide. I just think they haven't been looking in the right places, possibly due to finding no evidence of her remains in the vehicle. They must have been going on the assumption that the disposal took place by foot, particularly helped along by CS's testimony of seeing him emerging by the river holding a black bag, therefore more localised searching was focused on.

Yes, I'm afraid he must have cut the remains up into very small pieces and disposed of them in the river, where they would soon have been dispersed in the flood. It's what seems most likely.

 

[ann-other]

IMO:
The reliability of the witness, given who she is. And if I were to go into rumours locally, I would go on and on.

This is exactly why I mentioned MB's (reported) other two daughters and questioned their ages.

 

[Elainera]

If he had stopped by 9pm the previous night to do whatever he did - probably yes but it will all depend on his tolerance level. Obviously he was a big drinker but his memory seems pretty lucid about what happened initially regarding April. I would be interested to know if he experienced severe withdrawal symptoms after his arrest

I always wondered what police do when they arrest an addict who then experience severe withdrawal.

The following post could be graphic for some, sorry for that.

Obviously I don't know, but in my opinion if MB was drunk, he could not have done such a "good job" getting rid of the body and cleaning up.
Although a body of a 5 year old would be small, it is still quite difficult to get rid of every trace of it...
So, what could he have done to April?
I dont doubt for a minute that he sexually assaulted the poor girl. :furious:
There are hints that he burned her in his oven. For doing that, he must have dismembered her before. But where?
Could it all have happened it the living room, in front of the stove, as forensic expert suggested, judging by the blood on the underside of the carpet? He probably threw the knife he used in the stove later, to get rid of as much evidence as possible.
Then, it would be impossible to burn bones completely in an ordinary stove, because that procedure would need much more heat.
So he would have taken rest of the bones out of the stove. And then?
First, he could have put everything in the black bin bag, walk around in bright daylight and just throw it in the river like that.
Second, he could have taken everything to a mine shaft and dispose of it in there.
I have never seen a mine shaft in my entire life. I have googled some pictures before. Many of the posters here wrote that in this case, it would be impossibe to find her... Why is that? Are they not accessible? Sorry if that is a stupid question, I just dont have any experience at all with mine shafts, mining, etc, because that sort of thing doesnt exist where I live.
Three, he could have buried it somewhere. One of the murder cases he reserched is about a poor girl who was buried alive in a bin bag.
Or, lastly, he could have done a bit of everything to minimise the possibility of any evidence of April being found.
I am also concerned about the fact that MB was in posession of a dog. :facepalm: Does anybody know if the dog got checked by forensic experts?
I dont want to think about it further. :facepalm:

:moo:

I cant wait to hear more about the trial.
It is just so awful. I really hope he gets what he deserves.
I was following this case from the beginning, April was abducted 2 days after my wedding.. I was so hoping that she would be found alive... I was so hoping she could come back to spend Christmas with her family.
Now almost a year has passed and they still have not found any trace of her. That is just tragic.

Thanks for all the updates everyone!

bbm - yes I thought about that too. The dog was afaik never mentioned though.

 

[Alyce]

IMO:
This guy is just so cold and calculating. He really doesn't give a damn for anyone. Self preservation is his primary goal. He explained that he had been foraging for mushrooms, providing a plausible explanation for how any traces of earth may/ may not have been found under his fingernails (I don't know if any were). He gives a seemingly plausible account of how April's DNA might have ended up on his genitals, by saying he had needed to urinate after supposedly picking up her crushed body. He doesn't seem to remember what he DID, yet is CERTAIN of what he would not have done, like burning the body. He said that he had been out all night searching, which would account for any neighbours noticing his vehicle missing from his driveway. He thinks he's covering everything so well, yet slips with comments such as "sticking with my story".

I would bet that the disposal of the body took place during the night many miles away from any of the areas searched. Did cadaver dogs ever work on his vehicle? I would be interested to know.

So many odd things about this case. Misinformation/misunderstanding of location of site of the incident on the Bryn-y-gog estate meaning that the exact spot did not come under intensive scrutiny. Eye problem aside, the fact that PJ did NOT search. The way the mother of the witness questioned the child, showing images of the possible vehicle rather than leaving it to the LE professionals. The info about the eye colouring that could not have been seen at dusk. The reliability of the witness, given who she is. And if I were to go into rumours locally, I would go on and on.

I said early on that the LE were looking for small evidence scattered wide. I just think they haven't been looking in the right places, possibly due to finding no evidence of her remains in the vehicle. They must have been going on the assumption that the disposal took place by foot, particularly helped along by CS's testimony of seeing him emerging by the river holding a black bag, therefore more localised searching was focused on.

Logic tells me that if there is absolutely no sign of the dead body having been in the KNOWN vehicle (and I would only believe this if Eddie and Keela or similar trained dogs had been involved and ruled it out), and no body found in the search area despite intensive searching, then either he carried her body up the hill to the mine shaft (and it is irretrievable), or there is another vehicle or person, or both, also involved that we do not know about.

The way he says that his story of crushing her would be proven if they ever found the body smacks of Gerry McCann's "find the body and prove we killed her" - in other words, you won't ever find the body.

Just my own thoughts right now.

BBM

Totally agree with everything you have written here. I have always believed that MB put AJs body ( or rather the remains, such as bones ) into a mine shaft, where he knew full well that it would never be found.
And he does so remind me of McCann and his find the body comment.

 

[Neurotripsy]

@DarrenLittleSky:

Trial of Mark Bridger now hearing from forensic anthropologist Dr Julie Roberts #apriljones

Expert says the burnt fragments found in Mark Bridger's fireplace are bone #apriljones

Expert says four of the bone fragments are from the cranium, it's not possible to say where the fifth fragment is from #apriljones

Expert says four of the fragments are human, not possible to say about the fifth fragment #apriljones

Expert: "very strong evidence" that three fragments are human skull, and "strong" evidence that 1 other is human skull #apriljones

Jury being shown pictures of the fragments while Dr Roberts explains why she believes them to be from the skull #apriljones

Dr Roberts: not possible to get a DNA profile from first bone fragment, it was too badly burnt #apriljones

Dr Roberts says marks on one fragment match those normally found on the skull of a child aged around 6yrs #apriljones

Dr Roberts: 2nd fragment also from a "younger individual" #apriljones

Dr Roberts: In total 11 fragments were recovered #apriljones


@skymarkwhite:

Dr Roberts says 4 of 5 "bone" fragments in Briger's fireplace were burnt at temperatures up to 700c - 5th fragment slightly less burnt


@skynewsnorth:

Mark Bridger looking at images of bone fragments on his computer screen in the dock. #apriljones


@ChrisMRiches:

#apriljones Experts compared one fragment with skull bones from 40 different animals such as dogs, cats, horse etc but agreed it was human.


@skynewsnorth:

Dr. Roberts said: We were aware if the impact evidence like this on a case and a family. We wanted to make absolutely certain #apriljones


@skymarkwhite:

Dr Roberts said if a whole skull had been cremated she would expect to have found other fragments, particularly from the teeth #AprilJones


@skynewsnorth:

Member of jury crying as evidence about bones presented in court. #apriljones

Expert tells court she believes bone was put into fire as fragments rather than a complete head. #apriljones


@skymarkwhite:

Dr Roberts said part of her previous experience included anthropological studies on remains of child victims in Bosnia #AprilJones


@ChrisMRiches:

#apriljones Dr Roberts believes the fragments were placed in the fire possibly as a clean up process.


@DarrenLittleSky:

Dr Roberts now being cross examined with evidence from another expert who does not agree with some of her findings #apriljones


@ChrisMRiches:

#apriljones Defence expert Dr Black claims Dr Roberts "succumbed to the prosecution fallacy" - looking for what you are told us there.


@DarrenLittleSky:

Dr Roberts denies being swayed by knowing about the case prior to doing the tests, insists that 1 fragment matches a 6yr old #apriljones

Dr Roberts agrees the bone fragment and her example are slightly different but says that's not unusual #apriljones

Dr Roberts says her conclusion was based her own knowledge and histology evidence from another expert #apriljones


@skynewsnorth:

Defence barrister cross-examining expert witness and suggesting that the bone samples are not human. #apriljones


@ChrisMRiches:

#apriljones Defence barrister Brendan Kelly QC agrees the fragments are burnt bone but claims there is not "strong evidence" it is human.


@DarrenLittleSky:

Next witness is Linda Ainscough, forensic anthropologist #apriljones

Expert was given the contents of MB's fire, did a fingertip search and found four pieces of what she thought were bone #apriljones

The contents were then sieved and searched again, found "a further 12 pieces on bone" #apriljones

Of the smaller fragments: 2 are more consistent with being from cranium, 6 from the neck and below, rest not possible to say #apriljones

Although expert says not possible to say if smaller fragments of bone are human or not, they're too small #apriljones

Expert says they also found a fragment of what appeared to be bone from the bath, says looks to be from skull #apriljones

Cannot say if it's human or not, the fragment appears not to be burnt, was found in "bath plug trap", #apriljones

Expert asked about possible "confirmation bias" in her report, says she was "surprised to find the bone" in the exhibits #apriljones

Next witness is Prof Holger Schutkowski, an expert on human cremated remains #apriljones

Expert says one fragment from the fire is from someone "of a younger age", consistent with someone in childhood #apriljones

Expert says another fragment is also human skull #apriljones


Lengthier live updates C&Pd here.

 

[Elainera]

My God what did he do?? Smash her head to pieces with a hammer? (sorry graphic) This is so horrendous. What a horror. Poor little April

 

[Sarahlou]

My God what did he do?? Smash her head to pieces with a hammer? (sorry graphic) This is so horrendous. What a horror. Poor little April

That is a horrifying thought. Especially if that was how he killed her. Ugh. I'm hoping he did that after she was dead as a way of getting rid of her body more easily. I guess we'll never know how he killed her.

 

[Perodicticus potto]

Yes, veggie, it's all very well them picking holes, but the fact remains that what she witnessed led the search directly to MB. And since he admits that she was in his car and that he was "responsible for her death", it seems like a massive coincidence if the child invented it all.

Just had an odd thought - what if the child were told what to say by an adult who knew (or strongly suspected) MB was involved, but didn't want to say so personally?

 

[Elainera]

I think today the defence was quite good at installing doubt into the testimony of the forensic experts. But still, what other explanation is there that bones were found in his home? Even if it can't be 100% proven that they were human. Her blood was positively identified, that can't be explained away.

 

[Neurotripsy]

@DarrenLittleSky:

Prof Schutkowski now being cross examined #apriljones

Prof Schutkowski is explaining why he believes some of the bone fragments are from a child #apriljones


@skynewsnorth:

Next expert: Prof Christina Cathaneo from University of Milan. Specialist in study of human remains. #apriljones

Prof. Cathaneo has worked on cases of bodies being burnt in organised crime in Italy #apriljones

Bridger briefing his legal representative from dock as Prof Cattaneo gives evidence. #apriljones

Witness describes difference between animals and humans in pattern of bone structure. #apriljones


@DarrenLittleSky:

Prof Cattaneo explaining the theory of her work, now talking about the specific fragments from the case #apriljones

Prof Cattaneo says bone is human, no non human structures present #apriljones


@NewsAndyD:

#AprilJones Professor Christina Cattaneo says the bone is consistent with human bone

#AprilJones Professor Christina Cattaneo now being cross examined.

#AprilJones we're going to hear from the first defence witness, about the bone evidence. The Judge wants to keep all the evidence together

#AprilJones Defence call Professor Sue Black.

#AprilJones in an initial statement, Prof Black agrees that the fragments were bone, but couldn't confirm whether human or non-human

#AprilJones Prof Black questions how other experts came to the conclusion that bones are human.


@ChrisMRiches:

#apriljones Prof Black said of some if the fragments there is "no scientific evidence" to say they are either human or child's skull.

#apriljones Prof Black says prosecution experts have displayed "confirmation bias" by looking for evidence to confirm an initial conclusion

#apriljones Prof Black said to defence QC Brendan Kelly: "If you go looking for faces in the clouds you will find them."


@NewsAndyD:

#AprilJones Professor Black now being cross-examined by the prosecution, Elwen Evans QC

#AprilJones Prof Black says that some of the fragments, could be human.


@DarrenLittleSky:

Defence asked if the fragments could be an antler - expert says that's "unlikely" #apriljones


Lengthier live updates C&Pd here.

 

[veggiefan]

BBM

Totally agree with everything you have written here. I have always believed that MB put AJs body ( or rather the remains, such as bones ) into a mine shaft, where he knew full well that it would never be found.

I'm not so sure. Remains dropped into a mineshaft could be seen by lowering a miniature camera down the shaft. Remains that are burned to ashes and then dispatched into a fast-flowing river, that just happens to be in full flood at the bottom of the garden, are very unlikely to be found.

 

[Alyce]

My God what did he do?? Smash her head to pieces with a hammer? (sorry graphic) This is so horrendous. What a horror. Poor little April

Was exactly what I was thinking as I read those tweets - how can any human being treat another in this way

 

[ann-other]

I am amazed that a wood burner stove could reach the temperatures suggested.