Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #7 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Alyce]

Just another thought as still not convinced we have heard everything somehow and hope I am not right with this thought. 7 year old out playing with AJ (would love to know exactly if any connection to AJ, family or ex's) To go back to point, the friend was older and as kids are, or told to be, was she made to feel responsible for looking after her younger friend? Did the friend feel responsible for her and if AJ 'suddenly' disappeared but she actually didn't see much, could she, in her own eyes have 'made it seem better' ? Apologies if that doesn't make sense!

I dont think there is a family connection with the child witness.

Very good point re the witness being older and feeling responsible. We never heard the words about ** it's ok, I know them ** quoted at the trial did we, which makes me wonder if this was something said later by an adult on behalf of the child ?

 

[jigzy]

I thought the testimony was that she opened the door and climbed in, apologies if not


certainly the words attributed * its ok i know them* could point to more than one person but I doubt it, no one saw two people in that car

But if someone pulled the catch on the door on the inside as she grabbed the handle from the outside it would indeed appear as if she opened it. Jmo, but that would perhaps explain how it appeared that she opened the door herself.

 

[jigzy]

If there was someone with him, why wouldn't MB say so, and blame everything on the other person?

If the other person was also a child. Just a thought.

 

[Elainera]

you cannot have a crystal clear memory when under the influence of obscene amounts of alcohol IMO, and as I posted earlier, his past lies are specific to him and his life and relationships, not known as a liar in general about anything and everything, having said that, however drunk one is IMO you would remember at some stage such an event, that he cant even remember roughly where he went to put her body is a bit odd i agree

It's possible. Since MB's memory loss is so strongly disputed I read up on the different types of amnesia that fit what he is describing:

Korsakoff's syndrome can result from long-term alcoholism or malnutrition. It is caused by brain damage due to a vitamin B1 deficiency and will be progressive if alcohol intake and nutrition pattern are not modified. Other neurological problems are likely to be present in combination with this type of Amnesia. Korsakoff's syndrome is also known to be connected with confabulation.

There are six major symptoms of Korsakoff's syndrome:

anterograde amnesia
retrograde amnesia, severe memory loss
confabulation, that is, invented memories which are then taken as true due to gaps in memory sometimes associated with blackouts
meager content in conversation
lack of insight
apathy - the patients lose interest in things quickly and generally appear indifferent to change.

These symptoms are caused by a deficiency of thiamine (vitamin B1). Thiamine is essential for the carboxylation of of pyruvate and deficiency during this metabolic process is what is thought to cause damage to the medial thalamus and mammillary bodies of the posterior hypothalamus as well as generalized cerebral atrophy. These brain regions are all parts of the limbic system, which is heavily involved in emotion and memory.

A blackout is a phenomenon caused by the intake of an alcoholic beverage or other substance in which long term memory creation is impaired or there is a complete inability to recall the past. Blackouts are frequently described as having effects similar to that of anterograde amnesia, in which the subject cannot recall any events after the event that caused amnesia.

Dissociative amnesia results from a psychological cause as opposed to direct damage to the brain caused by head injury, physical trauma or disease, which is known as organic amnesia. Dissociative amnesia can include:

Repressed memory - refers to the inability to recall information, usually about stressful or traumatic events in persons' lives, such as a violent attack or disaster. The memory is stored in long-term memory, but access to it is impaired because of psychological defense mechanisms. Persons retain the capacity to learn new information and there may be some later partial or complete recovery of memory.

Amnesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Korsakoff's syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(alcohol-related_amnesia)

All these can lead to him not being able to recall anything after the alleged accident. It's not unheard of. It's possible that he will remember at some point in future. (given that he is not simply making it up now that he can't remember)

 

[Cappuccino]

If the other person was also a child. Just a thought.

I'd still have to wonder why the child hasn't gone and told an adult by now.

 

[Cherwell]

The childs testimony has been questionable vis a vis sliding doors, April trying the back doors, what back doors? opening the door and climbing in which was said to be dubious as it was very hard to do so as said by mechanic

I think I said this earlier: Children usually travel in the back seats, so it would be natural for April to reach for a handle at the back before realising that there was none. Just because there were no back doors doesn't mean she didn't look for one, and that's what the witness would have seen.

Then as someone else has said, there's no need for her to have opened the door by herself as an adult inside the car could easily reach across and open it for her. Another point that should have been made by the prosecution.

 

[George Gently]

I would have thought that a 7 year old girl who had seen her younger friend crushed by a Land Rover and then driven off would have been in a state of hysterics and would have blurted that out to the first person she saw instead of saying she got happily into the car.

 

[Cherwell]

I would have thought that a 7 year old girl who had seen her younger friend crushed by a Land Rover and then driven off would have been in a state of hysterics and would have blurted that out to the first person she saw instead of saying she got happily into the car.

Well, exactly, George. It's not likely to have happened silently either.

It's difficult without seeing and hearing her testimony, and knowing everything that was said, but I believe that she tried her best to explain what happened. Yes, she got a bit carried away with her description and embroidered a bit (eye colour) but she was honest and admitted that she'd made that bit up. Can't see why she wouldn't have retracted anything else that wasn't right.

 

[edgedweller]

The childs testimony has been questionable vis a vis sliding doors, April trying the back doors, whatback doors? opening the door and climbing in which was said to be dubious as it was very hard to do so as said by mechanic

But wouldn't it be instinctive for a child of five to try the back doors (even if there was no obvious handle) - and then MB could've leaned over and opened the passenger door for her from the inside?

*If* he did indeed crush her with his car (which I don't believe for a minute), it would've been quite tricky to get her onto the back seat if there are no back doors. Also, to 'crush' her with the car, wouldn't she have already had to be laying on the ground? His story doesn't add up, IMO. The massive clean-up operation, destruction of virtually *every* piece of her body, DNA, hair, clothes etc... he doesn't remember ANY of that? Lies, all lies.

 

[edgedweller]

I still cant work out what he was able to say that encouraged AJ to get into his car and leave her beloved bike behind ?

Sadly, children are very easily persuaded. I'm sure my children, despite being told not to ever go in someone's car that they don't know, or to talk to strangers, would be easily tempted by a bag of sweets, or the promise of puppies/kittens etc, especially if it was someone who they vaguely knew. They just don't remember things they are told! He could've said "don't worry I'll ring your mum and tell her where your bike is while we go and see the puppies/buy some lollies, then I'll drop you home". Who knows, the sleepover ruse could've been tried again - my kids love the idea of a sleepover.

 

[Cherwell]

Who knows, the sleepover ruse could've been tried again - my kids love the idea of a sleepover.

That's where I'd put my money. She would almost certainly recognise him as "S and C's Dad", and his children are cousins to her own half-sisters, so it could have been pretty persuasive.

ETA This is all speculation, of course, and strictly against the judge's instructions. It's all very well to be told to consider only the facts and evidence that have been brought out in court, but without speculation one can't fully consider what is plausible. :banghead: In this case I think those family relationships may well be a factor, but I'm not sure how much of the background was covered in court.

 

[Neurotripsy]

@NewsAndyD:

#AprilJones Judge begins by outlining April's immediate family

#AprilJones Judge saying how Bridger had played darts with Coral (April's mum) some 17 years ago.

#AprilJones Paul (April's dad) knew Bridger as they were both in relationships with two sisters

#AprilJones Judge reminding jury how Coral had said April would have known Bridger by sight, but wouldn't have got into his car by choice

#AprilJones Judge now outlining the evidence about events of the 1st October

#AprilJones Bridger text his boss on the morning of the 1st, asking for the day off to "get my head around things"

#AprilJones Bridger sat in the dock, blue shirt, dark blue tie, wearing the hearing loop ear phones, looking straight forward

#AprilJones jury being told about Mark Bridger's behaviour at a parents evening

#AprilJones jury hearing about the various eyewitnesses who allege to have seen Mark Bridger after the parents evening in Machynlleth


@NickMartinSKY:

#apriljones - April's parents Paul and Coral are sitting on the end of the front row of the public gallery, holding hands.


@NewsAndyD:

#AprilJones Judge now going through the evidence of some of the children

#AprilJones Judge outlining the evidence given by April's 7 year old best friend, who'd been riding her bike with April that night

#AprilJones she said she didn't know why April went with him, because her parents had told her not to

#AprilJones it was soon after the car had driven off, that April's brother came to call his sister in.

#AprilJones Judge says there were discrepancies between the description of the car she says she saw, and Mark Bridger's Land Rover

#AprilJones Officer who studied CCTV said Bridger's car did not come back to Machynlleth, after seen leaving at 19.21

#AprilJones woman from Ceinws says she saw Mr Bridger was reversing onto his drive at around 20.34

#AprilJones Judge now outlining alleged sightings of Bridger on the day after April's disappearance

@AprilJones Jury were told by an officer, it was the largest UK police search in history. "If April was in area she would have been found"

#AprilJones eyewitnesses say Bridger told them he didn't find out about April until 9.30am, but had been out searching all night

#AprilJones "he seemed very clean and tidy for someone who'd been searching in the woods"

#AprilJones Garage owner said a child would have had difficulties opening the doors of the Land Rover

#AprilJones Mark Bridger crying as the judge reads what he told police when he was arrested. "It was an accident, I crushed her with my car"

#AprilJones officers who first searched Bridger's house said it was uncomfortably warm, with a strong smell of detergent.


@NickMartinSKY:

#apriljones - judge tells jury he will sum up the forensic evidence next, but sends them for a break first. Adjourned




Detailed live updates posted over on Pastebin.

 

[Redgoblin]

Just going quickly back to the finger prints and lack thereof, it was pointed out by the pros that MB had wet wipes in his land rover, he may of used those to wipe down the interior.

 

[ann-other]

Interesting that the judge finds it necessary to remind the jury of family trees and relationships?

 

[sleuth-d-]

That's where I'd put my money. She would almost certainly recognise him as "S and C's Dad", and his children are cousins to her own half-sisters, so it could have been pretty persuasive.

ETA This is all speculation, of course, and strictly against the judge's instructions. It's all very well to be told to consider only the facts and evidence that have been brought out in court, but without speculation one can't fully consider what is plausible. :banghead: In this case I think those family relationships may well be a factor, but I'm not sure how much of the background was covered in court.

so much speculation here... even by the prosecution. no body; no weapon; no witness [to any death]. for the jury to find in favour of murder, in itself requires a fair chunk of speculation imo.

 

[edgedweller]

So to acquit they have to have 'reasonable doubt'?

But how else did April die? Even if he *did* run her over, he made no effort to get her medical help, didn't call an ambulance, didn't dial 999, didn't do anything except drive round panicking and drinking. In my eyes, that's as good as murder (but not in the law's, I know). Her poor parents - they will never really know for sure what happened to their little girl. If I were them I would hope it was an accident - but even so, they will never find her body and be able to bury her decently. Too much of a coincidence with the child , the 'sleepover' chats, the google searches, and the total destruction of her body and any evidence she ever existed (apart from the large amounts of blood of course). IMO he's a nasty killer who has had a massive remorse trip once he realised they'd caught up with him.

 

[veggiefan]

Just going quickly back to the finger prints and lack thereof, it was pointed out by the pros that MB had wet wipes in his land rover, he may of used those to wipe down the interior.

Forensics said there was no sign of a "clean-up" in the car.

 

[sleuth-d-]

the non 'cleaned-up' but nevertheless 'clean' car is most difficult to comprehend. as both sides are saying she was in the car... even if she was lying on a rug, cover or similar... surely a fibre, a thread, or a hair, or something would be found... even if no fingerprints could be established. the defence even said the coat was likely to shed fibres...

 

[Neurotripsy]

@NewsAndyD:

#AprilJones after a short break the Judge is telling the jury about the forensic evidence

#AprilJones Jury will be sent out to start deliberations after their lunch break later

#AprilJones experts agree that blood found in Bridger's house was April's

#aprilJones No forensic evidence linking April to Mark Bridger's car were found

#AprilJones no evidence that Mark Bridger's land rover had been in collision with, or run over, anyone.

#AprilJones judge moving on the to "unchallenged" computer evidence. A "library" of images

#AprilJones now moving on to evidence of bone fragments found in the fire of Mark Bridger's rented cottage, Mount Pleasant

#AprilJones jury told five fragments of bone found burned in the fire were human.

#AprilJones an expert said one fragment was from a human child skull

#AprilJones jury being told Bridger's account of an accident, and how he can't remember what he did with April's body

#AprilJones jury breaking for 45 minutes before the judge will then finish summing up the defence case.


Detailed live updates posted over on Pastebin.

 

[ann-other]

As I intimated before, the evidence leads to 'suggest' she was never in that car despite both sides saying so, but that somehow she ended up at MB's house.