GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Carriep]

What makes you think the judge didn't say that?
Seems entirely reasonable.

He shouldn't get to say whatever he wants and it stand, but then not be put under scrutiny by the prosecution

What makes me think he didn't say it is that it would be so extreme a direction.

There is no statutory provision or case law that says whenever a defendant refuses to submit to cross-examination every single word of their evidence-in-chief must always be completely and utterly ignored. Considerations of degree and effect and circumstances must be taken into account.

And anyway look at how it has been reported: "(the judge said) he would direct the jury to give minimal weight to the evidence Gordon has already put forward."

The judge said basically that he would go to the absolute extreme, and he said so before he'd heard any submissions from any of the three parties regarding what direction he should give? That's unlikely IMO. Judges don't do that. They may say they are "minded". But they know the parties have a right to be heard.

See too the sentence "Judge Lucraft then clarified if Gordon’s evidence would continue".

It sounds to me that Tristan's cat may have got onto his keyboard. JMO

 

[pokerowan]

What makes me think he didn't say it is that it would be so extreme a direction.

There is no statutory provision or case law that says whenever a defendant refuses to submit to cross-examination every single word of their evidence-in-chief must always be completely and utterly ignored. Considerations of degree and effect and circumstances must be taken into account.

And anyway look at how it has been reported: "(the judge said) he would direct the jury to give minimal weight to the evidence Gordon has already put forward."

The judge said basically that he would go to the absolute extreme, and he said so before he'd heard any submissions from any of the three parties regarding what direction he should give? That's unlikely IMO. Judges don't do that. They may say they are "minded". But they know the parties have a right to be heard.

See too the sentence "Judge Lucraft then clarified if Gordon’s evidence would continue".

It sounds to me that Tristan's cat may have got onto his keyboard. JMO

Ignored? Minimal weight can stil be some weight. I think you may be reading into this as the extreme. Either way, we're likely to get clarity on this (and anything additional) next week.

 

[jackal67]

Sure but he is the defendant and if he can present a version of events in which he hasn't committed either of the two crimes he's charged with, and the jury can't be sure his version is false, they have to acquit him. What he says doesn't have to be verified as true. Also I am not sure what the crown might conceivably prove him to be lying about if they cross-examined him, that they couldn't prove with testimony from other witnesses.

I still think the jury will be influenced by both of them refusing to be cross examined. What are they afraid of if they are innocent surely they should be happy to answer questions It is completely one sided otherwise. If I were a juror I would certainly be dubious.

 

[Legally Bland]

I don't know what scroll and roll means - although I question the rhetorical value of breaking into verse (does it mean "shut up"?) - or how often Kirk's performance is reviewed, or whether he was in court, but it seems IMO that Kirk has indeed misquoted the judge or at least quoted him out of context.

The authority I've found for my opinion is as follows, but I'll read any relevant citations that can be found with interest:

s35 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994:

Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994

An Act to make further provision in relation to criminal justice (including employment in the prison service); to amend or extend the criminal law and powers for preventing crime and enforcing that law; to amend the Video Recordings Act 1984; and for purposes connected with those purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

"the court or jury, in determining whether the accused is guilty of the offence charged, may draw such inferences as appear proper from the failure of the accused to give evidence or his refusal, without good cause, to answer any question"

IMO a direction to ignore absolutely every single thing a defendant has said under oath (as if he had been completely invisible and inaudible) would be so extreme that it would be unlikely to stand up at appeal. JMO, but based on reading the statute and looking for other authorities and not on how many years a newspaper reporter has been newspaper reporting.

Anyway, this all seems very live to me - given that MG has said he will answer questions that are to do with the case. ("Prone" was an odd choice of word IMO by a party who has so far appeared to be highly articulate IMO.) Perhaps the CPS's intended questions are in the process of being vetted, as MG's questions were, and MG will go back into the witness box.

I was scrolling and rolling but just realised you're being serious. You honestly believe uncontested evidence should have the same weight as if it had been contested? Nonsense. Of course it should be given minimal weight. And there's no grounds for an appeal here.

I think what you're mistaken about is the difference between not giving evidence (which I think your quote refers to), and giving evidence but not letting it be cross-examined.

Absolutely crackers.

 

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Yellowbelly]

www.thelawpages.com


View attachment 589154

So, is this another defence witness, or the prosecution's new evidence? Hopefully there's a few court reporters in attendance so we can find out.

 

[GreekGal]

Constance Marten’s partner attacked officers on post-natal ward, court told

Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria who died in a tent in early 2023.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[Alyce]

So, is this another defence witness, or the prosecution's new evidence? Hopefully there's a few court reporters in attendance so we can find out.

Perhaps they are recalling witnesses ?

see below





www.thelawpages.com

 

[jackal67]

Perhaps they are recalling witnesses ?

see below





www.thelawpages.com


View attachment 589174

Wonder if this is the new evidence?

 

[Skigh]

She asked the father several times for his name and date of birth before he gave the identity of James Amer who was born on April 31 1987.

How funny!!!

 

[jackal67]

She asked the father several times for his name and date of birth before he gave the identity of James Amer who was born on April 31 1987.

How funny!!!

Who did?

 

[dotr]

Who did?

rbbm.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/national/25194049.constance-martens-partner-attacked-officers-post-natal-ward-court-told/

''Giving evidence, Det Sgt Jones said they had gone to the hospital after a baby was born in the morning and medical staff raised concerns over the identity of the parents.

She asked the father several times for his name and date of birth before he gave the identity of James Amer who was born on April 31 1987.

The officer said: “I asked him to confirm his date of birth and he replied yeah. At this time I realised there are only 30 days in April.

“He started rocking backwards and forwards in a chair and acted confused muttering under his breath several times.

“I explained I wanted to do some checks on him. He then shouted out.

“He then shot up from his seat. He starts pacing backwards and forwards. He was clenching his fists and his behaviour completely changed.''

 

[Carriep]

Constance Marten’s partner attacked officers on post-natal ward, court told

Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria who died in a tent in early 2023.

www.shropshirestar.com

"Giving evidence, Det Sgt Jones said they had gone to the hospital after a baby was born in the morning and medical staff raised concerns over the identity of the parents."

I wonder what this means.

This case is now wide open IMO. Anything could happen, before we get to the stage in CM's case, when she reopens it, when her parents' use of private detectives was testified about last time.

I expect MG will be given a chance to testify on the new evidence even if he wasn't cross-examined. After all, this is prosecution evidence. (That said, it's not clear from the press reports how it is supposed to support the charges.)

The alleged event was six years before early 2023. Which number child does this make it?

(Edit: the answer appears to be their first child, going by this report:
Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care
This is the same birth when there was the "Irish traveller" story. Why the false names? They can't have had any children taken away before if this was their first, although it's possible of course that it wasn't his first or her first - but it was the first they had with each other, according to reports.)

PAVA gas is synthetic pepper. A comparison with CS gas is here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7d806de5274a676d532721/comparison-sprays-2414.pdf

 

[Alyce]

From @GreekGal link above ( post 1267 )

The partner of Constance Marten assaulted two female police officers at a maternity ward hours after she had given birth

On Tuesday, the court heard about a “strange” incident involving the couple in Wales hours after Marten had given birth to an older sibling six years before

Gordon had pleaded guilty to assaulting Pc Sian Beynon and Detective Sergeant Delma Jones during the course of their duties in 2017.

Giving evidence, Det Sgt Jones said they had gone to the hospital after a baby was born in the morning and medical staff raised concerns over the identity of the parents.

He started rocking backwards and forwards in a chair and acted confused muttering under his breath several times.

“I explained I wanted to do some checks on him. He then shouted out.“He then shot up from his seat. He starts pacing backwards and forwards. He was clenching his fists and his behaviour completely changed.

“My colleague Pc Beynon was standing by the door. He walked up to her and pushed her to one side.”

Having already assaulted Pc Beynon, the officers tried to restrain him and stop him from making good his “escape”,
“Mr Gordon had opened the door. He managed to free himself from our grip. He started running up to where his partner and baby was,” Det Sgt Jones said.
Gordon then went back into the corridor and tried to grab her again, causing her to fall to the floor, .

“We were telling him to calm down, to comply. Obviously we had concerns over where we were – there were babies and other people around. We were concerned what he was capable of.”

Det Sgt Jones said her colleague then deployed her Pava incapacitant spray at least twice.She added: “He was trying to escape while we were still holding onto him. We were asking him to calm down, stop resisting, but this had no effect whatsoever.”

She told jurors that she and her colleague were hit during the struggle before a new father stepped in to help.
“I left that incident being bruised. I had cuts on my hands. I can’t say he struck me directly but in his attempt to get away from us, I probably was struck.”


More at the link.....

Constance Marten’s partner attacked officers on post-natal ward, court told

Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria who died in a tent in early 2023.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[Alyce]

Judge Mark Lucraft KC, the Recorder of London, agreed that the past convictions could form part of the evidence as Marten and Gordon stand trial over the alleged manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria in 2023, when they went on the run from authorities.

Earlier, the court was told that a “memorandum of conviction” has been obtained from Llanelli magistrates court, showing Gordon pleaded guilty to two counts of assaulting a police officer in the course of their duty.

Mark Gordon 'attacked police officers in hospital after baby's birth'

Mark Gordon attacked police officers in the neo-natal ward of a hospital, trial hears

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

The Old Bailey trial was adjourned until Wednesday.

Constance Marten’s partner attacked officers on post-natal ward, court told

Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria who died in a tent in early 2023.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[Amaz0nia]

Another link here

https://www.wimbledonguardian.co.uk/news/national/25194049.constance-martens-partner-attacked-officers-post-natal-ward-court-told/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR5NfwP67K3wiGTzkii4kp1PzKz0i6_EG3Q9RXUXfby2g5pqoWusnCy148jl1w_aem_8LV7YVVV10UxNHeRUINVGg#

 

[Carriep]

Constance Marten’s partner attacked officers on post-natal ward, court told

Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria who died in a tent in early 2023.

www.shropshirestar.com

"Giving evidence, Det Sgt Jones said they had gone to the hospital after a baby was born in the morning and medical staff raised concerns over the identity of the parents.

She asked the father several times for his name and date of birth before he gave the identity of James Amer who was born on April 31 1987."

But...

Constance Marten trial: aristocrat ‘posed as Irish Traveller’

All four of her older children were put up for adoption because of fears of physical violence between her and Mark Gordon, court has been told

www.thetimes.com

"Marten described Gordon, who was using the name James Amer, as a friend whom she knew for around a month but was not the father of the child."

The reasons for these events - just to judge from the press reports - remain opaque.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Judge Mark Lucraft KC, the Recorder of London, agreed that the past convictions could form part of the evidence as Marten and Gordon stand trial over the alleged manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria in 2023, when they went on the run from authorities.

Earlier, the court was told that a “memorandum of conviction” has been obtained from Llanelli magistrates court, showing Gordon pleaded guilty to two counts of assaulting a police officer in the course of their duty.

Mark Gordon 'attacked police officers in hospital after baby's birth'

Mark Gordon attacked police officers in the neo-natal ward of a hospital, trial hears

www.standard.co.uk

He couldnt even get his dates right 31 April

 

[Skigh]

He couldnt even get his dates right 31 April

He should have chosen April 1st .