GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Nikynoo]

What makes you think her name isn’t Victoria? We usually get the real name of dead children but initials or false names for living children.

Because to believe that is to believe that CM was telling the truth about everything/most things.

 

[bbsaz]

Because to believe that is to believe that CM was teling the truth about everything/most things.

Good point actually. She even changed her own name on arrest to Arabella.
Wouldn't surprise me if Victoria's real name was kept secret between her and Mark as two fingers up to society/social services/police and media (IMO)

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Good point actually. She even changed her own name on arrest to Arabella.
Wouldn't surprise me if Victoria's real name was kept secret between her and Mark as two fingers up to society/social services/police and media (IMO)

I hadn't thought about this but I can imagine it now. We love our baby too much to let these monsters know her name.
If only they had shown that respect to Victoria in life and in death.

 

[Alyce]

Good point actually. She even changed her own name on arrest to Arabella.
Wouldn't surprise me if Victoria's real name was kept secret between her and Mark as two fingers up to society/social services/police and media (IMO)

This absolutely.

 

[iamshadow21]

Good point actually. She even changed her own name on arrest to Arabella.
Wouldn't surprise me if Victoria's real name was kept secret between her and Mark as two fingers up to society/social services/police and media (IMO)

Or maybe they never named her at all, and came up with Victoria on the spot when asked, because they knew it looked bad to never have called her anything.

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court

Daily Courtroom List for Friday 31 May 2024​

Court 5 COURT NOT SITTING​ FINAL 1 www.courtserve.net​

 

[Maryanna]

Because to believe that is to believe that CM was telling the truth about everything/most things.

If she lies about everything she can get away with, the baby was a boy.

PS Thelawpages.com were mentioning the jury going out every morning, but the court has sat on two days since last Thursday (when they said "Verdict to be taken" at 15:30), namely yesterday (unexpectedly, for reasons unknown) and today, and they haven't mentioned the jury on either of them.

 

[Alyce]

Jury have been sent home for the day​

The jury in the Old Bailey trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon, who are accused over the death of their baby, has been sent home.
Judge Mark Lucraft KC told them to return to resume deliberations on Monday.

Constance Marten trial: Jury retires to consider verdict in baby manslaughter case

Aristocrat and partner Mark Gordon denied killing their newborn Victoria while on the run from authorities

www.independent.co.uk

 

[bbsaz]

If she lies about everything she can get away with, the baby was a boy.

PS Thelawpages.com were mentioning the jury going out every morning, but the court has sat on two days since last Thursday (when they said "Verdict to be taken" at 15:30), namely yesterday (unexpectedly, for reasons unknown) and today, and they haven't mentioned the jury on either of them.

Didn't they take the available verdicts, before they knew they were dropping to 10 jurors? Ie let's have what you've got so far, before Juror 11 leaves. I assume it was the obvious verdicts, such a concealing a birth that were taken. And now they are thrashing out the trickier ones.

Imagine it was legal discussion yesterday, jury not required.
Today they were in and out because Fiona Beale was having her sentencing with the same judge. It did say that it was adjourned until 00.00 which is what it says when they jury goes out. And timings wise, it fitted with when Fiona Beale was getting her sentence.

 

[Maryanna]

Didn't they take the available verdicts, before they knew they were dropping to 10 jurors? Ie let's have what you've got so far, before Juror 11 leaves. I assume it was the obvious verdicts, such a concealing a birth that were taken. And now they are thrashing out the trickier ones.

Imagine it was legal discussion yesterday, jury not required.
Today they were in and out because Fiona Beale was having her sentencing with the same judge. It did say that it was adjourned until 00.00 which is what it says when they jury goes out. And timings wise, it fitted with when Fiona Beale was getting her sentence.

Before the week's break, it was saying "Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict" as the first item every day, but this morning as the first item it said "Trial (Part Heard) - Resume".

Did the judge direct that they had no defence to concealing a birth and perverting the course of justice and therefore the jury must convict on those two charges? I've seen that stated in another place where this case is being discussed, but can't recall it being stated in press reports. (I haven't listened to any podcasts though.)

 

[DianaWW]

Before the week's break, it was saying "Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict" as the first item every day, but this morning as the first item it said "Trial (Part Heard) - Resume".

Did the judge direct that they had no defence to concealing a birth and perverting the course of justice and therefore the jury must convict on those two charges? I've seen that stated in another place where this case is being discussed, but can't recall it being stated in press reports. (I haven't listened to any podcasts though.)

This was discussed in the podcast that talked about the judges directions. He didn’t say they had to be found guilty on both charges but when following the steps to get to a verdict for concealing the birth of a child and for child cruelty, there was no dispute on the first two steps for both of those charges. Or at least that’s how I understood it. There is a transcript available here:

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-the-jury-retires-01hwr7a0sgkgtec33hh13a8tc5

 

[Maryanna]

This was discussed in the podcast that talked about the judges directions. He didn’t say they had to be found guilty on both charges but when following the steps to get to a verdict for concealing the birth of a child and for child cruelty, there was no dispute on the first two steps for both of those charges. Or at least that’s how I understood it. There is a transcript available here:

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-the-jury-retires-01hwr7a0sgkgtec33hh13a8tc5

Thanks for this.

So on concealing the birth it seems that the charge turns - according to the judge's directions - on whether they secretly disposed of the body, to which CM's testimony that she was keeping it so it could be examined later is a defence. Whether the jury accept that defence is of course quite another matter. But if they're not sure it's untrue they should return a verdict of not guilty.

 

[iamshadow21]

If she lies about everything she can get away with, the baby was a boy.

PS Thelawpages.com were mentioning the jury going out every morning, but the court has sat on two days since last Thursday (when they said "Verdict to be taken" at 15:30), namely yesterday (unexpectedly, for reasons unknown) and today, and they haven't mentioned the jury on either of them.

Genetic testing at autopsy would have determined biological sex. But there's no test to prove whether she was lying about a name, so Victoria is what we have, which is better than just calling her 'baby'.

MOO

 

[CaptainNancy]

"to which CM's testimony that she was keeping it so it could be examined later is a defence. Whether the jury accept that defence is of course quite another matter. But if they're not sure it's untrue they should return a verdict of not guilty"

Interesting that they didn't tell police where Victoria was, through many minutes of heart rending questioning "where is your baby?" by police on arrest, OR in the days that followed when they were in custody.

 

[Maryanna]

"to which CM's testimony that she was keeping it so it could be examined later is a defence. Whether the jury accept that defence is of course quite another matter. But if they're not sure it's untrue they should return a verdict of not guilty"

Interesting that they didn't tell police where Victoria was, through many minutes of heart rending questioning "where is your baby?" by police on arrest, OR in the days that followed when they were in custody.

Yes - if the jurors take the view that hiding a body in a carrier bag in an allotment shed constitutes disposing of it, they should vote guilty.

 

[Telltale]

Yes - if the jurors take the view that hiding a body in a carrier bag in an allotment shed constitutes disposing of it, they should vote guilty.

It would have been a stronger defence if they'd told detectives where they'd stashed the bag.

Instead of stonewalling for 3 days while hundreds of police desperately searched every inch of that land. Haunted by the idea there was a newborn hidden away, dying by inches.

She had be found. A little rotten doll in a bag full of rubbish. They never said a dam n word.

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court

Daily Courtroom List for Monday 03 June 2024​

FINAL 1 Court 5 THE RECORDER OF LONDON​ SITTING AT 09:30 am Trial (Part Heard) T20237104 GORDON Mark A 01MP1072723 SUSWM CPS MARTEN Constance 01MP1072723 DTA, Reporting Restriction order imposed by the High Court - see section Trial Documents on DCS**, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 www.courtserve.net

 

[bbsaz]

Yes - if the jurors take the view that hiding a body in a carrier bag in an allotment shed constitutes disposing of it, they should vote guilty.

Disposing of a body isn't a charge against them.
Perverting the course of justice is. (Ie hiding her dead body for 3 days, whilst hundreds searched for her)

 

[Alyce]

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 09:58

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

​

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 09:58

www.thelawpages.com

Part heard? for a few minutes? Am I getting this right and now off until tomorrow?