GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

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  • #661
From the prosecution opening speech:

"This is not a family court, it is a criminal court. That decision was a lawful and a correct one.
You must, and this is important, therefore proceed in this trial on the basis that those four children were taken into care from these defendants lawfully and properly. If any attempt is made by the defendants in this trial to suggest anything to the contrary then that is something that you must and should ignore and it would be, we suggest, a deliberate distraction by them from the reality
."

I hope the media report the defence opening speech in which surely they will respond to this.

Also just on the strength of this, I reckon in the event of a guilty verdict this would be extremely likely to go to appeal.

A defendant is surely allowed to say that he carried out such and such an action because he believed that an action by a public official or judge was unlawful or improper. Otherwise it could go like this:

Counsel: "You did X?" (With "X" being an action that is not in itself unlawful.)
Witness: "Yes".
Counsel: "Why?"
Witness: "I'd like to tell you, but I'm not allowed to, or at least the Crown has said I should be ignored if I do".

That's not good justice.

Might it be to do with what is and isn't agreed evidence? I remember a lot of debate about this in the last trial, there's stuff they have all agreed as facts which they aren't meant to spend time arguing in this trial, I can't remember now what this debate centered on or around.
 
  • #662
Might it be to do with what is and isn't agreed evidence? I remember a lot of debate about this in the last trial, there's stuff they have all agreed as facts which they aren't meant to spend time arguing in this trial, I can't remember now what this debate centered on or around.
I take it to mean that the judgement of the family courts is not on trial here, and therefore any claim that they made a wrong or unlawful decision is not relevant. I.e this trial is in the context that the children were removed, as a matter of fact. Which they were. Not about arguing whether that was right or wrong.
 
  • #663
Yes, you're right. I don't remember either. Perhaps they haven't been sentenced yet?

ETA - It was reported in June last year Constance Marten and Mark Gordon found guilty of two charges

ETA again - this sky news article mentions the child cruelty charge - they were obviously not found guilty of this one, or was it dropped?Constance Marten and partner guilty of concealing birth of child and perverting course of justice
I dont think they were sentenced at the time-however all the time theyve been on remand will be taken off their final sentence as time served..i expect them to walk free because of this..
 
  • #664
  • #665
This whole case has been a bizarre circus IMO and it's quite baffling.

I guess CM could walk free following sentencing due to the amount of time already detained.
MG could be a different case as he breached other orders and could have been recalled to serve the rest of him time, however, even a significant amount of that has gone by and if his conduct has been good, the prisons are looking to clear people out not keep them in.
 
  • #666
Depends on the sentencing guidelines for the current charges, I suppose, if found guilty.
 
  • #667
  • #668
This whole case has been a bizarre circus IMO and it's quite baffling.

I guess CM could walk free following sentencing due to the amount of time already detained.
MG could be a different case as he breached other orders and could have been recalled to serve the rest of him time, however, even a significant amount of that has gone by and if his conduct has been good, the prisons are looking to clear people out not keep them in.
BBM
It doesn't bear thinking about!
Absolutely horrifying to think this could happen.
Where would the justice be for Baby V and those poor children.
IMO
 
  • #669
  • #670
  • #671

“However Francis Fitzgibbon KC, for Ms Marten, insisted what happened was “no crime but a terrible, tragic accident”.

He told the jury the infant died at just over two weeks old within a day or two of them pitching their tent in Sussex, after the “stressed and exhausted” mother fell asleep after breastfeeding.

He said it was “something that can happen anywhere when an exhausted breastfeeding mother may fall asleep on her newborn baby”.

“And then, consumed by grief and still wishing to avoid the world, her existence was reduced to scavenging for food and living in appalling conditions and she was unwilling to let go of the remains of the baby girl,” he added.

John Femi-Ola KC, for Mr Gordon, told the jury that “co-sleeping is not a crime” and disputed that the child was ever carried in a bag-for-life while she was alive.

He said: “It’s Mark Gordon’s case that Victoria was well cared for, well-loved and kept warm close to her mother. The fact that when she was found she was in a so-called onesie is not conclusive that is the only item of clothing she had.

“It is disputed that Victoria was ever carried in a bag-for-life whilst she was living. Carrying her in such a way after she had passed is altogether a different matter and it will be for you to decide whether there is some form of grieving reaction.

“You will need to consider their shock and grief after her death. They neglected themselves for weeks thereafter, but this is not an indication of how they cared for their child.”
 
  • #672
  • #673
A salmon coloured headscarf?! Sounds like we need the fashion police too.
 
  • #674

“However Francis Fitzgibbon KC, for Ms Marten, insisted what happened was “no crime but a terrible, tragic accident”.

He told the jury the infant died at just over two weeks old within a day or two of them pitching their tent in Sussex, after the “stressed and exhausted” mother fell asleep after breastfeeding.

He said it was “something that can happen anywhere when an exhausted breastfeeding mother may fall asleep on her newborn baby”.

“And then, consumed by grief and still wishing to avoid the world, her existence was reduced to scavenging for food and living in appalling conditions and she was unwilling to let go of the remains of the baby girl,” he added.

John Femi-Ola KC, for Mr Gordon, told the jury that “co-sleeping is not a crime” and disputed that the child was ever carried in a bag-for-life while she was alive.

He said: “It’s Mark Gordon’s case that Victoria was well cared for, well-loved and kept warm close to her mother. The fact that when she was found she was in a so-called onesie is not conclusive that is the only item of clothing she had.

“It is disputed that Victoria was ever carried in a bag-for-life whilst she was living. Carrying her in such a way after she had passed is altogether a different matter and it will be for you to decide whether there is some form of grieving reaction.

“You will need to consider their shock and grief after her death. They neglected themselves for weeks thereafter, but this is not an indication of how they cared for their child.”
Is this the first mention of crystals?
 
  • #675
A salmon coloured headscarf?! Sounds like we need the fashion police too.


From Nancy's link above - post 672 - the head gear doesn't sound quite as stylish in this report 🤣


Today, Gordon sat next to Marten in the dock wearing a piece of cloth tied on his head as a head covering





adding link again for clarity

 
  • #676
  • #677
A salmon coloured headscarf?! Sounds like we need the fashion police too.
The proper terms is do-rag, or fancier … durag.
 
  • #678
  • #679
Is this also the first time we've heard that the reason she left hospital after giving birth in 2021 was to go to a court hearing? I don't recall this being mentioned in reports of the first trial.

 
  • #680
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