GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[OceanElix]

Is this also the first time we've heard that the reason she left hospital after giving birth in 2021 was to go to a court hearing? I don't recall this being mentioned in reports of the first trial.

Constance Marten was 'consumed by grief' after baby died, court hears

Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon face a retrial at the Old Bailey on charges of manslaughter by gross negligence after the couple fled across the country to stop their baby being taken away.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It was. It was an excuse iirc
Teams calls were a major thing during 2021 covid.
It is very likely this was held and accessible via Teams calls imo - I can't recall if this was stated or not at the time.

 

[Carriep]

It was. It was an excuse iirc
Teams calls were a major thing during 2021 covid.
It is very likely this was held and accessible via Teams calls imo - I can't recall if this was stated or not at the time.

I remember it being said that she left the hospital and wasn't allowed back in. I don't recall anything about a court hearing, though, nor its being put to her that she was offered a laptop on her bed but chose instead - the day after giving birth, or the day after? - to travel to the courthouse in person.

Was this the child they had immediately before Victoria?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Is this also the first time we've heard that the reason she left hospital after giving birth in 2021 was to go to a court hearing? I don't recall this being mentioned in reports of the first trial.

Constance Marten was 'consumed by grief' after baby died, court hears

Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon face a retrial at the Old Bailey on charges of manslaughter by gross negligence after the couple fled across the country to stop their baby being taken away.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Not sure, it's certainly been mentioned before that she left the hospital and was warned prior leaving that if she did so, she risk losing the rights to the baby. JMO MOO

 

[jackal67]

I think it is!

What Crystals?

 

[DianaWW]

Yes it was reported during the last trial:

‘At one point the couple left a child behind in hospital in order to attend a Family Court hearing, even though they had been offered a video link.’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care - BBC News

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

That article is from February last year.

 

[Nikynoo]

Is this also the first time we've heard that the reason she left hospital after giving birth in 2021 was to go to a court hearing? I don't recall this being mentioned in reports of the first trial.

Constance Marten was 'consumed by grief' after baby died, court hears

Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon face a retrial at the Old Bailey on charges of manslaughter by gross negligence after the couple fled across the country to stop their baby being taken away.

www.dailymail.co.uk

IIRC, she did leave for a court hearing but refused to be tested for COVID upon her return.

 

[dotr]

Feb 2024

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.com

'In agreed facts read to the jury, the London court heard that Ms Marten first went to a hospital in London in June 2017 where she told them she had been living in a camper van.'

''Social services issued a "national hospital alert" to other parts of the NHS, which is issued when it is suspected a pregnant woman needs protection or support.
She then attended a hospital in Wales with Mr Gordon that winter where she was in the early stages of labour and admitted as an "unbooked case" - where the mother has had no NHS antenatal care''.

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance ...​

The Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › news › 2024/03/08 › con...
Mar 8, 2024 — The court heard when she returned to the hospital the following day she was not allowed onto the ward because she refused to take a Covid test.''

 

[Alyce]

On Wednesday, jurors heard a statement from hotel receptionist Cathy Lloyd, who interacted with Marten when she checked into the Ibis Hotel at Lymm Services in Warrington at 4am on January 4 2023
Ms Lloyd said Marten had given her name as Caroline Marten and told her she was a freelance journalist.
Marten chatted with Ms Lloyd about publicity for her brother who was in a play, jurors heard.
Ms Lloyd said that she handed over her email address and phone number, but never heard back from Marten.

She told how Gordon entered reception shortly after Marten had gone to her room.
He appeared to be “very moody” and did not reply to her inquiry about whether he had checked in, which she found “unnerving”, jurors heard.

Ms Lloyd said: At no time did I see Constance and Mark together. At no point did I see a baby with either of them.
“I definitely did not see a baby or any baby items, None of their body language indicated they had a baby with them.”

Constance Marten posed as journalist as she hid tragic newborn baby, court told

Marten, 37, and her partner Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial at the Old Bailey over the death of baby Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

On January 5 2023, the couple abandoned their belongings on the M61 motorway after their Peugeot car burst into flames.

Ken Hudson filmed the fire on the motorway and called emergency services at 6.19pm.
He told jurors that he saw a female passenger holding a bundle with a baby’s head with wispy hair showing.
Giving evidence in court, Mr Hudson said he had asked her “is the baby alright”, and she replied: “She’s fine.”
He touched the baby’s head and said “God bless”, he said.

He also spoke to a male who got out of the driver’s side of the blazing car on the hard shoulder, the court heard.
Mr Hudson told jurors: “I asked him where he was going and he was making some motions away from me to my right and he just said ‘up there’ over the barrier.”

Constance Marten posed as journalist as she hid tragic newborn baby, court told

Marten, 37, and her partner Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial at the Old Bailey over the death of baby Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

On Wednesday, jurors heard a statement from hotel receptionist Cathy Lloyd, who interacted with Marten when she checked into the Ibis Hotel at Lymm Services in Warrington at 4am on January 4 2023
Ms Lloyd said Marten had given her name as Caroline Marten and told her she was a freelance journalist.
Marten chatted with Ms Lloyd about publicity for her brother who was in a play, jurors heard.
Ms Lloyd said that she handed over her email address and phone number, but never heard back from Marten.

She told how Gordon entered reception shortly after Marten had gone to her room.
He appeared to be “very moody” and did not reply to her inquiry about whether he had checked in, which she found “unnerving”, jurors heard.

Ms Lloyd said: At no time did I see Constance and Mark together. At no point did I see a baby with either of them.
“I definitely did not see a baby or any baby items, None of their body language indicated they had a baby with them.”

Constance Marten posed as journalist as she hid tragic newborn baby, court told

Marten, 37, and her partner Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial at the Old Bailey over the death of baby Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

These are kind of griftery tactics from CM here, IMO. Concocting a detailed cover story, offering to publicise the receptionist's brother's play. Quite artful and manipulative. She is clearly a skilled deceiver. JMO. Even down to using her own initials and similar names as an Alias.

Presumably MG smuggled the baby upstairs while the receptionist was distracted?

 

[CaptainNancy]

The man who helped them when the car caught fire:

Driver tells of regret after touching Constance Marten’s baby saying ‘God bless’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are on retrial at the Old Bailey.

www.fakenhamtimes.co.uk

"The witness appeared close to tears as he replied: “Certain things touch me because it was my thought all the way through the time this happened… if I had stayed there that evening until the emergency services arrived with the police there could have been a different outcome with regard to that baby.
And I have to think about that a lot. It does play on my mind because obviously this has been going on now for a long time and with coming here, it brings it all back.

“With the greatest respect, sir, I did touch that baby’s head and I did say ‘God bless’ and I got back into my car, not knowing who the people were, not knowing the history "

 

[jackal67]

On Wednesday, jurors heard a statement from hotel receptionist Cathy Lloyd, who interacted with Marten when she checked into the Ibis Hotel at Lymm Services in Warrington at 4am on January 4 2023
Ms Lloyd said Marten had given her name as Caroline Marten and told her she was a freelance journalist.
Marten chatted with Ms Lloyd about publicity for her brother who was in a play, jurors heard.
Ms Lloyd said that she handed over her email address and phone number, but never heard back from Marten.

She told how Gordon entered reception shortly after Marten had gone to her room.
He appeared to be “very moody” and did not reply to her inquiry about whether he had checked in, which she found “unnerving”, jurors heard.

Ms Lloyd said: At no time did I see Constance and Mark together. At no point did I see a baby with either of them.
“I definitely did not see a baby or any baby items, None of their body language indicated they had a baby with them.”

Constance Marten posed as journalist as she hid tragic newborn baby, court told

Marten, 37, and her partner Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial at the Old Bailey over the death of baby Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

So where was the baby then!!

 

[Carriep]

These are kind of griftery tactics from CM here, IMO. Concocting a detailed cover story, offering to publicise the receptionist's brother's play. Quite artful and manipulative. She is clearly a skilled deceiver. JMO. Even down to using her own initials and similar names as an Alias.

Presumably MG smuggled the baby upstairs while the receptionist was distracted?

Using her own surname but changing her first name to another beginning with C is appallingly bad tradecraft unless she showed ID and had no option but to say she was C Marten. But the receptionist says she claimed to have lost her credit card and wanted to pay in cash, so where does that leave us? Last time, though, CM said something about having bug-out bags packed and ready to go at three different locations? Sorry but I can't remember exactly. It was something like that. Which gave a different impression.

Perhaps she is a journalist in the sense that that occupation was, albeit a long time ago, her most recent paid employment. Not that hotels ask. But if the receptionist thought she was posh it may have been a case of "What do you do?" and then the receptionist was in awe and thought that if she was a journalist she might be able to report on the play that her brother was acting in, had produced, or had written. From the little that's online of her speaking - when she got arrested and when they were walking along the street as shown on the doorbell camera - she didn't sound "extremely well-spoken" to me at all. Many aristos don't. But she may have given a different impression to the receptionist. She sounds good with accents anyway.

She also sounds confident, able to think on her feet, and able to turn on the charm.

"She told how Gordon entered reception shortly after Marten had gone to her room. He appeared to be 'very moody' and did not reply to her inquiry about whether he had checked in, which she found 'unnerving' ."

Was no electronic key, whether card or fob, required to get from reception to where the rooms are? Why ask whether he'd checked in if she was going to let him in anyway? One possible answer might be that CM had said there were going to be two of them and hubby would turn up in a moment.

 

[Zuleika]

Is this where she was told she wouldn't be allowed back in if she refused a Covid jab ?
.I do recall it being reported along the lines of MG was outside the hospital waiting for her but can't confirm 100% if it was to attend a court case despite it being in the back of my mind that it was ."

 

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[Carriep]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed - test, not jab at issue>

Something's strange about that 2021 hospital story (IMO). A mother who was paranoid wouldn't want to let her newborn baby out of her sight. Why did they leave to attend a court hearing if they could have attended remotely? It would be interesting to have a breakdown by the hour. Traveller policy activated when? (When she was in labour?) Identification issue escalated when? Identification confirmed when? Baby with or not with his or her mother between what times? Call placed to police when? (And why?)

Another point is that MG's use of the name "James Amer" isn't great tradecraft given that CM's brother's wife (and at least for a time her best friend) has the surname "Aymer".

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

 

[CaptainNancy]

“A mother who was paranoid wouldn't want to let her newborn baby out of her sight.”

Depends what she is paranoid about. CM and MG seem to have been primarily paranoid about ‘the system’ . It was reported in the last trial that they failed to attend contact sessions with children who were being fostered (Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care - BBC News) and I seem to remember from other reports that this was because they either did or did not want CCTV at the contact centre. So less paranoid about being with their kids than about surveillance.

Similarly their plan to hand their baby to a people smuggler from Gumtree to for 6 months while they settled in Ireland (reported in the last trial) would seem to suggest that they were more concerned about beating the system than the wellbeing of the baby.

JMO.

 

[CaptainNancy]

CM was required to take a COVID test, not a jab, to be re-admitted to the post natal ward. Hardly onerous. COVID was actually killing people at the time,

 

[Carriep]

“A mother who was paranoid wouldn't want to let her newborn baby out of her sight.”

Depends what she is paranoid about. CM and MG seem to have been primarily paranoid about ‘the system’ . It was reported in the last trial that they failed to attend contact sessions with children who were being fostered (Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care - BBC News) and I seem to remember from other reports that this was because they either did or did not want CCTV at the contact centre. So less paranoid about being with their kids than about surveillance.

Similarly their plan to hand their baby to a people smuggler from Gumtree to for 6 months while they settled in Ireland (reported in the last trial) would seem to suggest that they were more concerned about beating the system than the wellbeing of the baby.

JMO.

I thought it was that they did want CCTV.

The Gumtree thing sounds more like omerta about the real network.

 

[Carriep]

CM was required to take a COVID test, not a jab, to be re-admitted to the post natal ward. Hardly onerous. COVID was actually killing people at the time,

Did the defence accept evidence that somebody told her that taking a Covid test was a condition of being allowed back in, and she said no, I'm not having one? Fully agreed it's not onerous at all.

Would she have been allowed to see her baby if she'd had the test? Or had a court judgment ordering separation already come into effect? Perhaps it was only a question of being allowed in to collect some personal effects.

The reason why I am interested is because this (as far as we know) was the child she bore immediately before Victoria. I can say from personal experience that traumatic and horrible experience surrounding one birth can affect a mother's feelings and actions in connection with the next birth to a huge extent. In fact this is probably understatement. It will affect them.