GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[CaptainNancy]

It was material / evidence from the Family Court proceedings that was allowed to be used in the first trial. Unless it was an NHS or Social Services witness at the last trial?

This trial is about whether the decisions the defendants took did or did not put the baby at risk in ways that failed to protect her. Personally I have no doubt that trauma affects people’s decision making. But that isn’t to say that they make good or safe decisions and that that is ok because it is based in trauma. That is a matter for mitigation if a defendant is found guilty.

 

[CaptainNancy]

P.s I am sorry for your own experiences of trauma

 

[Lucy6226]

Did the defence accept evidence that somebody told her that taking a Covid test was a condition of being allowed back in, and she said no, I'm not having one? Fully agreed it's not onerous at all.

Would she have been allowed to see her baby if she'd had the test? Or had a court judgment ordering separation already come into effect? Perhaps it was only a question of being allowed in to collect some personal effects.

The reason why I am interested is because this (as far as we know) was the child she bore immediately before Victoria. I can say from personal experience that traumatic and horrible experience surrounding one birth can affect a mother's feelings and actions in connection with the next birth to a huge extent. In fact this is probably understatement. It will affect them.

This doesn't explain her other children that had already been removed from their care though. A person can't keep making the same mistakes and expect the result to be different. Imo they were more concerned with beating the system than actually taking care of any of their children.

I'm sorry you have been impacted by your own traumatic experience and my above comment in no way distracts from that, it solely relates to CM & MG

 

[CaptainNancy]

I thought it was that they did want CCTV.

The Gumtree thing sounds more like omerta about the real network.

She said in court that she would have found someone on Gumtree to look after the baby for 6 months and then that person would bring the baby to Ireland. Since they would have no way to get a legal passport for the baby I would call that people smuggling.

 

[Carriep]

She said in court that she would have found someone on Gumtree to look after the baby for 6 months and then that person would bring the baby to Ireland. Since they would have no way to get a legal passport for the baby I would call that people smuggling.

Yes indeed. Smuggling a baby from one country to another is people smuggling for sure.

Wasn't it that she would stay in Britain and fight to get her other children back and someone else would take Victoria abroad?

All I meant was that Gumtree may be a red herring. The press love brands and they have reported on several in this case - Aldi, Argos, and to a lesser extent Gumtree and Peugeot. I wasn't in court and am not sure whether Gumtree was mentioned in her evidence in chief or under crossX, but in my imagination the prosecuting counsel asks in a very sceptical tone "And where would you find this person, Ms Marten?" and she kinda half snaps back "Oh there are lots of places... Gumtree for example" because she doesn't want to reveal anything about the real network or underground railway or whatever one wishes to call it. This is pure and utter speculation on my part, but it sounds more believable than her saying it because it was true. Probably you can find people on Gumtree who will do all sorts of crimes, or at least take your money saying they will do them, including crimes of violence, but the idea that she would really consider finding someone on Gumtree to look after her baby for six months sounds unlikely.

 

[Cardgame]

Last time IIRC CM took the stand and MG did not.

I wonder what will happen this time.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Neither of them turned up in court today..

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2025-03-13/constance-marten-trial-resumes-as-court-told-of-abandoned-cat?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1gVMlRuh-STtwOyIMnYZVgT1_tTcCP88IK3pyuBQWJGELl3JoNVxW9so0_aem_GYmjo0s1VVfZ_1VQ8icb3Q

 

[Alyce]

Neither of them turned up in court today..

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2025-03-13/constance-marten-trial-resumes-as-court-told-of-abandoned-cat?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1gVMlRuh-STtwOyIMnYZVgT1_tTcCP88IK3pyuBQWJGELl3JoNVxW9so0_aem_GYmjo0s1VVfZ_1VQ8icb3Q

38 mobiles.

 

[Obergine]

38 mobiles.

Trouble in paradise? I thought they liked to see each other... I guess they only have each other though so maybe not.

 

[Amaz0nia]

38 mobiles.

I know its mad isnt it….id really really like to know what their beliefs and lifestyle choices are and why…i think it may be easier to understand if there was some insight into that..like what is behind the having babies and taking them to live in a tent in the winter-its not like they were even living in a yurt or proper tent with heating etc ..theyve done that twice now - with both their first child and last child. Seems more like a punishment.

 

[Cardgame]

38 mobiles.

Don't forget the wig.

 

[Cardgame]

I know its mad isnt it….id really really like to know what their beliefs and lifestyle choices are and why…i think it may be easier to understand if there was some insight into that..like what is behind the having babies and taking them to live in a tent in the winter-its not like they were even living in a yurt or proper tent with heating etc ..theyve done that twice now - with both their first child and last child. Seems more like a punishment.

Yes I agree, this is why there was a lot of speculation during the last trial about addiction or alcoholism. They have an extremely chaotic lifestyle, exactly as you would expect from addicts, but no evidence or testimony came out about this during the trial. I think there was maybe a bottle of wine among their possessions when they were arrested at the petrol station, but other than that, AFAIR, no mention of current addictive behaviours. CM does have a history of joining cults however, the actual cult she was a member of, and a drama school with a reputation of cultish behaviour, so I think there was also speculation that she had joined a cult of one, ie MG. But then from all the evidence that came out in the trial, it seemed to lots of people as though she was the leader, not him.

 

[Nikynoo]

Tom Little KC is also arguing for a whole life tariff for the murder if Sarah Sharif under the Unduly Lenient Sentencing Scheme.

 

[Carriep]

Yes I agree, this is why there was a lot of speculation during the last trial about addiction or alcoholism. They have an extremely chaotic lifestyle, exactly as you would expect from addicts, but no evidence or testimony came out about this during the trial. I think there was maybe a bottle of wine among their possessions when they were arrested at the petrol station, but other than that, AFAIR, no mention of current addictive behaviours. CM does have a history of joining cults however, the actual cult she was a member of, and a drama school with a reputation of cultish behaviour, so I think there was also speculation that she had joined a cult of one, ie MG. But then from all the evidence that came out in the trial, it seemed to lots of people as though she was the leader, not him.

Some of the speculation last time was that what was reported to be (and looked like) cat litter may have been mephedrone or some other drug, but it turned out to be...cat litter.

What is the cultish reputation of the East 15 drama school? Many of its graduates seem to be working in professional careers as actors or comedians. I couldn't find any indication that it gets up to dodgy stuff training people who need skills of deceit for other than entertainment purposes. A few people who graduated there or who otherwise intersect with the school have interests in NLP but no more than I'd expect by chance, among those working in drama generally.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Trouble in paradise? I thought they liked to see each other... I guess they only have each other though so maybe not.

Maybe they've split up?

The relationship was so unhealthy that even cursory therapeutic work or recovery programme work conducted inside prison would surely result in one or the other or both realising they need to part ways?

JMO MOO

Are prisoners allowed to phone or write letters to one another if both parties are inside? And if both parties are co-defendants in the same case? Does anyone know?

 

[Konstantin]

38 mobiles.

Those would have been intended as burner phones so that their phone traffic could not be traced. Use one unlocked no contract phone for a bit with a PAYG SIM, then dump it and the SIM and turn a new phone on and put a new PAYG SIM in. It's evidence they were planning to be on the run for a while.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Some of the speculation last time was that what was reported to be (and looked like) cat litter may have been mephedrone or some other drug, but it turned out to be...cat litter.

What is the cultish reputation of the East 15 drama school? Many of its graduates seem to be working in professional careers as actors or comedians. I couldn't find any indication that it gets up to dodgy stuff training people who need skills of deceit for other than entertainment purposes. A few people who graduated there or who otherwise intersect with the school have interests in NLP but no more than I'd expect by chance, among those working in drama generally.

E15

 

[Carriep]

E15

Thanks for this link. I see there has been quite a lot of sexual abuse and sicko conditioning at drama schools including East 15.

 

[Cardgame]

E15

From this article:

In the second term of her first year at East 15 Acting School in 2014, *Holly's class had a sensory experience set in a 1730s brothel in London...

"We were indoctrinated into this cult-like bubble. The expectation is to say yes to everything because we've had it hammered into us that we're lucky to be there."

 

[Carriep]

CM was in court today. MG wasn't.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2025-03-14/constance-marten-returns-to-court-to-view-last-images-of-baby-victoria

What is the thinking behind allowing a defendant who is remanded in custody to choose whether or not they will attend their trial, given that if they are released on bail they are usually obliged to attend because they are bailed to return to court? As far as I know, if a defendant who has been released on bail turns up at their trial on the allotted date, they aren't allowed to leave the dock after 10 minutes and say okay, that's enough, they don't want to hear the next bit and they're leaving now.

"The court heard how Marten caught the eye of Nichola Hutton as she travelled through East Ham on a bus.

Wearing a scruffy burgundy coat and red scarf and standing outside a shop, the witness thought the woman might be homeless or have mental health problems, jurors heard.

In a statement read to court, Ms Hutton said it looked like the woman, she later recognised as Marten from a news report, had something wrapped in her coat.

At first she thought she was hiding stolen goods or was holding a pet, but said: “In hindsight I think it could have been a baby.”

She added that she thought it was “strange” Marten had a bright red scarf wrapped around hair and nose “as it was not that cold outside”."

^ I'm not sure where the prosecution are going to with that evidence from a bus passenger.