GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Konstantin]

Cetaceans are an infraorder of mammals that includes whales, dolphins, and porpoises. So he is saying that he has met many indigenous whale or dolphin people.

Celebrating cetaceans in Indigenous cultures - World Cetacean Alliance

On the International Day of the World’s Indigenous Peoples, we’re celebrating the importance of cetaceans in Indigenous cultures!

worldcetaceanalliance.org

Some indigenous cultures attach deep spiritual meaning to dolphins and other cetaceans, which are part of their founding myths. I have no idea what CM's father believes about this but he is not a member of any indigenous culture himself. Perhaps he has appropriated some indigenous cultural beliefs as part of his own worldview somehow.

 

[Cardgame]

I think the whole paranoid delusions thing is tricky though, because while they appear to have some paranoid beliefs about her family, none of those beliefs have ever applied to what happened to Victoria*. They certainly seem to have fully understood that she had died, and at no point has anything suggested that they hid her body in a bag, under rubbish and abandoned in a shed for delusional reasons. They never told police of her location and for that their reasoning also sounded criminal, not delusional. It was focused on them not getting into trouble, autopsy results etc.

Im no legal expert, but perhaps if you appear to have committed a crime then you would only avoid prosecution for mental health reasons if your delusional thinking specifically related to that same crime?

Their motives in relation to Victoria seem IMO questionable/criminal rather than delusional . JMO.

*They seem deluded about how well they cared for her, but I'm guessing that isn't unusual in cases where parents have children removed?

 

[Carriep]

Celebrating cetaceans in Indigenous cultures - World Cetacean Alliance

On the International Day of the World’s Indigenous Peoples, we’re celebrating the importance of cetaceans in Indigenous cultures!

worldcetaceanalliance.org

Some indigenous cultures attach deep spiritual meaning to dolphins and other cetaceans, which are part of their founding myths. I have no idea what CM's father believes about this but he is not a member of any indigenous culture himself. Perhaps he has appropriated some indigenous cultural beliefs as part of his own worldview somehow.

Yes indeed - several aboriginal peoples in Australia and also Polynesian peoples including the Maoris in New Zealand.

NM writes that he "has met many First Nation ‘cetacean’ people, catalyzing his future direction".
I suspect he does not mean either living human beings with an interest in cetaceans or living cetaceans. (Edit: more info has caused me to revise this - see below.)

Constance Marten: The missing aristocrat, her rapist partner and the family rift

Her upbringing had all the trappings of high society, so how did Constance Marten come to be on the run for weeks on end with a sex offender 13 years her senior? Tom Ough reports

www.independent.co.uk

"When she was nine, Constance’s father had what was described as an “awakening”. He later told how a voice in his head had told him to discard the £115m family fortune, shave his head and fly to Australia. Napier followed its bidding and, having duly shaved his head, had an out-of-body experience while standing on a cliff-top with a group of Aboriginal Australians."

The tone of that article in the Independent is sneering, for sure, but it's still very likely that the piece was lawyered up because it's inadvisable to write in public for a large audience that a named person with very deep pockets has said that they heard a voice in their head unless the statement can be supported.

The statement features in other media organs too, including in the Daily Mail which reports "voices" in the plural:

'A voice told me to shave my head and go to Australia': Epiphany of heir to £115m country estate who gave up fortune to go whale watching

Napier Marten has given up the Crichel Estate in Dorset and the £115million family fortune to explore alternative therapies and explore his subconscious.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Out of interest, who is he supposed to have given the £115m to?

The obvious question is whether he has received any other instructions during his life from a voice or voices in his head.

Edit

He seems to have been involved with an unsuccessful application for a grant from Risidio, a group operating on the crypto blockchain:

Risidio: Indigenous NFT Marketplace Phase I with SIP0013 · Issue #294 · stacksgov/grants-program

Background What problems do you aim to solve? Our project is designed to address five core problems each of which is individually designed to serve the mission of a user-owned Internet, while colle...

github.com

BBM

Mirthquake was initiated on the Nullarbor Plain, South Australia 28 years ago where, at the Head of the Great Australian Bight, he met with the Mirning, a dispossessed group of ‘whale dreaming’ Indigenous Australians, declared extinct in the mid-1950s. Their appropriated land and expulsion caused the loss of their connection with the Southern Right Whales, whom they consider their ancestors, and with whom they had had a continuous, remarkable relationship for many tens of thousands of years.

Napier’s profound awakening in communion with Southern Right Whales was the spark of realisation fuelling his heartfelt quest to create a cetacean mirthquake around the world. Mirthquake World focuses on the preservation and celebration of the ancient connection between Man and Cetacean to precipitate a ripple, a wave of change for humanity. In myriad myths and legends from all corners of the earth, it seems whales and dolphins, amongst other things, have been constant harbingers of conscious evolution for mankind. Mirthquake World has established foundations in UK, Australia, Fiji, Mexico and is also on assignment in the Amazon, Vietnam and North America.

Napier has met many First Nation cetacean people around the world, and now focuses on understanding and sharing the urgent need for global recognition of this profound and ancient relationship with cetaceans, sharing intelligence, wisdom and a greater understanding of how our reconnection to nature is fundamental for our long-term survival. Blessed with a varied career including rural management, arborist, an actor, helicopter pilot and consultancy. Napier is an active Cranio-Sacral Practitioner. He has also developed Mirthquake Productions, a platform dedicated to informing individuals, institutions and politicians using music, film, entertainment of the work of Mirthquake Foundation.

On the Mirning, see

Mirning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the "cetacean" people he met, contrary to what I suspected, do appear to have been real live human beings....whom it seems rather reductive, even in context, to characterise as "cetacean people", but perhaps he simply can't write well.

Edit 2

See the film Whaledreamers (2006) and some of the reviews here:

Whaledreamers - Movie Reviews

Rotten Tomatoes, home of the Tomatometer, is the most trusted measurement of quality for Movies & TV. The definitive site for Reviews, Trailers, Showtimes, and Tickets

www.rottentomatoes.com

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yes indeed - several aboriginal peoples in Australia and also Polynesian peoples including the Maoris in New Zealand.

NM writes that he "has met many First Nation ‘cetacean’ people, catalyzing his future direction".
I suspect he does not mean either living human beings with an interest in cetaceans or living cetaceans. (Edit: more info has caused me to revise this - see below.)

Constance Marten: The missing aristocrat, her rapist partner and the family rift

Her upbringing had all the trappings of high society, so how did Constance Marten come to be on the run for weeks on end with a sex offender 13 years her senior? Tom Ough reports

www.independent.co.uk

The tone of that article in the Independent is sneering, for sure, but it's still very likely that the piece was lawyered up because it's inadvisable to write in public for a large audience that a named person with very deep pockets has said that they heard a voice in their head unless the statement can be supported.

The statement features in other media organs too, including in the Daily Mail which reports "voices" in the plural:

'A voice told me to shave my head and go to Australia': Epiphany of heir to £115m country estate who gave up fortune to go whale watching

Napier Marten has given up the Crichel Estate in Dorset and the £115million family fortune to explore alternative therapies and explore his subconscious.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Out of interest, who is he supposed to have given the £115m to?

The obvious question is whether he has received any other instructions during his life from a voice or voices in his head.

Edit

He seems to have been involved with an unsuccessful application for a grant from Risidio, a group operating on the crypto blockchain:

Risidio: Indigenous NFT Marketplace Phase I with SIP0013 · Issue #294 · stacksgov/grants-program

Background What problems do you aim to solve? Our project is designed to address five core problems each of which is individually designed to serve the mission of a user-owned Internet, while colle...

github.com

BBM



On the Mirning, see

Mirning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the "cetacean" people he met, contrary to what I suspected, do appear to have been real live human beings....whom it seems rather reductive, even in context, to characterise as "cetacean people", but perhaps he simply can't write well.

I read the whole thing as new age “save the whales. “
He’s trying to make a point that whales were there first (indigenous), they were in the Ocean before human started drilling the seabed etc He is moved by their plight, hunted to near extinction, their environment destroyed. He’s trying to make a comparison to what has happened to many indigenous peoples.

IMO-He has nothing to do with Death of baby Victoria, in winter living rough on South Downs.

Likely got PI find her out of concern or at very least …. Where do we send the Trust documents? …. and very likely if the is beneficiary of a Trust, she needs to attend meetings. They might need to make “every effort” to locate her.
I have a friend similar financial situation to her, he lives abroad, hates his family, but once a year needs to be in UK to attend a meeting where Trust details what money went where, who gets what, investments etc. He must sit alongside family members each of whom is also a beneficiary and fight over decisions & money. My friend is only son, he gets more benefit as male heir …. But has no children so eldest sister’s, eldest son will be next male heir …
Not a happy families situation.

 

[Carriep]

I read the whole thing as new age “save the whales. “
He’s trying to make a point that whales were there first (indigenous), they were in the Ocean before human started drilling the seabed etc He is moved by their plight, hunted to near extinction, their environment destroyed. He’s trying to make a comparison to what has happened to many indigenous peoples.

IMO-He has nothing to do with Death of baby Victoria, in winter living rough on South Downs.

Likely got PI find her out of concern or at very least …. Where do we send the Trust documents? …. and very likely if the is beneficiary of a Trust, she needs to attend meetings. They might need to make “every effort” to locate her.
I have a friend similar financial situation to her, he lives abroad, hates his family, but once a year needs to be in UK to attend a meeting where Trust details what money went where, who gets what, investments etc. He must sit alongside family members each of whom is also a beneficiary and fight over decisions & money. My friend is only son, he gets more benefit as male heir …. But has no children so eldest sister’s, eldest son will be next male heir …
Not a happy families situation.

I am vegetarian, support a total ban on whale hunting, and on all other animal hunting too including fishing, and I'm pro indigenous people and spiritual. I'm currently downloading the Whaledreamers film [*] and hoping I'll learn something from it. Maybe it'll help shed light on the strange Pictish "beast" symbol that some have said represents the beaked whale, and perhaps also on the animal symbolism at Gobleki Tepe. What I am worried about is not this kind of thing but the voice or voices in Napier Marten's head, which he is reported in mainstream media to have said told him what to do.

A trust beneficiary isn't obliged to attend meetings if she doesn't want to. This is just a guess but I suspect that if CM received a letter from the trust administrators at a bricks and mortar address where she was on the electoral roll and simply refused to accept delivery, causing Royal Mail or other courier to return it to sender, or wrote on the front "Please return to sender" and put it in a postbox, or if she just did nothing, that would not have stopped the private investigators from being sicced onto her. This is complete and utter speculation, JMO, etc. Both of her parents should give evidence in court IMO, and so should whoever the male family member is whom she accuses of abuse. Ditto the PIs themselves. They do not have any professional obligation to clients that renders them immune from saying in court what they did if it's relevant.

* It's taking ages!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think the whole paranoid delusions thing is tricky though, because while they appear to have some paranoid beliefs about her family, none of those beliefs have ever applied to what happened to Victoria*. They certainly seem to have fully understood that she had died, and at no point has anything suggested that they hid her body in a bag, under rubbish and abandoned in a shed for delusional reasons. They never told police of her location and for that their reasoning also sounded criminal, not delusional. It was focused on them not getting into trouble, autopsy results etc.

Im no legal expert, but perhaps if you appear to have committed a crime then you would only avoid prosecution for mental health reasons if your delusional thinking specifically related to that same crime?

Their motives in relation to Victoria seem IMO questionable/criminal rather than delusional . JMO.

*They seem deluded about how well they cared for her, but I'm guessing that isn't unusual in cases where parents have children removed?

Delusional psychosis and paranoia, the type that means someone is not culpable for their actions can easily and often cross over into criminal activity, where both things are true - the person is psychotic, delusional, paranoid, acting on false beliefs *and* their actions are serious crimes.

In the cases where a psychiatrist can show the person was suffering severe mental illness and killed someone whilst psychotic (and women do kill their own children sadly), they aren't held culpable for 'murder', in my country at least, although they may certainly be held in a secure psychiatric facility indefinitely until deemed safe and well.

JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

Delusional psychosis and paranoia, the type that means someone is not culpable for their actions can easily and often cross over into criminal activity, where both things are true - the person is psychotic, delusional, paranoid, acting on false beliefs *and* their actions are serious crimes.

In the cases where a psychiatrist can show the person was suffering severe mental illness and killed someone whilst psychotic (and women do kill their own children sadly), they aren't held culpable for 'murder', in my country at least, although they may certainly be held in a secure psychiatric facility indefinitely until deemed safe and well.

JMO MOO

To decide whether someone has delusions or not you need to know whether or not their beliefs about the objective reality they are experiencing are reasonable or not, so you need to have an understanding of their objective reality to compare their view of it against.

She says an unidentified male family member may want her dead. Just as some women do kill their own children, some male family members do kill adult female family members, try to, or would like to kill them and either do or don't follow up. So it is possible that her belief about her objective reality is accurate and reasonable.

We know that an identified male family member heard voices in his head.

We also know that the same male family member sent private investigators after her.

I'm not saying the alleged death wisher and the hearer of head voices are the same male family member. They may or may not be. Perhaps it has been made clear in actual evidence from the witness box whether they are the same male person or whether they are two completely different male persons. But those of us who only know about this case what we read in the media cannot reasonably opine that they are definitely not the same person.

The defence are not arguing diminished responsibility by reason of mental illness, and a miscarriage of justice would be possible if prosecutors had strong evidence to show that this defendant was suffering from psychotic delusions in 2023 but are nonetheless sitting on it and prosecuting her on the basis of the idea that she wasn't. If we assume the prosecutors are doing their job competently and lawfully, we can assume that they do not have evidence that strongly indicates she was psychotic in that way.

At the moment I would say it seems highly likely that she was not suffering from such delusions, given that neither side in this highly adversarial case is saying so, even if one can build an explanation for events in which she was, and of course it is possible that she was, just not probable IMO.

The two matters that more information is needed about in order to make progress IMO are 1. the cars and 2. the actions of family members. I hope more evidence is brought to court about both of these matters, whether it's by the defence, whose case is still open, or if it requires that the prosecution brings rebuttal evidence.

Last point: a judge in an English crown court can call witnesses.

 

[Nikynoo]

“Mr Smith asked her about hiding her baby's body under some rubbish in a shopping bag, saying: "It was a quite despicable thing to do to her body wasn't it?"

Marten replied: "If you are going to go down that route that shows the sort of person you are."

She then also later said: "To be quite honest your honour, I am tired of this whole process. I just find him [Smith] abhorrent. I just don't like the way he talks to me."

Towards the end of the session, she said: "I am so sorry I am not going to continue. I am at breaking point. I understand that I am being prosecuted but I am not going to sit here and be spoken to like that." “

Which perhaps shows the kind of person SHE is!

(Though it must be gruelling, for anyone)

Well, if he (the barrister questioning) used the same tactics as the last trial, it is pretty low (IMO).

 

[Nikynoo]

Thanks. I had missed this bit:


I assumed the alleged prejudice was a combination of class, in fact class most of all, with some ethnicity mixed in, or with racism kinda laying itself bare given the class prejudice, having not come out with her brother-in-law who is not known to be working class. (All of this JMO).

Her parents should give evidence in court IMO, not first of all to be tried for alleged prejudice, or to be tried for anything else, but to clarify regarding what they have actually done or not done, and then asked their reasons for doing it or not doing it. Very crudely, either she is bats or lying about all this fear of car explosions and "want me dead" stuff or she is telling the truth and perhaps a bit bats, if at all, because of the pressure it put her under. (JMO etc.)

I don't think her mum would help the prosecutions case tbh. A previous post that metioned her mother saying 'Quite' triggered a memory, but I cannot find the article. To what did her mother say 'quite' to?

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes indeed - several aboriginal peoples in Australia and also Polynesian peoples including the Maoris in New Zealand.

NM writes that he "has met many First Nation ‘cetacean’ people, catalyzing his future direction".
I suspect he does not mean either living human beings with an interest in cetaceans or living cetaceans. (Edit: more info has caused me to revise this - see below.)

Constance Marten: The missing aristocrat, her rapist partner and the family rift

Her upbringing had all the trappings of high society, so how did Constance Marten come to be on the run for weeks on end with a sex offender 13 years her senior? Tom Ough reports

www.independent.co.uk

The tone of that article in the Independent is sneering, for sure, but it's still very likely that the piece was lawyered up because it's inadvisable to write in public for a large audience that a named person with very deep pockets has said that they heard a voice in their head unless the statement can be supported.

The statement features in other media organs too, including in the Daily Mail which reports "voices" in the plural:

'A voice told me to shave my head and go to Australia': Epiphany of heir to £115m country estate who gave up fortune to go whale watching

Napier Marten has given up the Crichel Estate in Dorset and the £115million family fortune to explore alternative therapies and explore his subconscious.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Out of interest, who is he supposed to have given the £115m to?

The obvious question is whether he has received any other instructions during his life from a voice or voices in his head.

Edit

He seems to have been involved with an unsuccessful application for a grant from Risidio, a group operating on the crypto blockchain:

Risidio: Indigenous NFT Marketplace Phase I with SIP0013 · Issue #294 · stacksgov/grants-program

Background What problems do you aim to solve? Our project is designed to address five core problems each of which is individually designed to serve the mission of a user-owned Internet, while colle...

github.com

BBM



On the Mirning, see

Mirning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So the "cetacean" people he met, contrary to what I suspected, do appear to have been real live human beings....whom it seems rather reductive, even in context, to characterise as "cetacean people", but perhaps he simply can't write well.

Edit 2

See the film Whaledreamers (2006) and some of the reviews here:

Whaledreamers - Movie Reviews

Rotten Tomatoes, home of the Tomatometer, is the most trusted measurement of quality for Movies & TV. The definitive site for Reviews, Trailers, Showtimes, and Tickets

www.rottentomatoes.com

I believe the 110 million is in reference to the assets of the Trust. The estate and title passed to his eldest son, who promptly sold Crichel House. I believe that this was the catalyst for C’s anger as she believed this was not what her grandmother would have wanted ( her grandmother went to great lengths to get Crichel House back from the government).

 

[Alyce]

www.courtserve.net


Tuesday May 13

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I don't think her mum would help the prosecutions case tbh. A previous post that metioned her mother saying 'Quite' triggered a memory, but I cannot find the article. To what did her mother say 'quite' to?

I think it was the guy who helped when the car broke down. He said something along the lines that he wished he had done more and maybe Victoria would be alive or something like that and the mother said "quite!" a bit angrily.

I could be wrong but that's how I remember it.

 

[dotr]

2024 re-post.

Constance Marten’s parents admit they hired private detectives to track her, court is told

Daughter accused of killing baby claimed she was being followed when she went on run with her child

www.telegraph.co.uk

''Virginie de Selliers, Ms Marten’s mother, who has attended the trial regularly, told police she had employed a private investigator for two weeks in October 2016 as she was worried about her daughter.

Napier Marten, her father, admitted hiring a private investigator in 2017 and 2021 to try to find her.

But both parents deny employing a private investigator in 2022 or 2023 when Marten claims she was still being tracked.''

 

[Legally Bland]

Post by @bobbymkii in thread #5.

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

Post in thread 'UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5'

Jan 30, 2024

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

• bobbymkii

• 
• 
• 

 

[bobbymkii]

Post by @bobbymkii in thread #5.

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

Post in thread 'UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5'

Jan 30, 2024

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

• bobbymkii

• 
• 
• 

And a year later I'm still none-the-wiser as to what Virginie de-poshfrenchiename meant by that monosyllabic unsolicited remark in the courtroom. I guess now she has twice been accused under oath by CM of being bigoted and hiring private detectives to sabotage her motor vehicles so she might be more on Ken's side of the argument than Toots and her troublesome hurty tooth?

JMO

 

[Carriep]

And a year later I'm still none-the-wiser as to what Virginie de-poshfrenchiename meant by that monosyllabic unsolicited remark in the courtroom. I guess now she has twice been accused under oath by CM of being bigoted and hiring private detectives to sabotage her motor vehicles so she might be more on Ken's side of the argument than Toots and her troublesome hurty tooth?

JMO

There may have been some sarcasm involved - an undertone of "This uppety serf is talking as though he's one of us. He's so riiiiight." It's a bit of an odd way to think about a chap who has seen your daughter, her husband, and your grandchild involved in a scary incident on a motorway and who has stopped to help, delaying his arrival at wherever he was going (because serfs go places too), and who has called the emergency services, but there you go. She may also have still been grieving and been in the "angry" stage. It would be useful IMO if she came to court to answer about the hiring of a private detective, but too much can be read into a single word with only a very little context - and with even less once you take into account the possibility of journalistic licence and error. JMO.

What little we know about her includes that she can't possibly be the family member her daughter says was an abuser, because CM said that person was male.

 

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I read the “quite” as response to Ken saying “I wish they [CM, baby & MG] had stayed at the scene.” (No one could have foreseen what would happen next)

100% - - if they had stayed at the “scene”, we wouldn’t be on this thread right now.

 

[Skigh]

I read the “quite” as response to Ken saying “I wish they [CM, baby & MG] had stayed at the scene.” (No one could have foreseen what would happen next)

100% - - if they had stayed at the “scene”, we wouldn’t be on this thread right now.

Quite.

 

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com