GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

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  • #1,101
When jurors returned to court on Tuesday they were told that she had been given special permission to speak to her barrister in the middle of her evidence as she decided whether to continue, but it remained her “firm view” that she would not return to the witness box.

The Recorder of London, Mark Lucraft KC, told the jury: “I, in due course, will direct you about what consequence that has.

 
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dbm
 
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When jurors returned to court on Tuesday they were told that she had been given special permission to speak to her barrister in the middle of her evidence as she decided whether to continue, but it remained her “firm view” that she would not return to the witness box.

The Recorder of London, Mark Lucraft KC, told the jury: “I, in due course, will direct you about what consequence that has.

Goodness knows what is going on here. The media are not reporting everything.

A witness may not simply refuse to answer questions, and a judge has the authority to order them to answer, to consider a refusal to be a contempt, and to have them locked up until they obey the order to answer.

On the other hand, there is a right not to answer certain types of question, including ones to which the answers would be self-incriminatory. And counsel does not have the right to ask whatever questions they want in cross-examination. There is scope for legal argument in both of these areas and for appeal.

This is being described in the media as a blanket refusal to answer questions, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's not accurate and there is an argument about certain questions that might be asked, perhaps because they might elicit certain answers, and CM has not accepted the judge's decision. (JMO). (Perhaps a specific question has been allowed to be asked, it has been asked, she has refused to answer, and what the question was hasn't been reported.) Whichever way we look at it, a case is supposed to be tried on the basis of evidence that comes through the witness box, so in that sense this is essentially about evidence (or the absence of it) rather than questions. My guess is that the CPS were caught on the back foot when MG represented himself to ask questions, but it could be that the CPS have been on the front foot today. Why? Because it is (JMO) beneficial for the crown if CM appears as a person who thinks not wanting to do something automatically means it's okay for her not to do it. On the other hand, being portrayed in that way in court reports in the media is not the same as appearing that way in court, so perhaps the CPS did not do well today. We can only guess... This seems like a very high-league conflict for sure.

"Special permission" is a very loaded term, and I note that the Independent does not attribute these exact words to the judge.

If I were writing this as a novel, I would have a dramatic handover of crown representation to another barrister...
 
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On Tuesday, Judge Mark Lucraft KC told jurors that Marten had decided not to continue with Mr Smith’s cross-examination.

The jury was sent away until Wednesday afternoon when the Old Bailey trial will continue.



 
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I wonder if she was advised to stick to the events from Victoria's birth onwards and then she's refused to give any further evidence because she will be unable to mention her previous children being 'stolen' and being 'stalked by her family'
 
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I wonder if she was advised to stick to the events from Victoria's birth onwards and then she's refused to give any further evidence because she will be unable to mention her previous children being 'stolen' and being 'stalked by her family'

I agree. Having attempted to bring in as much irrelevant information as possible when she was being gently questioned by MG, the subsequent cross examination last week must have shown her that evidence was being produced that she did not want the Jury to hear. It was only going to get harder ( for her ) this week - so no doubt easier to just walk away.



All MOO of course, based on the limited reporting we have heard from this trial.
 
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On Tuesday, Judge Mark Lucraft KC told jurors that Marten had decided not to continue with Mr Smith’s cross-examination.

The jury was sent away until Wednesday afternoon when the Old Bailey trial will continue.



Surely a defendant can't just refuse to be cross-examined after giving evidence? Outerwise, why would any defendant agree to be cross-examined.

What are the potential consequencies that flow from this?
 
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I’m not sure as I’ve never seen this before…will the jury be asked to completely discount all of the evidence she’s given now? It’s not exactly balanced if they’re allowed to consider her speak in her own defence, but aren’t able to hear what she’d say under cross examination.

Presumably they’ll also be able to draw an inference from her decision, in the same way they would if she refused to give evidence? I’m just guessing though!
 
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I read the “quite” as response to Ken saying “I wish they [CM, baby & MG] had stayed at the scene.” (No one could have foreseen what would happen next)

100% - - if they had stayed at the “scene”, we wouldn’t be on this thread right now.
I sometimes wonder how heartbreaking it is that they had so many chances to save Victoria's life. By this I mean properly save her, keeping her alive warm and fed. Not the "saving" version of this deluded pair, ferrying her in winter, without as much as a hat.
There must have been so many moments when they should have stopped to think and realise how insane their plan was.

JMO MOO
 
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Surely a defendant can't just refuse to be cross-examined after giving evidence? Outerwise, why would any defendant agree to be cross-examined.

What are the potential consequencies that flow from this?
But she's special!! She's not just any defendant. She's entitled to throw a hissy fit when she's not being humoured.
I've said it before. These 2 want the world to bend around them. When does doesn't happen, they feel persecuted and hard done by.
JMO MOO
 
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Don’t see that CM refusal will benefit her defense.

Refusal behavior parallels her behaviors with regards to Baby, refusal to what was required to care for baby, refusal to comply with behavioral & childcare norms.

Do only what daddy bear asks
 
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Surely a defendant can't just refuse to be cross-examined after giving evidence? Outerwise, why would any defendant agree to be cross-examined.

What are the potential consequencies that flow from this?


I have never seen this before and I’ve followed many trials.
I guess the Judge took this choice rather than have a hostile witness who responded with
I can’t remember’ to every Prosecution question.

Unfortunately it has stopped the Prosecution from bringing in more evidence. Hopefully Joel can somehow cover this in his closing.
 
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But she's special!! She's not just any defendant. She's entitled to throw a hissy fit when she's not being humoured.
I've said it before. These 2 want the world to bend around them. When does doesn't happen, they feel persecuted and hard done by.
JMO MOO
If one takes only what's been in the media, today seems to have been a good day for the prosecution. JMO but the use of the word "despicable" may have been baiting and if it was it may have worked. OTOH I may be wrong and refusing cross-examination might be a planned move.

@DianaWW - The judge could at the extreme end of an adverse inference direction say to disregard everything she has said, but that would be unlikely IMO, and even if he does do that he will have to say guilt can't be inferred from silence alone. He's more likely to say to lay easy on giving her testimony a lot of "credit".

One should expect further surprises IMO.
 
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I have never seen this before and I’ve followed many trials.
I guess the Judge took this choice rather than have a hostile witness who responded with
I can’t remember’ to every Prosecution question.

It does mean that CM had stopped the Prosecution from bringing in more evidence. Hopefully Joel can somehow cover this in his closing.
The prosecution stopped introducing evidence when they closed their case.

CM may call further witnesses other than herself.
 
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Surely a defendant can't just refuse to be cross-examined after giving evidence? Outerwise, why would any defendant agree to be cross-examined.

What are the potential consequencies that flow from this?
This is exactly what I'm wondering. In fact I've always wondered what would happen in this exact scenario!

IMO all of the evidence she has given under oath should be struck from the record and she should be held in contempt of court. She has disobeyed the oath she took when she entered the witness box. There's no way she can just opt out of cross examination without consequences and the jury be allowed to judge her based only on the lovely cuddly questions she got from her barrister and her boyfriend.

That's like a football team going 1-0 up in the first half of a football match and then refusing to come out to play the second half of the match and claiming that their win should stand! Absolutely no way! If defendants could choose to just break their oath and opt out of cross examination because the horrible, mean prosecutor was being really horrible and mean, they'd all do it!

JMO
 
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If one takes only what's been in the media, today seems to have been a good day for the prosecution. JMO but the use of the word "despicable" may have been baiting and if it was it may have worked. OTOH I may be wrong and refusing cross-examination might be a planned move.

@DianaWW - The judge could at the extreme end of an adverse inference direction say disregard everything she has said, but that would be unlikely IMO, and even if he does do that he will have to say guilt can't be inferred from silence alone. He's more likely to say lay easy on giving her testimony a lot of "credit".

One should expect further surprises IMO.

I don’t think it would be extreme at all for the judge to make that decision. But honestly, I’ve given up trying to predict anything as far as this trial goes!
 
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To summarise we can say that going only by the media reports this would seem to be the defence tripping themselves up, but there's probably much more to this and that assessment is based on the equivalent of looking through a keyhole and only seeing 1%, and a 1% that is blurred to say the least.

Is CM known for impulsivity or being easy to rile?

Every defendant knows the toughest time in the box is the cross-examination. And she has been through cross-examination before, on the same charges. So goodness knows what's going on.
 
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The prosecution stopped introducing evidence when they closed their case.

CM may call further witnesses other than herself.
I wish she’d call me. I’d love to tell her what I think of her at this point.
 
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Was CM in court today?
 
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