GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Maltesepuppy]

Jury in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial shown how police found baby

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon deny the manslaughter of Victoria, whose body was found in a shed.

www.bbc.com

'Officers found baby Victoria under some rubbish in a Lidl bag for life in a shed in Brighton on 1 March 2023.
Ms Marten told police she had kept her body bebwcause she wanted an "autopsy" and "proper burial", the court heard.'

"I kept the body because I wanted to have an autopsy done. I didn't bury her because wanted her to have a proper burial but I couldn't get a proper burial until I had an autopsy."

She kept the body because she wanted an autopsy and a proper burial.
In the meantime, they continue to hide and let the body decompose further.
They tried "their very best" to preserve Victoria's body by leaving it in a shopping bag covered with rubbish.
When found, they refused to let the authorities know where Victoria was, which would have allowed said autopsy and burial.
If the whole motivation to run was to "save" Victoria from SS evil clutches they would have surrendered as soon as she passed.
I don't understand why people still listen to CM. To me she's completely unable to tell the truth and changes everything to fit around her fantasy.


JMO MOO

 

[Alyce]

Today's schedule so far


www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

Giving evidence at the Old Bailey, Professor Peter Fleming said it was normal for parents to co-sleep with their babies, with around 25% of infants under six months doing so in the UK

Asked by barrister Tom Godfrey, defending Marten, about mothers falling asleep after breastfeeding, Prof Fleming told jurors breastfeeding was an “incredibly demanding process” and that falling asleep afterwards was “almost universal”.

Prof Fleming told the court the risk of any baby “dying suddenly or unexpectedly” was about one in 4,000, and that factors such as soft bedding and rolled-up items around the baby made the risk about twice as high.
He said: “We advise keeping pillows and duvets away from the baby.”

He told jurors he had dealt with two previous cases where a mother had sat up with the baby before falling asleep over it.

It is also alleged that Victoria was inadequately clothed in a babygrow and that Marten had got wet as she carried the baby underneath her coat.
CCTV footage previously played in court showed the baby being put in a buggy while wearing a white babygrow in east London on January 7 2023.
Asked by Mr Godfrey if he thought the handling of Victoria at the shop was inappropriate, Prof Fleming said: “I wouldn’t say inappropriate, slightly clumsy.


more at the link ................

Mothers falling asleep after breastfeeding ‘almost universal’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.heraldscotland.com

 

[Carriep]

Giving evidence at the Old Bailey, Professor Peter Fleming said it was normal for parents to co-sleep with their babies, with around 25% of infants under six months doing so in the UK

Asked by barrister Tom Godfrey, defending Marten, about mothers falling asleep after breastfeeding, Prof Fleming told jurors breastfeeding was an “incredibly demanding process” and that falling asleep afterwards was “almost universal”.

Prof Fleming told the court the risk of any baby “dying suddenly or unexpectedly” was about one in 4,000, and that factors such as soft bedding and rolled-up items around the baby made the risk about twice as high.
He said: “We advise keeping pillows and duvets away from the baby.”

He told jurors he had dealt with two previous cases where a mother had sat up with the baby before falling asleep over it.

It is also alleged that Victoria was inadequately clothed in a babygrow and that Marten had got wet as she carried the baby underneath her coat.
CCTV footage previously played in court showed the baby being put in a buggy while wearing a white babygrow in east London on January 7 2023.
Asked by Mr Godfrey if he thought the handling of Victoria at the shop was inappropriate, Prof Fleming said: “I wouldn’t say inappropriate, slightly clumsy.


more at the link ................

Mothers falling asleep after breastfeeding ‘almost universal’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are on trial charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.heraldscotland.com

Of course many parents co-sleep, and many mothers fall asleep while breastfeeding.

In five years' time, the advice might change to pro co-sleeping. It's probably pro co-sleeping now in some countries. Half the world can't afford separate sleeping space anyway, so I don't imagine the advice in all countries is anti co-sleeping. I was advised to put my newborn to sleep face up, whereas in the recent past the advice had been that it was fine or even preferable to put newborns to sleep face down. A case of "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". Although to the midwife's credit she did say the advice had changed to its complete opposite. She also made me listen to a lecture saying not to smoke, when nobody in the house had ever smoked and nobody was allowed to smoke in the house or near the baby, as I told her. But the rules are the rules. "I'm just doing my job", etc. (She didn't say that. I didn't say anything either, after I'd told her that even if she was going to advise me that smoking was okay I still wouldn't do it!)

The prosecution's citing things such as that CM was advised not to co-sleep, as every single mother of a newborn who comes into contact with the medical system is advised (as much of the population knows), that she put her baby into a buggy wearing a babygrow, and that she got wet when it was raining, makes the crown's case in favour of a conviction for the very serious crime of manslaughter seem terribly weak. IMO.

Justice for Victoria will mean an inquiry that looks into why her parents were chased and prosecuted and what effects on other families have resulted from the same causes. IMO

 

[bbsaz]

Of course many parents co-sleep, and many mothers fall asleep while breastfeeding.

In five years' time, the advice might change to pro co-sleeping. It's probably pro co-sleeping now in some countries. Half the world can't afford separate sleeping space anyway, so I don't imagine the advice in all countries is anti co-sleeping. I was advised to put my newborn to sleep face up, whereas in the recent past the advice had been that it was fine or even preferable to put newborns to sleep face down. A case of "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". Although to the midwife's credit she did say the advice had changed to its complete opposite. She also made me listen to a lecture saying not to smoke, when nobody in the house had ever smoked and nobody was allowed to smoke in the house or near the baby, as I told her. But the rules are the rules. "I'm just doing my job", etc. (She didn't say that. I didn't say anything either, after I'd told her that even if she was going to advise me that smoking was okay I still wouldn't do it!)

The prosecution's citing things such as that CM was advised not to co-sleep, as every single mother of a newborn who comes into contact with the medical system is advised (as much of the population knows), that she put her baby into a buggy wearing a babygrow, and that she got wet when it was raining, makes the crown's case in favour of a conviction for the very serious crime of manslaughter seem terribly weak. IMO.

Justice for Victoria will mean an inquiry that looks into why her parents were chased and prosecuted and what effects on other families have resulted from the same causes. IMO

Who chased them?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

The prosecution's citing things such as that CM was advised not to co-sleep, as every single mother of a newborn who comes into contact with the medical system is advised (as much of the population knows), that she put her baby into a buggy wearing a babygrow, and that she got wet when it was raining, makes the crown's case in favour of a conviction for the very serious crime of manslaughter seem terribly weak. IMO.

Would Victoria had died if they hadn’t done those things - added to sleeping in a bitterly cold tent in winter?

No, she would not.

IMO

 

[Alyce]

Today's full schedule


www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

Who chased them?

No one at all. Police were searching for a very vulnerable baby.

 

[Carriep]

No one at all. Police were searching for a very vulnerable baby.

According to the Times newspaper, 100 police officers were hunting them on 5 February 2023:

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are outwitting 100 police

Four weeks ago, Constance Marten and Mark Gordon abandoned their car on the M61 near Bolton, walked along the hard shoulder with their newborn baby, and disappe

www.thetimes.com

Article archived here:

https://archive.is/wip/q18iY

"About 100 officers from Scotland Yard and Sussex police are now hunting them"

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Of course many parents co-sleep, and many mothers fall asleep while breastfeeding.

In five years' time, the advice might change to pro co-sleeping. It's probably pro co-sleeping now in some countries. Half the world can't afford separate sleeping space anyway, so I don't imagine the advice in all countries is anti co-sleeping. I was advised to put my newborn to sleep face up, whereas in the recent past the advice had been that it was fine or even preferable to put newborns to sleep face down. A case of "Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia". Although to the midwife's credit she did say the advice had changed to its complete opposite. She also made me listen to a lecture saying not to smoke, when nobody in the house had ever smoked and nobody was allowed to smoke in the house or near the baby, as I told her. But the rules are the rules. "I'm just doing my job", etc. (She didn't say that. I didn't say anything either, after I'd told her that even if she was going to advise me that smoking was okay I still wouldn't do it!)

The prosecution's citing things such as that CM was advised not to co-sleep, as every single mother of a newborn who comes into contact with the medical system is advised (as much of the population knows), that she put her baby into a buggy wearing a babygrow, and that she got wet when it was raining, makes the crown's case in favour of a conviction for the very serious crime of manslaughter seem terribly weak. IMO.

Justice for Victoria will mean an inquiry that looks into why her parents were chased and prosecuted and what effects on other families have resulted from the same causes. IMO

So what was the option after they left a broken down car?
The police identified CM and MG as parents of 4 children removed by the courts due to parenting concerns, with a newborn baby who had had no medical oversight, homeless and in the worst of winter.
Should the police have left it as it was or try their very best to protect a vulnerable infant?
Should they had surrendered at that time, not only would Victoria be alive, but the consequences for them would have been minimal.
They didn't, they felt that they knew better and were determined that Victoria would not be taken. This meant that Victoria lost her life and for that, they need to be prosecuted.
And as for the "falling asleep while breastfeeding", like anything that comes out of CM's mouth, I'll take it with the usual handful of salt.
JMO MOO

 

[CaptainNancy]

There is co-sleeping in a flat bed, baby on top of duvet, or in a cot made to push up to a bed, to prevent / minimise smothering , and there is co sleeping in a tent zipped inside coat.

There is falling asleep breastfeeding sitting supported in a nursing chair or lying flat, and there is breastfeeding in a tent with no back support, nothing to lean against and so tired from racing round the country night after night that you slump forwards.

I was a full on earth-mother breast feeder. I fed in many public spaces, as well as at home. I never once fell asleep while actually feeding. Caring for a newborn is notoriously exhausting, but IME feeding, per se, is not.

JMOO

 

[CaptainNancy]

The police were seeking a vulnerable newborn.

Based on records from Social Services to which we have not been party
And possibly
Based on other information which was in the media at the time but is now presumably sub judice.

 

[bbsaz]

You don't breastfeed in a low ceiling tent sitting up imo. I breastfed and coslept, and when exhausted I lay down and the baby fed lying down too. I would sometimes nod off, as would the baby. I just can't see anyone sitting up to feed in a tent that size, and being so exhausted I fell asleep and smothered my baby. I would lie down if I felt tired. When that exhausted even sitting up is too much, especially without back support. Imo she died from hypothermia and they have invented a more tolerable explanation, to avoid facing what they have done. Or died from the unsafe sleeping environment, brought on by their own neglegent choices.

And they weren't chased, that's a very loaded word. The police may have hunted for them, as you do when looking for anything precious, but especially a unregistered newborn who is with two, proven to be, irresponsible adults.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

There is co-sleeping in a flat bed, baby on top of duvet, or in a cot made to push up to a bed, to prevent / minimise smothering , and there is co sleeping in a tent zipped inside coat.

There is falling asleep breastfeeding sitting supported in a nursing chair or lying flat, and there is breastfeeding in a tent with no back support, nothing to lean against and so tired from racing round the country night after night that you slump forwards.

I was a full on earth-mother breast feeder. I fed in many public spaces, as well as at home. I never once fell asleep while actually feeding. Caring for a newborn is notoriously exhausting, but IME feeding, per se, is not.

JMOO

Being reminded of their day to day during their time living rough … did CM get enough nutrition, fluids and rest to actually feed Victoria enough for her to thrive? Wonder, if baby was sleeping from getting full after a feed or sleeping due to lack of milk, lack of energy calories.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

You don't breastfeed in a low ceiling tent sitting up imo. I breastfed and coslept, and when exhausted I lay down and the baby fed lying down too. I would sometimes nod off, as would the baby. I just can't see anyone sitting up to feed in a tent that size, and being so exhausted I fell asleep and smothered my baby. I would lie down if I felt tired. When that exhausted even sitting up is too much, especially without back support. Imo she died from hypothermia and they have invented a more tolerable explanation, to avoid facing what they have done. Or died from the unsafe sleeping environment, brought on by their own neglegent choices.

And they weren't chased, that's a very loaded word. The police may have hunted for them, as you do when looking for anything precious, but especially an unregistered newborn who is with two, proven to be, irresponsible adults.

Thinking of the damp floor and damp cold air inside that tiny tent. Typically would have those foam pads to insulate the sleeping bags from cold wet ground.

 

[bbsaz]

Thinking of the damp floor and damp cold air inside that tiny tent. Typically would have those foam pads to insulate the sleeping bags from cold wet ground.

Yet despite being extremely wealthy, they didn't buy appropriate camping gear. Beggars belief

 

[bbsaz]

They can spent £300 on a taxi, but can't buy quality camping gear to keep their newborn warm

 

[Skigh]

.

They can spent £300 on a taxi, but can't buy quality camping gear to keep their newborn warm

No warm clothes or a proper carrycot . That poor baby must have been cold and miserable .

 

[bbsaz]

.

No warm clothes or a proper carrycot . That poor baby must have been cold and miserable .

And potentially very hungry if Constance wasn't looking after herself to make enough milk. You have to drink SO much, your thirst is unquenchable when BFing, and it would have been hard to keep on top of that intake when on the go and in hiding (all their choice of course)

 

[Maltesepuppy]

You don't breastfeed in a low ceiling tent sitting up imo. I breastfed and coslept, and when exhausted I lay down and the baby fed lying down too. I would sometimes nod off, as would the baby. I just can't see anyone sitting up to feed in a tent that size, and being so exhausted I fell asleep and smothered my baby. I would lie down if I felt tired. When that exhausted even sitting up is too much, especially without back support. Imo she died from hypothermia and they have invented a more tolerable explanation, to avoid facing what they have done. Or died from the unsafe sleeping environment, brought on by their own neglegent choices.

And they weren't chased, that's a very loaded word. The police may have hunted for them, as you do when looking for anything precious, but especially a unregistered newborn who is with two, proven to be, irresponsible adults.

BBM
that has been my thoughts too. Give an explanation for a death "that could happen to anyone".
CM has shown to be quite the liar, so who's to say that the death happened as she said.
For the record, even IF this was the case I still blame them.
Breastfeeding in a cold and damp tent, in winter with no proper nutrition and sanitation is hardly responsible and caring parenting.

JMO MOO