UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Skigh]

Any chance that CM could have become, or is pregnant again in between the birth of the dec. baby and her arrest?
speculation.

She would have had the baby by now. I think it would have been reported in the media,either officially or if for some reason a press ban ,leaked via social media.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If she birthed a baby on or around 28 December and was arrested on 27 February it is possible but very unlikely

Agreed, it's not impossible but highly improbable.

Two babies born within 12 months is common enough that there's a term that I'm not going to say because it's considered derogatory (not sure if it's supposed to be derogatory or a compliment).

 

[dotr]

Agreed, it's not impossible but highly improbable.

Two babies born within 12 months is common enough that there's a term that I'm not going to say because it's considered derogatory (not sure if it's supposed to be derogatory or a compliment).

Looked it up, lol, true- it is best not repeated!

 

[Nikynoo]

Looked it up, lol, true- it is best not repeated!

My granddaughters were born within 12 months of each other.

 

[JTT]

Another term as well as the term we aren't repeating for two babies born within 12 months is "rainbow baby" that denotes a baby born after a previous baby died. (I was a rainbow baby, but I don't think the term existed then.) Some of the same psychology may also apply when a mother has lost a previous baby to SS.

 

[wowiezowie]

The pair had an emergency interview after arrested but wouldn't answer questions regarding the location of the baby, instead Gordon demanded food and then after receiving some asked for sweets!
Unbelievable?!? Shows where their priorities lay.

 

[Skigh]

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They then travelled on January 7 into Colchester before moving into east London.

'It is clear we suggest that they do not want to stay in any one location for any extended period of time presumably in case they are recognised,' Mr Little said.

After buying a kebab, Gordon went into an Argos in East Ham and purchased a buggy and then went to Boots to buy a dummy, the court heard.

The baby was allegedly wearing only a babygrow.

In another Argos he purchased a blue tent, pillows and sleeping bags before they all went for a meal at a Brick Lane restaurant.

After dinner they dumped the buggy they had purchased earlier that day and put the baby in a red Lidl bag.

'It would appear that, at this time, and on a number of other occasions the baby was transferred and carried in a Lidl 'bag for life' where it would appear it spent much of its life before it died,' Mr Little said.

'It would have been plain to the defendants, you must have thought, that this was an utterly inappropriate way to care for any child, and remember at all times in this case the time of year and the weather conditions.'

On January 8, the couple were said to have taken a taxi from London to Newhaven in East Sussex, paying £475 in cash.

 

[Alyce]

Agreed, it's not impossible but highly improbable.

Two babies born within 12 months is common enough that there's a term that I'm not going to say because it's considered derogatory (not sure if it's supposed to be derogatory or a compliment).

Or just beyond the 12 month mark, but basically one per year. Not going further with this thought but it is easily researched.

 

[JTT]

Tom Little KC may have worked at the Treasury but I don't reckon he's doing that well. First he says the precise date of birth is known only to the defendants and then he reads an interview transcript in which CM says Victoria was born on Christmas Eve. If she chooses to go into the witness box, it's possible the prosecution will challenge her and put it to her that she has a tendency to make stuff up, or to forget stuff and then to swear blind that what really happened was whatever she's imagining on the spur of the moment, and that therefore nothing she says about anything is worth giving credence to unless it's corroborated. But it's also possible they won't contest the birthdate, in which case he may be thought to have been going super over the top today. There was "as if she was refuse" too.

Similarly if Victoria was born on 24 December and the couple left the accommodation on 26 December, some uncleared-up "food remnants" left behind might not be much of a surprise.

The fact that the placenta was in the Peugeot 206 on 5 January, though? When did they buy that car? Why keep a placenta? Or maybe she gave birth in the car even while they were staying in the accommodation.

Do the grounds for three of the five charges (manslaughter, cruelty, and causing or allowing death) perhaps depend on the idea that since they were on the run (not being wanted for any offence), they were avoiding the SS whom they knew would take their child, and it was cold, it must have been criminal negligence on their part that caused Victoria's death? If that's so, the charges may not even survive half-time because the judge may well take a "where on earth is the evidence?" view.

The perversion of course of justice charge might also fall at that point. I'm not sure what they are supposed to have done that did pervert the course of justice. After all, they didn't burn or otherwise dispose of their daughter's body.

Probably one of the three charges mentioned above would have to be proved for PotCoJ also to be proved.

^ Total speculation.

 

[bobbymkii]

Tom Little KC may have worked at the Treasury but I don't reckon he's doing that well. First he says the precise date of birth is known only to the defendants and then he reads an interview transcript in which CM says Victoria was born on Christmas Eve. If she chooses to go into the witness box, it's possible the prosecution will challenge her and put it to her that she has a tendency to make stuff up, or to forget stuff and then to swear blind that what really happened was whatever she's imagining on the spur of the moment, and that therefore nothing she says about anything is worth giving credence to unless it's corroborated. But it's also possible they won't contest the birthdate, in which case he may be thought to have been going super over the top today. There was "as if she was refuse" too.

Similarly if Victoria was born on 24 December and the couple left the accommodation on 26 December, some uncleared-up "food remnants" left behind might not be much of a surprise.

The fact that the placenta was in the Peugeot 206 on 5 January, though? When did they buy that car? Why keep a placenta? Or maybe she gave birth in the car even while they were staying in the accommodation.

Do the grounds for three of the five charges (manslaughter, cruelty, and causing or allowing death) perhaps depend on the idea that since they were on the run (not being wanted for any offence), they were avoiding the SS whom they knew would take their child, and it was cold, it must have been criminal negligence on their part that caused Victoria's death? If that's so, the charges may not even survive half-time because the judge may well take a "where on earth is the evidence?" view.

The perversion of course of justice charge might also fall at that point. I'm not sure what they are supposed to have done that did pervert the course of justice. After all, they didn't burn or otherwise dispose of their daughter's body.

Probably one of the three charges mentioned above would have to be proved for PotCoJ also to be proved.

^ Total speculation.

I'm guessing that he hasn't finished yet and will go into more detail tomorrow about how the evidence fits each charge?

 

[irnbru]

If CM subscribes to the sort of 'natural' parenting it sounds from some of the reports she might do (somewhere today I have seen a report that she refused covid vaccination on the grounds that she and MG aren't keen on vaccines etc as they live a 'natural' life), I can think of a couple of possible reasons to keep a placenta for a while after a birth. Some people do what they call a lotus birth, where the cord isn't cut and the baby remains attached to the placenta until it naturally separates. Some people eat part of the placenta (very common among non human animals iirc!).

I don't know enough about the science to know how accurately the date of a birth could be estimated from a found placenta, tbh, certainly not enough to know whether examination and testing of a placenta found on 05 January could tell whether a birth was 24th or 28th December.

Tom Little KC may have worked at the Treasury but I don't reckon he's doing that well. First he says the precise date of birth is known only to the defendants and then he reads an interview transcript in which CM says Victoria was born on Christmas Eve. If she chooses to go into the witness box, it's possible the prosecution will challenge her and put it to her that she has a tendency to make stuff up, or to forget stuff and then to swear blind that what really happened was whatever she's imagining on the spur of the moment, and that therefore nothing she says about anything is worth giving credence to unless it's corroborated. But it's also possible they won't contest the birthdate, in which case he may be thought to have been going super over the top today. There was "as if she was refuse" too.

Similarly if Victoria was born on 24 December and the couple left the accommodation on 26 December, some uncleared-up "food remnants" left behind might not be much of a surprise.

The fact that the placenta was in the Peugeot 206 on 5 January, though? When did they buy that car? Why keep a placenta? Or maybe she gave birth in the car even while they were staying in the accommodation.

Do the grounds for three of the five charges (manslaughter, cruelty, and causing or allowing death) perhaps depend on the idea that since they were on the run (not being wanted for any offence), they were avoiding the SS whom they knew would take their child, and it was cold, it must have been criminal negligence on their part that caused Victoria's death? If that's so, the charges may not even survive half-time because the judge may well take a "where on earth is the evidence?" view.

The perversion of course of justice charge might also fall at that point. I'm not sure what they are supposed to have done that did pervert the course of justice. After all, they didn't burn or otherwise dispose of their daughter's body.

Probably one of the three charges mentioned above would have to be proved for PotCoJ also to be proved.

^ Total speculation.

 

[dotr]

rbbm.

Wealthy woman and partner ‘kept baby in Lidl bag before dumping her’

The jury was told how Constance Marten 36, and Mark Gordon, 49 travelled across England in cars and taxis, with the newborn baby tucked underneath Marten’s coat and later kept in a Lidl “bag-for-life"

www.mylondon.news

Constance Marten's brother Tobias Marten and her mother Virginie de Selliers arrive at the Old Bailey

''Mr Little said: “The second defendant comes from a wealthy family. She has not had a deprived upbringing. She had potential access to money and whatever help she needed.”

The jury was told how the couple had travelled across England in cars and taxis, with the newborn baby tucked underneath Marten’s coat and later kept in a Lidl “bag-for-life”.

On December 20 2022, they had booked into a holiday cottage in Northumberland, leaving it in a “disgusting state”, jurors heard.''


''Marten and Gordon allegedly “smelt very unpleasant” upon their arrest in Brighton on February 27 and had furniture stuffing and paper with their clothing for extra warmth.''

 

[Alyce]

If CM subscribes to the sort of 'natural' parenting it sounds from some of the reports she might do (somewhere today I have seen a report that she refused covid vaccination on the grounds that she and MG aren't keen on vaccines etc as they live a 'natural' life), I can think of a couple of possible reasons to keep a placenta for a while after a birth. Some people do what they call a lotus birth, where the cord isn't cut and the baby remains attached to the placenta until it naturally separates. Some people eat part of the placenta (very common among non human animals iirc!).

I don't know enough about the science to know how accurately the date of a birth could be estimated from a found placenta, tbh, certainly not enough to know whether examination and testing of a placenta found on 05 January could tell whether a birth was 24th or 28th December.

December 28 was the day their first car,the Suzuki, broke down on the M18, so possibly not that day for the birth.
Unless of course it happened after the breakdown ?



Just adding a link for this info...........




On December 28, 2022 the couple's Suzuki motor vehicle broke down and a Highway Recovery worker went to collect them
'The importance of this evidence is that the recovery driver did not see or hear any baby at any time, nor was any reference made to a baby.

'So you will have to consider in that context any suggestion that the baby had been born at this time. If so, where was it? If so, did they leave it in the car? If so, why leave it in the car?'

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JTT]

From the Daily Mail - another report of the prosecution opening speech:

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"On February 19, the defendants were seen at Stanmer Park nature reserve near Brighton.
'Marten was carrying a very young baby with a wobbly head. The baby had no socks on, no blanket and no hat on,' Mr Little said."

That's 8 days before the arrests, and when Victoria was 8 weeks old if she was born on Christmas Eve.

 

[CocktailQueen]

From the Daily Mail - another report of the prosecution opening speech:

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"On February 19, the defendants were seen at Stanmer Park nature reserve near Brighton.
'Marten was carrying a very young baby with a wobbly head. The baby had no socks on, no blanket and no hat on,' Mr Little said."

That's 8 days before the arrests, and when Victoria was 8 weeks old if she was born on Christmas Eve.

Is it possible the baby was already dead when she was carrying it around? Though maybe not as its head wouldn’t be wobbly.

 

[Alyce]

She claimed the baby was born on Christmas Eve 2022 in Cumbria and was to be called Victoria.

Marten said that she had died three days after the car exploded, before correcting this to five or seven days.

She said: 'I had her in my jacket, I hadn't slept properly in quite a few days, I fell asleep holding her sitting up and she - when I woke up she wasn't alive.


So by her calculation this would be January 10 or 12.



but then.....


On February 19, the defendants were seen at Stanmer Park nature reserve near Brighton.

'Marten was carrying a very young baby with a wobbly head. The baby had no socks on, no blanket and no hat on,' Mr Little said.

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JTT]

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If Victoria died after 5-7 days after the car fire, then the baby seen on 19 February by the witness couldn't have been a live Victoria.

"After the body was found Marten answered police questions for the first time, the court heard.

<modsnip - snipped for 10% copyright rule, please see link>

 

[Skigh]

Constance Marten told police baby died when she fell asleep with her

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of fleeing across the country in a bid to prevent little Victoria being taken away from them after losing custody of all their previous children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Marten and Gordon, who were described at the Old Bailey as 'cruel and arrogant' parents, left the girl in a disused shed inside a shopping bag covered in rubbish while the mother claimed she 'debated whether to cremate her' with a bottle of petrol.

 

[CocktailQueen]

If CM subscribes to the sort of 'natural' parenting it sounds from some of the reports she might do (somewhere today I have seen a report that she refused covid vaccination on the grounds that she and MG aren't keen on vaccines etc as they live a 'natural' life), I can think of a couple of possible reasons to keep a placenta for a while after a birth. Some people do what they call a lotus birth, where the cord isn't cut and the baby remains attached to the placenta until it naturally separates. Some people eat part of the placenta (very common among non human animals iirc!).

I don't know enough about the science to know how accurately the date of a birth could be estimated from a found placenta, tbh, certainly not enough to know whether examination and testing of a placenta found on 05 January could tell whether a birth was 24th or 28th December.

From the daily mail article somewhere above it says CM said:

‘She said the car had exploded when they were driving and she had the placenta with her because she intended on burying it as a 'religious thing because you can bury it and grow a tree from it- it's just something we do.'

 

[JTT]

Is it possible the baby was already dead when she was carrying it around? Though maybe not as its head wouldn’t be wobbly.

Yes and she may have been holding the head of the baby who had died aged ~3 weeks as if the baby were still 3 weeks old, giving a witness the impression of a wobbly head. What a terribly sad story this is ....