UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Alyce]

Today's podcast just dropped, haven't listened to it yet

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com

link for podcast again

 

[DSleuth]

“A very posh woman who says she's on holiday in the UK, an ex pat, whatever, I can think of loads of posh related cover stories which would have allowed her to give birth in a hospital and not be immediately leapt on by social services.”

People not resident or working in the UK are not entitled to free NHS treatment except immediate A&E. As an expat or holidaymaker she would have been asked for payment , so unless she had loads of cash in her, that would have meant a traceable card.

The traveller story enabled her to claim resident status without proof of address.

The hospital may not have accepted a large cash payment from her even if she did have sufficient cash and I think it’s even less likely they’d have taken payment in cash without seeing some form of ID which would obviously be problematic for her.

 

[Alyce]

Ah, I see what you're saying. My understanding was that while on the run she had payments coming in which were equivalent to the annual salary of your average person. Whether those were very regular (monthly) or less regular (annual) I'm working off the basis that they were automatic, rather than that they had been specifically requested from the trust at that time. But you're right, I'm not sure that information has been released.

That's my take on it too.
Discretionary trusts can make regular / automatic payments into the beneficiary's bank account and that could have been how C was receiving this money, rather than by making a specific request to the trustees.
In fact, looking at the amounts quoted, I would say the two payments quoted from December and January are more likely to have been standard annual or even quarterly payments.

Ms Marten received a payment into her Metrobank account of £15,590 from a family trust fund.
On January 3 2023, another payment was received from a different trust, this time for £3,400.


www.telegraph.co.uk


Most people requesting a payout from a Trust would ask for a specific figure - eg £15,000, £3,000.

 

[DSleuth]

link for podcast again

Thank you. Now they believe I’m over 18 I’ve finally got to listen to it.

 

[irnbru]

It doesn't seem like CM would have been able to present in such a way as to avoid concern, whether she went to an NHS hospital under an assumed name or tried to buy privacy and silence at a private provider. All practitioners working with pregnant women and newborns have safeguarding training and will have picked up on tells. And CM would not have been able to pretend to anyone that she had been receiving any form of antenatal care, which would ring alarm bells even if turning up heavily pregnant without ID and wanting to pay in cash didn't.

I know we have a lot of information to learn and the case is only just getting started but so far it seems fairly obvious that any cover story these two tried to present would become unravelled pretty fast.

 

[Cardgame]

Do we know if CM is physically present in court this morning?

 

[wowiezowie]

Do we know if CM is physically present in court this morning?

Well she wasn't in court Thursday and Friday and didn't even bother to watch the proceedings on a video link which was offered to her. Such strange behaviour.

 

[JTT]

Good morning everyone. A few points...

1. MG visited Sheffield police station on 19 December 2022 and was arrested on 27 February 2023, a little over 3 months later. In January 2024 there was a hearing at Bromley magistrates' court regarding an alleged non-notification offence. What was the alleged date of that offence? Is he on a 3-month schedule?

2. Not sure whether this has already been observed here, but CM in her police interview is alleged to have said "I wanted to turn myself in at the time. I've been debating it". She doesn't say "we" have been debating it, discussing it, talking about it. She says SHE had.

<modsnip - discussions elsewhere are not approved sources>

 

[JTT]

Well she wasn't in court Thursday and Friday and didn't even bother to watch the proceedings on a video link which was offered to her. Such strange behaviour.

She was in conference with her legal team according to the judge. Perhaps they're considering applying for a writ of mandamus.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

19 December to 27 February = just over 2 months, not three

He was supposed to check in weekly at least IMO wherever he was located

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She was in conference with her legal team according to the judge. Perhaps they're considering applying for a writ of mandamus.

What does that mean please?

 

[JTT]

Re. possible dates of Victoria's short life:

* CM says she gave birth on 24 December
* on 28 December a recovery driver says he did not hear or see a baby
* CM says her daughter died on 9 January, and I think it is alleged to have been shortly after then (even the same day?) that she bought petrol
* on 19 February a witness says he saw CM carrying a very young baby with a wobbly head, which he touched, and that the baby wasn't wearing a hat

I can't see where the prosecution are going. They aren't suggesting murder or preparation for murder.

 

[JTT]

What does that mean please?

It's my old-fashioned way of referring to what's now called a mandatory order, which in this context is an order by a higher court to a lower court to do something. They're rare. But e.g. if there is a huge dingdong battle over whether certain evidence is admissible or over some other decision by the trial judge... I don't mean to suggest this is likely, but I do assume that what the judge said was true, namely she has been away from court because she is conferring with her legal team. The only reason to do that is to discuss a possible action.

 

[Alyce]

​

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:47 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:30 - 10:52

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

Link for today's coverage from The Argus

Trial due to begin 11.30 hrs

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues

Updates from The Old Bailey as the Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Themac101]

I didn't know anything about making meth until today.
Apparently meth labs can be and are run in all sorts of places, including car boots, and they can and do start fires.
Which may or may not be germane in this case.
The story of the car fire on the M61 was dramatic and the finding of the placenta in the burnt-out shell was even more so. The original story was that a woman had probably given birth on the back seat of the car, where there was not only a placenta but also "other signs of childbirth". This was before CM's name was published.

I took the prosaic view that the fire was caused solely by the car being an old banger that should never have been on the road, but who knows? I wonder what the cause of the fire is recorded as by the insurer (if there was one), or the fire service, or police, or whoever else is supposed to investigate such things, if anyone is.

Meth is very rare in the UK, we don't have a big user base for it here outside of certain sexual/party subcultures so its never taken root here. It is very common in Florida though. Just food for thought.

 

[JTT]

19 December to 27 February = just over 2 months, not three

He was supposed to check in weekly at least IMO wherever he was located

Oops, yes. (And I've only just trained myself too to stop using the number for the previous year, well into January, sometimes even February!)

No fixed abode would mean weekly reports. (Is that what you mean, or do you suspect there may have been other reasons?) Change of address would require notification within three days, so perhaps that's it. I wonder when his last report was before 19 December. I don't know how "regularly" is interpreted in the following: "Any other addresses or premises where you stay regularly (i.e. at least seven nights of the year or where you stay for two or more periods which adds up to seven days)". But that's from NACRO and not statutory.

Advice for people on the Sex Offender Register

Explore our advice for people on the sex offender register. Speak confidentially to one of our advisors. See more for information and guides.

www.nacro.org.uk

 

[JennieM]

Part of the evidence given ( not reported by The Argus but available within the Podcast - link given again below in post 843 ) stated that after C and M were evicted from a flat in London, they lived in a camper van. They accumulated thousands of £ in fines for the van. C asked her family to pay these fines but they refused.

An interesting contrast with the trust fund payments which we know she received in December and January.

the jury heard that on 22 December 2022, Ms Marten received a payment into her Metrobank account of £15,590 from a family trust fund.
On January 3 2023, another payment was received from a different trust, this time for £3,400.


www.telegraph.co.uk

I am surprised they didn’t block her payments while she was on the run.

 

[Alyce]

I am surprised they didn’t block her payments while she was on the run.

Dependent on the set up that might not have been possible.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It's my old-fashioned way of referring to what's now called a mandatory order, which in this context is an order by a higher court to a lower court to do something. They're rare. But e.g. if there is a huge dingdong battle over whether certain evidence is admissible or over some other decision by the trial judge... I don't mean to suggest this is likely, but I do assume that what the judge said was true, namely she has been away from court because she is conferring with her legal team. The only reason to do that is to discuss a possible action.

Oh I see! I searched the term of course but then thought you meant the whole case could be dealt with in magistrates or something.