UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

It says they were planning to buy a flat in London. Did she have enough funds available and accessible? Or would her family pay for it?

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon are on trial for the manslaughter of their newborn baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think the plan to rent a flat was before they were recognised, she had the means to and I think she was saying that was their plan, but then the police and hunt was on and it changed the plan.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

This seems very unlikely - the type of labour you're speaking as to is really filled with desperate young working age men who are fit, healthy, and single. They share rooms and bunk.

It's hard to rent a place nowadays. Landlords are putting such scrutiny in place, they want job references, previous landlord references, up front payments, bank transfers only, copies of passports, and guarantors.

I guess there's the 'spare room' type accommodation where a greedy or unscrupulous landlord would welcome an incoming ton of cash but really with a tiny baby in tow? Most would baulk at that.

I think CM and MG were in a hopeless situation and to be generous, were / are possibly so incredibly disaffected that they wouldn't turn to any form of authority even to the cost of their own or their child's life. Sadly, they took that stance of their own adult selves and applied it to the most vulnerable being in existence - a newborn baby.

JMO MOO

Maybe all she had to do was name-drop? She likely speaks well, having the upbringing and education she did. It's amazing what a certain way of speaking and name-dropping can do.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I wish that too. Everytime I read the word 'it' in the reprting of the prosecutors speech it made me cringe. She was a human being not an it, and his constant referring to her as 'it' does absolutely nothing to humanise her to the jury.

Ditto

 

[rightsaidfred]

There's not much squatting left nowadays, now that it's been criminalised.

Another option would be MG could work off the cards for a landlord in lieu of paying rent, such as in a restaurant maybe, while CM looked after their baby in the flat, or in a room, perhaps in a "House of Multiple Occupation". There's a huge "informal" underbelly in British society.

(^ Total utter speculation. Just saying this may have been an option.)

Any thoughts of an HMO are fantasy IMHO as

- babies are about as welcome in shared houses as a ham and cheese sandwich at Passover. They cry in the night!

- a lot of house shares won't take couples

- it would bring them into contact with more people, one of whom would inevitably recognise and report them

- there's an acute housing shortage, and even young professionals on stable incomes struggle to find anywhere. Last time I was advertising my spare room, I had over 50 applications - and inevitably I had to turn away some candidates who were perfect on paper - we're near a hospital so I was turning away doctors with impeccable renting records for instance. No way would a couple with a baby have even got a viewing. The person who I took in the end had been sofa surfing for 3 months because they couldn't find anything despite good references etc. Person before that was a hospital worker whose landlord was selling up and evicting, and was on the verge of sleeping on her granny's couch when I took her.

The rental market out there is brutal, and families like MG, CM and Victoria simply won't get a look in.

(As a side note, if you've got a spare room, no kids and enjoy a bit of company, taking in a lodger is a really good way to ease the housing crisis and make some tax free money at the same time)

 

[Lucy6226]

Would this be possible in a case where a parent was a convicted sex offender?

Yes, given the crimes are historic and not against children. He would have to take responsibility for the crimes, denial doesn't go down well when you've been convicted! IMO

 

[JTT]

What has been reported about the taking of three of CM and MG's four previous children (perhaps in a single action) in 2020? <modsnip - not an approved source>

It may or may not be relevant that March 2020 was when homeless people were removed from the streets in Britain, and in many other countries, in connection with public health policy.

 

[Alyce]

Ms Marten had met Mr Gordon in 2016.

The following year, while pregnant, she attended hospital - told staff she was living in a campervan

That winter she presented at another hospital in the early stages of labour,

She gave birth under the assumed identity of Isabella O’Brien

It subsequently emerged that the couple had been living in a tent filled with black bin bags and bottles of urine.



www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Complete speculation, wondering if the couple might have had some kind of hoarding issue in the past?

very possible

 

[Alyce]

in 2021 Ms Marten was pregnant again.

Social services arranged for her to have an urgent scan, but she disappeared and emailed them to say she was receiving private healthcare.

After the child was born Ms Marten left the baby with nurses and discharged herself from hospital, resulting in a record of child abandonment.

Constance Marten had four children taken into care before going on run with baby, court hears

Mother accused of manslaughter after her fifth child, a daughter, died while couple were off grid

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

in January 2022 care and placement orders were made in respect of all four of the couple’s children.

Mr Little said it would have been apparent to the defendants that any further children they had would also be taken from them by the authorities.


www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

On Feb 19 a witness saw them carrying a “very young baby with a wobbly head”, with no socks, no hat and no blanket.

The witness also spotted their blue tent close by and said to them: “You have to be brave sleeping in a tent overnight in this weather.”

Constance Marten had four children taken into care before going on run with baby, court hears

Mother accused of manslaughter after her fifth child, a daughter, died while couple were off grid

www.telegraph.co.uk

If the witness was speaking to them, at very close quarters, that, to me, indicates Victoria was alive on February 19.


MOO of course

 

[GreekGal]

Any thoughts of an HMO are fantasy IMHO as

- babies are about as welcome in shared houses as a ham and cheese sandwich at Passover. They cry in the night!

- a lot of house shares won't take couples

- it would bring them into contact with more people, one of whom would inevitably recognise and report them

- there's an acute housing shortage, and even young professionals on stable incomes struggle to find anywhere. Last time I was advertising my spare room, I had over 50 applications - and inevitably I had to turn away some candidates who were perfect on paper - we're near a hospital so I was turning away doctors with impeccable renting records for instance. No way would a couple with a baby have even got a viewing. The person who I took in the end had been sofa surfing for 3 months because they couldn't find anything despite good references etc. Person before that was a hospital worker whose landlord was selling up and evicting, and was on the verge of sleeping on her granny's couch when I took her.

The rental market out there is brutal, and families like MG, CM and Victoria simply won't get a look in.

(As a side note, if you've got a spare room, no kids and enjoy a bit of company, taking in a lodger is a really good way to ease the housing crisis and make some tax free money at the same time)

It's possible that they knew a lot of underground people and had access to drug dens or what I would.call "smack houses" where a few quid in cash would be welcomed for a roof over their heads. BTW I have a particular interest in this case as I knew one of the defendants very well for a few years prior to them meeting one another. JMO
MOO

 

[Alyce]

the 36-year-old gave differing accounts to police over when the baby died and eventually settled on January 11.

The court heard it was difficult to determine a cause of death but that the pathology was consistent with death caused by hypothermia or exposure.

Mum 'bought petrol to cremate baby in woods after finding her dead', trial hears

WARNING: DISTRESSING CONTENT A trial at the Old Bailey heard how Constance Marten told police she had brought petrol to cremate the remains of baby Victoria, who was found in a plastic bag at an allotment in Brighton in March last year

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Link for today's trial

Updates: Marten and Gordon 'prioritised their own relationship', prosecutor says

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon is set to continue over death of baby Victoria

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[JTT]

Going back a few years, the prosecutor has asserted that CM met MG in 2016 and the first pregnancy he has referred to was in 2017:

Constance Marten had four children taken into care before going on run with baby, court hears

Mother accused of manslaughter after her fifth child, a daughter, died while couple were off grid

www.telegraph.co.uk

""The jury was told Ms Marten was from a “wealthy background” and had met Mr Gordon in 2016.

The following year, while pregnant, she had attended a hospital and told staff she was living in a campervan nearby.

Three months later social services issued an alert because they were unable to locate Ms Marten and were concerned for her welfare and that of the unborn child.

That winter she presented at another hospital in the early stages of labour, speaking in a fake Irish accent and telling staff she was from a Traveller family and had been brought up in a caravan.

She gave birth under the assumed identity of Isabella O’Brien and her true identity was only established later when social workers made the link with a national alert."

Why did the SS hunt CM in 2017, even issuing a national alert?

 

[Legally Bland]

Why did the SS hunt CM in 2017, even issuing a national alert?

NHS England » Our National Patient Safety Alerts

www.england.nhs.uk

 

[Alyce]

Agreed. It has also been reported that after giving birth to one of the previous babies, the defendant discharged herself from hospital and left the baby with nurses thus causing them to record a case of child abandonment. This would be a lot more relevant to the case I think than MG's previous spent conviction although I am sure that there will be other instances and red flags which will come out further into the trial.

JMO MOO

US police finally caught up with him a month later on June 13, 1989, when he confessed to both raids and was jailed for 40 years.

In 2010, having served half of his sentence, he was deported to the UK and put on the sex offenders register.

Mother raped by man on the run with aristocrat tells of her ordeal

Birmingham-born rapist Mark Gordon was jailed for 40 years after breaking into a neighbour's home in Florida in 1989, where he was living with his family aged 14. He is on the run with his partner and baby

www.dailymail.co.uk

by my calculations, he still has almost 6 years to go on his sentence. ( dependent on how much time on remand is taken off the charge - arrested 1989, convicted 1990 )

 

[Twittens]

Ms Marten had met Mr Gordon in 2016.

The following year, while pregnant, she attended hospital - told staff she was living in a campervan

That winter she presented at another hospital in the early stages of labour,

She gave birth under the assumed identity of Isabella O’Brien

It subsequently emerged that the couple had been living in a tent filled with black bin bags and bottles of urine.



www.telegraph.co.uk

That's a very grim image (the bold bit).

Considering how determined they seem to be to live life on their own terms, reject conventional lifestyles, avoid standard wellbeing choices like antenatal care, vaccination etc, and generally evade the input of the authorities, it's interesting to me how often CM seems to have turned up voluntarily at NHS facilities - not just in 2017 to give birth to Child 1, but then later with Child 4 (the one she left behind, having discharged herself), at a minimum.

I wonder if she came to see NHS workers, with their statutory duties, as being as much her enemy as SS, which would explain the stubborn refusal to get help or care for Victoria.

There's no humour in any of this, but I can't help a hollow laugh at the idea of her being spotted faking an Irish accent. I guess she wasn't quite such a "gifted actress" after all.

JMO/MOO

 

[GreekGal]

US police finally caught up with him a month later on June 13, 1989, when he confessed to both raids and was jailed for 40 years.

In 2010, having served half of his sentence, he was deported to the UK and put on the sex offenders register.

Mother raped by man on the run with aristocrat tells of her ordeal

Birmingham-born rapist Mark Gordon was jailed for 40 years after breaking into a neighbour's home in Florida in 1989, where he was living with his family aged 14. He is on the run with his partner and baby

www.dailymail.co.uk

by my calculations, he still has almost 6 years to go on his sentence. ( dependent on how much time on remand is taken off the charge - arrested 1989, convicted 1990 )

Apologies. My error. I should not have said "spent" although my thoughts remain the same regarding the primary reason(s) why their children were taken into care.

 

[JTT]

Updates: Marten and Gordon 'prioritised their own relationship', prosecutor says

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon is set to continue over death of baby Victoria

www.theargus.co.uk

" 11:44am
Count three is causing or allowing the death of a child.
Mr Little told the jury that he invites them to reject Marten's account of the cause of death that we heard yesterday.
The prosecution also raised questions about whether the baby was born on Christmas Eve, 2022.
Mr Little said: "By the time of their arrest the defendants were filthy, exhausted and starving.
"They were plainly in no position to look after a child and this would have been obvious to them.
"The risk to the child of serious physical harm was obvious, especially in the light of the vulnerability of the baby and previous warnings."

This isn't the first time the word "vulnerable" has been used in this case. All babies are vulnerable. Might Victoria have had a physical abnormality or unusual weakness, or been at risk of having one, perhaps in light of her siblings' records?