Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[Pisces Cloud]

Welcome to Websleuths, great first post!!

Definite possible link, I think there has to be a good reason he went up there to die. Now whether it's because of the plane crash, the moors murders, or something connected to what you've suggested I don't know. It could have just been a regular haunt of his in his youth, or somewhere he and a sweetheart visited.

In my mind there's no doubt it was suicide, and that he specifically chose that spot in advance. Though why he had a cash and a return rail ticket I don't know... I wonder if anything has come of the boxing connection, surely they'd know by now?

I haven't heard anything since I last posted and so I'm also none the wiser as to what the heck is going on. A strange case indeed.

 

[dotr]

That's not what I said - I don't dispute that all the pictures are of the same man; however, they do not give a reliably consistent indication of his appearance. CoverMeCagney makes the very good suggestion of publishing pictures of the corpse or a reconstruction of his face.

Although that is not at all what you said, or implied- your post inspired me to entertain a different train of thought!
A sensible and logical thing to do, would be as you suggested, to release a PM photo of the unidentified man.imo.

 

[Al Ka]

I think that some of the difficulty in identifying this man may be due in part to the misleading information that the police have given in their appeals to the public in their attempts to identify him. They have described him as having both blue and brown eyes on separate occasions. He is also said to have no scars - although it has been revealed eventually that he had a 4 inch metal plate attached to his left femur which, according to at least one press report could have been fitted as recently as 2015 - less than a year before he died. It simply isn't plausible that he didn't have a scar as a result of this operation.

I really would not blame the police for the information out there, there have done some tremendous work on this and other cases, but rather sift through news from creative journalists in media. I have seen numerous erroneous articles in different cases where media describes injuries on one side and there are on another, or position of tattoos at wrong places etc. News media tend to copy from each other whenever anything sounds fascinating and with it those unreliable news or details spread widely, which unfortunately happens a lot.

I am glad though that this case is still somewhat in public eye and that it hit the wider audience after "fascinating" plane crash story got spread (by media) and caught people imagination.

The published cctv pictures of this individual are not particularly helpfull - some are just of too poor quality to be useful and others are plain confusing - most show a man with a roundish head but one shows him with a quite distinctive long looking head - they could easily be two different people.

I was somewhat puzzled by different images of him too and also thought this could be two different people. Again, we have to bear in mind that those CCTV images are from two different sources and again, thinking of other cases, many images, especially photos gets distorted when copied and cropped by different people and published. We have seen some photos of faces out there looking way too wide or long compared to their other images. I do think though that video walking of him down the stairs on the station looks more realistic than those 2 still images of him in front of shop with prolonged head where he looks quit elderly and frail. What also strike me, when he is seen walking (on video), he seems physically quite ok, almost strong. No limping visible, no walking stick, no glasses and a bit bigger chested.

Walking up the quiet hill in nature, even though was getting dark, rainy and cold, there is no doubt in my mind that he went there to die that afternoon.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

Not connected to the case, but there's been quite a bit of drama that way on during the past 24 hours. A big fire over the moors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-36109887

 

[dotr]

Not connected to the case, but there's been quite a bit of drama that way on during the past 24 hours. A big fire over the moors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-36109887

Has the area been subject to fires before this one? Odd coincidence, hope it gets extinguished soon and with no casualties!

 

[trendsetter]

I really would not blame the police for the information out there....

Well, the only GMP website pages related to this case that I've found haven't been updated since 22nd December 2015 even though much more information has come to light since then; furthermore these pages don't have even the most basic information such as height, weight and eye colour. The police are relying on the press and TV to reach the public and don't seem to realise how unreliable this method is.

 

[trendsetter]

removed duplicated message

 

[ShakerSince92]

Has the area been subject to fires before this one? Odd coincidence, hope it gets extinguished soon and with no casualties!

View attachment 92444

The areas around here can be prone to fires especially in the dry conditions we have seen over the last week. Would be very very surprised if there is any link here.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Has the area been subject to fires before this one?

Fires, accidental or deliberate, are common on moorland. The soils on moorland are essentially rough grass or heather over a layer of peat that can be many feet deep. In dry conditions it's highly flammable and once well alight can smoulder for days or weeks underground. Many fires are caused by human carelessness, but there are also carefully controlled burns of specific areas of moorland. This is done to burn off the old, woody heather and other ground cover and to make room for new shoots. It's these that ground-nesting game birds such as grouse feed on so its about habitat management for shooting purposes.

 

[dotr]

Thanks for the informative post, MelmothTheLost!
Wondering if the UID man previously went grouse shooting in the area?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/19/the-mystery-corpse-of-saddleworth-moor/

Since December 12 there has been a body lying on a slab in Royal Oldham Hospital morgue. It is that of a man close to 6ft, aged somewhere between 65 and 75, fair-skinned with blue eyes and receding grey hair. Aside from these particulars he currently has no name, no family, and no home.

He was wearing a white shirt, blue jumper, corduroy trousers, beige overcoat and black slip-on shoes with a fresh lick of polish.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Thanks for the informative post, MelmothTheLost!
Wondering if the UID man previously went grouse shooting in the area?

I think that's quite unlikely as sport shooting in the UK is a rich man's sport (and had he been wealthy enough to shoot I feel certain he'd have been identified by now) or or one in which local landowners invite people they know to shoot on their land. However he could have had other shooting related links to the area.

For instance his father might have been a gamekeeper in the area so he grew up there but maybe left young enough that no-one local now recognises him. A friend of mine was a gamekeeper on a series of sporting estates in Scotland and he rarely stayed in one place more than a few years (I don't know if that means he was a poor gamekeeper or if it was just the nature of the job).

He might also have been a beater locally in his youth. Beaters are used to startle birds out of the undergrowth so they can be shot. Although beating does provide seasonal employment for local men, not all beaters would necessarily have been local enough to be recognised years later.

 

[trendsetter]

I doubt whether he was at all familiar with the area - when he arrived he needed to ask directions (from the landlord of the local pub - the Clarence Hotel) and even then he asked how to get to the top of the "mountain" - but not naming the place (almost certainly because he did know it). This is the sort of thing that amuses the locals - it would be called a hill, fell or moor by them and suggests to me that he wasn't familiar with that sort of terrain. Because he seemed so unprepared for this part of his journey (not even a map) I wonder if this is a case of a dissociative fugue (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-fugue).

 

[trendsetter]

Ammended post #172:

I doubt whether he was at all familiar with the area - when he arrived he needed to ask directions (from the landlord of the local pub - the Clarence Hotel) and even then he asked how to get to the top of the "mountain" - but not naming the place (almost certainly because he didn't know it). This is the sort of thing that amuses the locals - it would be called a hill, fell or moor by them and suggests to me that he wasn't familiar with that sort of terrain. Because he seemed so unprepared for this part of his journey (not even a map) I wonder if this is a case of a dissociative fugue (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-fugue).

(apologies for needing to post this again but I am unable to edit post #172)

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Ammended post #172:

I doubt whether he was at all familiar with the area - when he arrived he needed to ask directions (from the landlord of the local pub - the Clarence Hotel) and even then he asked how to get to the top of the "mountain" - but not naming the place (almost certainly because he didn't know it). This is the sort of thing that amuses the locals - it would be called a hill, fell or moor by them and suggests to me that he wasn't familiar with that sort of terrain. Because he seemed so unprepared for this part of his journey (not even a map) I wonder if this is a case of a dissociative fugue (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-fugue).

(apologies for needing to post this again but I am unable to edit post #172)

What did you change? I'm trying to see but can't!

 

[dotr]

What did you change? I'm trying to see but can't!

This part was changed, to indicate that Trendsetter believes that uid male, did not know the area, as opposed to the original post which read as..
" (almost certainly because he did know it)"
imo.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This part was changed, to indicate that Trendsetter believes that uid male, did not know the area, as opposed to the original post which read as..
" (almost certainly because he did know it)"
imo.

Thanks! Weirdly though, I read it as "didn't" the first time!!

It's a good point about him asking directions, but I still think there has to be a sentimental connection somehow. There a million other locations he could have gone rather than up there. Either he'd been there before, decades ago, or there's a link to the plane crash, Moors Murders, or something else related to the area.

I just don't know why he's not been ID'd yet. His picture will have been all over local press, both in Lancashire and London. We're not a huge country, someone should have recognised something about the case by now. I wonder whatever happened with the Boxing Club connection?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I doubt whether he was at all familiar with the area - when he arrived he needed to ask directions (from the landlord of the local pub - the Clarence Hotel) and even then he asked how to get to the top of the "mountain" - but not naming the place (almost certainly because he did know it).

I tend to agree with you. The only objection I can see is that the reservoir above which he was found was only created in the late 1960s as the last in a series of reservoirs in that valley. If any previous experience he may have had of the area pre-dated the reservoir, he may not have known which tracks and paths still existed.

 

[dotr]

Any indication the UID man had tattoos, or perhaps once had them?

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2006024499&id=&lang=en

MACKENZIE, Allan Malcolm
Photo of MACKENZIE, Allan Malcolm

Personal details Wearing or features 5 Gallery

Missing since
November 5, 1987
Year of birth
1935
Age at disappearance
52
Gender
Male
Bio group
White
Eye colour
Brown
Hair
Brown, Short, Wavy
Teeth
False
Height
180cm / 5 ft 11 in
Weight
72kg / 159lb
Build
Slender/Thin

 

[ShakerSince92]

Any indication the UID man had tattoos, or perhaps once had them?

https://www.services.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/missing-disparus/case-dossier.jsf?case=2006024499&id=&lang=en

View attachment 93232

That is eerie. Could well be one and the same.

 

[Any123]

Mod: I'm using tapatalk. Is there anyway to remove the center picture? I keep thinking it's a pic of IUD but it is of someone who was ruled out right?