Definitely murder. Because there's no other way to explain strangling someone until they stop breathing. That is a long time, despite not sounding it, to keep that hold going and break those bones in her neck. In fact I've heard other pathologists testify that it takes about 3 minutes but even a minute is long if you set a timer and wait.
GUILTY UK - Det. Leanne McKie, 39, found dead in Cheshire lake, 28 Sept 2017
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Sorry for what you went through, I hope things are better now.
I think a lot will depend on the judge's summing up.
For me, I think it's murder. No doubts.
But I agree it wasn't pre-planned.
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16:13
Jury sent home - summing up to conclude in the morning
After summarising the defendants police interviews, the jury is sent home for the day and the case resumes in the morning.
Summing up is expected to continue for about 15 minutes in the morning before the jury is sent out to consider its verdict.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
Jury sent home - summing up to conclude in the morning
After summarising the defendants police interviews, the jury is sent home for the day and the case resumes in the morning.
Summing up is expected to continue for about 15 minutes in the morning before the jury is sent out to consider its verdict.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
mrazda71
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Thanks, very happilly divorced 11 years ago!
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I agree.
I know it is morbid but I've been reading up on strangulation on wiki and some other sites, there are two different mechanisms that can occur, restricting blood supply or restricting airflow. In this case it appears to be the latter.
If somebody knows exactly how to strangle somebody, mild pressure to the correct part of the neck stops blood flow and can take as little as 7-14 seconds for unconsciousness, although the victim may regain consciousness shortly afterwards if pressure is immediately released (eg fainting game).
In this case the pathologist stated that the victim showed signs of asphyxia (burst blood vessels in eyes). It requires 6 times more pressure to stop breathing than it does to stop blood flow and takes at least a minute for initial unconsciousness (imagine holding breath) but again the victim can regain consciousness if pressure is immediately released.
Given that there were signs of a hand being held forcibly over LM's mouth as well as 2 broken neck bones, it appears this wasn't a quick and clean strangulation and I agree, it probably lasted much longer than a minute from the start to end. Just one partial breath or gasp taken by the victim will prolong the time to unconsciousness. It may even take several attempts if the victim starts autonomous breathing after unconsciousness.
In both cases this is the shortest time until unconsciousness - not death - and assumes it is a well executed strangulation. Brain cells start to die around 4-6 minutes after loss of blood flow or breathing and about 10 minutes until totally brain dead. Effective CPR has been known to prolong this time to 20-40 minutes.
And for that reason I believe this is murder, there was plenty of time to stop and think. There would even be the opportunity to give CPR after breathing stopped.
I believe at some point DM must have realised he needed to finish the job otherwise the consequence of LM reporting the attempted strangulation would have been disastrous for him and from that point the cover up was in progress even before death occurred.
Trial (Part Heard) - Jury retire to consider verdict - 10:20
http://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Chester-Crown-Court.php
http://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Chester-Crown-Court.php
Leanne[FONT="] [/FONT]McKie[FONT="] murder trial live: Court packed with family and friends as the judge sends out the jury to consider their verdict
https://twitter.com/johnscheerhout
[/FONT][h=3]Judge suggests he wants a unanimous verdict[/h][FONT="]The judge suggests to the jurors that the first thing they do when they retire is to nominate a foreman who will be asked to read out the verdict at the end of their deliberations.[/FONT]
[FONT="]He tells them they may have heard of majority verdicts which he says the law permits in ‘certain circumstances’ but he added: “Those circumstances have not arisen in this case, certainly not as yet.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Mr Justice Spencer asks them to reach a verdict on which each and every one of them is agreed ‘one way or the other’.[/FONT]
[FONT="]He continues: “May I emphasise there’s absolutely no pressure of time upon you. You will have as much time as you need to consider the matter and reach your verdict. If by the end of the day you are still deliberating, we simply adjourn in the usual way and carry on tomorrow.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]With those final remarks, the judge asked to jurors to retire to their jury room and consider their verdicts.
https://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368661
[/FONT]
https://twitter.com/johnscheerhout
[/FONT][h=3]Judge suggests he wants a unanimous verdict[/h][FONT="]The judge suggests to the jurors that the first thing they do when they retire is to nominate a foreman who will be asked to read out the verdict at the end of their deliberations.[/FONT]
[FONT="]He tells them they may have heard of majority verdicts which he says the law permits in ‘certain circumstances’ but he added: “Those circumstances have not arisen in this case, certainly not as yet.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Mr Justice Spencer asks them to reach a verdict on which each and every one of them is agreed ‘one way or the other’.[/FONT]
[FONT="]He continues: “May I emphasise there’s absolutely no pressure of time upon you. You will have as much time as you need to consider the matter and reach your verdict. If by the end of the day you are still deliberating, we simply adjourn in the usual way and carry on tomorrow.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]With those final remarks, the judge asked to jurors to retire to their jury room and consider their verdicts.
https://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368661
[/FONT]
Since I posted a short "Murder imo" post yesterday I feel I should say I do appreciate McKie's plea of guilty to Manslaughter and my opinion of murder was not without due consideration of what has been reported in his defence.
Like allmansix I've read up about strangulation or 'garroting' and found that this is a violent and quite lengthy death. The injuries that Leanne received must have been caused by intense bodily harm.
I also considered McKie's mental and physical state as reported by the surveyor and other parents when he collected his children from school, within hours of this attack. His inexplicable behaviour appearing quite normal (?) in control, seemingly sociable and without raising suspicion of the shocking events which had happened so recently.
His (McKie) apparent self control so soon after his wife's death and the thought and consideration in hiding and later disposal of Leanne's body lead me to think this was not premeditated, but nevertheless was deliberate and almost considered.
Like allmansix I've read up about strangulation or 'garroting' and found that this is a violent and quite lengthy death. The injuries that Leanne received must have been caused by intense bodily harm.
I also considered McKie's mental and physical state as reported by the surveyor and other parents when he collected his children from school, within hours of this attack. His inexplicable behaviour appearing quite normal (?) in control, seemingly sociable and without raising suspicion of the shocking events which had happened so recently.
His (McKie) apparent self control so soon after his wife's death and the thought and consideration in hiding and later disposal of Leanne's body lead me to think this was not premeditated, but nevertheless was deliberate and almost considered.
16:20JOHN SCHEERHOUT
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
Jury's deliberations to continue tomorrow morning
The jury is called into court and the judge tells them go home and resume their deliberations in the morning.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
Jury's deliberations to continue tomorrow morning
The jury is called into court and the judge tells them go home and resume their deliberations in the morning.
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Just catching up with this today - I remember when it happened but had forgotten to follow the trial ( I blame that on too much stuff happening here ).
Thanks to Legally, Tortoise and everyone else who has posted up the trial transcripts and informative details.
To me the man is guilty of murder, no question and I hope the Jury return the proper ( imo ) verdict.
His defence argument is not the worst I have ever heard ( remember Flinty ! ) but it has huge holes in it.
Looking forward to a verdict tomorrow.
Thanks to Legally, Tortoise and everyone else who has posted up the trial transcripts and informative details.
To me the man is guilty of murder, no question and I hope the Jury return the proper ( imo ) verdict.
His defence argument is not the worst I have ever heard ( remember Flinty ! ) but it has huge holes in it.
Looking forward to a verdict tomorrow.
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Quote from the Defence QC
There is not a single word in evidence in this case by the defendant
which in itself is damning !
plus all the lines the defence stated about
DM must have thought this, he must have felt that........
well why not put him in the witness box and let him tell everyone directly, instead of second guessing his feelings.
There is not a single word in evidence in this case by the defendant
which in itself is damning !
plus all the lines the defence stated about
DM must have thought this, he must have felt that........
well why not put him in the witness box and let him tell everyone directly, instead of second guessing his feelings.
He obviously doesn't think her family deserves an explanation. I hope the judge throws the book at him. Will the judge penalise him further for being a police inspector, it does seem to jar even more with me that he had the job he did and the denial of guilt and the game he's played with their families.
In the U.S. there is 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter--and this varies among states.
What exactly are the differing crimes in Britain for killing someone and how are they distinguished?
What exactly are the differing crimes in Britain for killing someone and how are they distinguished?
Livness
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So basically:
Murder - unlawful (not self-defence) killing (by somebody of sound mind) of another person with intent to kill or cause grevious bodily harm
(In contrast, attempted murder requires the intent to kill, not 'just' to cause GBH)
Manslaughter - Generally divided into
Voluntary manslaughter- 1. Killing with intent for murder but with a partial defence (loss of control, diminished responsibility, or suicide pact)
Or involuntary manslaughter - 2. Gross negligence manslaughter (breaching of duty of care which causes/significantly contributes to death of victim) or 3. Unlawful acts involving danger of harm, which result in death (e.g. arson).
(And then other more specific offences, e.g. death by dangerous driving).
When it comes to murder, prosecutors can add an alternative count of murder to the indictment, which means that if the jury can't reach a verdict in relation to murder, they may still return a guilty verdict in relation to manslaughter. If no alternative is included, they must decide whether to seek a retrial or to accept the alternative count of manslaughter (or they can be directed to consider the alternative by the judge).
There are 3 partial defences to murder: diminished responsibility, loss of control, and suicide pacts. These are partial defences because they have all the criteria for a murder charge, but can reduce it to 'voluntary manslaughter'. Summed up, they basically mean:
1) Diminished responsibility - Abnormality of mental functioning affecting ability to exercise willpower or to control physical acts using rational judement (a question for jury to decide) (criteria basically 1) abnormality of mental functioning; 2) recognised medical condition; 3) substantial impairment of ability to understand conduct or use rational judgement to control behaviour) (this doesn't have to be the only cause in the behaviour, but has to be at least a significant contributing factor)
2) Loss of control - this can be even if there is a delay between the 'trigger' and the murder (but doesn't include e.g. revenge. Control has to have been lost).
A full defence is e.g. self-defence, which is more likely to result in no prosecution (so long as reasonable force is used).
.
Murder - unlawful (not self-defence) killing (by somebody of sound mind) of another person with intent to kill or cause grevious bodily harm
(In contrast, attempted murder requires the intent to kill, not 'just' to cause GBH)
Manslaughter - Generally divided into
Voluntary manslaughter- 1. Killing with intent for murder but with a partial defence (loss of control, diminished responsibility, or suicide pact)
Or involuntary manslaughter - 2. Gross negligence manslaughter (breaching of duty of care which causes/significantly contributes to death of victim) or 3. Unlawful acts involving danger of harm, which result in death (e.g. arson).
(And then other more specific offences, e.g. death by dangerous driving).
When it comes to murder, prosecutors can add an alternative count of murder to the indictment, which means that if the jury can't reach a verdict in relation to murder, they may still return a guilty verdict in relation to manslaughter. If no alternative is included, they must decide whether to seek a retrial or to accept the alternative count of manslaughter (or they can be directed to consider the alternative by the judge).
There are 3 partial defences to murder: diminished responsibility, loss of control, and suicide pacts. These are partial defences because they have all the criteria for a murder charge, but can reduce it to 'voluntary manslaughter'. Summed up, they basically mean:
1) Diminished responsibility - Abnormality of mental functioning affecting ability to exercise willpower or to control physical acts using rational judement (a question for jury to decide) (criteria basically 1) abnormality of mental functioning; 2) recognised medical condition; 3) substantial impairment of ability to understand conduct or use rational judgement to control behaviour) (this doesn't have to be the only cause in the behaviour, but has to be at least a significant contributing factor)
2) Loss of control - this can be even if there is a delay between the 'trigger' and the murder (but doesn't include e.g. revenge. Control has to have been lost).
A full defence is e.g. self-defence, which is more likely to result in no prosecution (so long as reasonable force is used).
.
Friday 23/03/2018
10:15
Jury begin second day of deliberations
The jury is brought back into court and then told by the judge to begin their second day of deliberations.
The jury bailiff is sworn in and the jurors are led away.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
10:15
Jury begin second day of deliberations
The jury is brought back into court and then told by the judge to begin their second day of deliberations.
The jury bailiff is sworn in and the jurors are led away.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
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10:15
Jury begin second day of deliberations
The jury is brought back into court and then told by the judge to begin their second day of deliberations.
The jury bailiff is sworn in and the jurors are led away.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
ETA: Sorry Jessie, didn't see your post.
Jury begin second day of deliberations
The jury is brought back into court and then told by the judge to begin their second day of deliberations.
The jury bailiff is sworn in and the jurors are led away.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
ETA: Sorry Jessie, didn't see your post.
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11:45
Jury ask for transcript of the evidence from the pathologist
​The jurors are brought back into court following a note they sent to the judge asking for a transcript of the evidence from the pathologist.
The judge, Mr Justice Spencer, tells the jurors they rules don’t permit them to have a transcript of what any witness has said although he said he was able to remind them of evidence.
He asked the jurors to retire again to consider whether they wanted to be reminded of all of the pathologist’s evidence or just one part of it.
The pathologist had ruled Leanne McKie died of asphyxia due external compression of the neck probably due to ‘manual strangulation’.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
Jury ask for transcript of the evidence from the pathologist
​The jurors are brought back into court following a note they sent to the judge asking for a transcript of the evidence from the pathologist.
The judge, Mr Justice Spencer, tells the jurors they rules don’t permit them to have a transcript of what any witness has said although he said he was able to remind them of evidence.
He asked the jurors to retire again to consider whether they wanted to be reminded of all of the pathologist’s evidence or just one part of it.
The pathologist had ruled Leanne McKie died of asphyxia due external compression of the neck probably due to ‘manual strangulation’.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
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12:00
Judge now summarising pathologist's evidence
The jurors are brought back into court after informing the judge that they wish to be reminded of all of the pathologist’s evidence.
Mr Justice Spencer said he would use a mixture of summary and direct quotation from the pathlogist to remind them of this evidence.
“I’m not going to deal with evidence about the time of death. That wasn’t a live issue it seems to me. I have discussed this with counsel and they have agreed with that as well,” said the judge, who then embarks on summarising the evidence of the pathologist.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
Judge now summarising pathologist's evidence
The jurors are brought back into court after informing the judge that they wish to be reminded of all of the pathologist’s evidence.
Mr Justice Spencer said he would use a mixture of summary and direct quotation from the pathlogist to remind them of this evidence.
“I’m not going to deal with evidence about the time of death. That wasn’t a live issue it seems to me. I have discussed this with counsel and they have agreed with that as well,” said the judge, who then embarks on summarising the evidence of the pathologist.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/darren-mckie-murder-wife-trial-14368526
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