GUILTY UK - Elle Edwards, 26, shot and killed on Christmas Eve in Wallasey, 2022 * arrest*

[Penny68]

Sadly we haven't got the death penalty here in the UK, as sure as anything he fits the bill. At least as good as can be sentence for him, hope he suffers in some way every single day of it.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Wow … 48 years, well done Justice Goose.
Maybe they will think twice now.

One would fervently hope so but I doubt these types of people think that deeply, tbh. I mean, anyone who did wouldn't have done something like that to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with sentences like these and I think there should be more of them but I think deterrence is really a non-starter with the types of people who are this mindset. It's obvious that killing people in the street with a sub-machinegun (even though it probably actually wasn't) is going to get you a very long sentence so he clearly didn't care to begin with.

It's a bit like when people harp on about the death penalty acting as a deterrent because it generally doesn't. Years ago I read up on it and for the first fifty-something years of the 20th Century the UK was hanging people at a rate of just shy of 2 per-month, I think. That was when hanging was the only penalty available so a lot of people weren't deterred by it. Moreover, apparently more than half of those convicted were reprieved so there were more than twice the number of murders than there were hangings.

 

[bobbymkii]

And in Nottingham Jamie Barrow got 44 years. Two monster murder sentences passed within minutes of each other in England! And both thoroughly deserved too.
9 years is a big sentence too, I've never seen a sentence that high for assisting an offender.

 

[Becky53]

Is there a link anywhere to the actual sentencing remarks?

Downloadable file at link

In the Crown Court at Liverpool

R
-v-
Connor Chapman
and
Thomas Waring
Sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Goose

R -v- Chapman and Waring - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

In the Crown Court at Liverpool 7 July 2023 Between: R-v-Connor Chapmanand Thomas Waring Sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Goose

www.judiciary.uk

 

[d0lphin]

According to Sky news the 48 year (minimum) sentence is the longest sentence for a criminal conviction here in the UK.
It's good to see a decent sentence being handed out.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Sadly we haven't got the death penalty here in the UK, as sure as anything he fits the bill. At least as good as can be sentence for him, hope he suffers in some way every single day of it.

I'm quite conflicted on the subject of the death penalty. I have no fundamental objection to it, I think it's an entirely reasonable option if that is what a democratic society chooses to impose.

However, on balance, I wouldn't support its reintroduction for various reasons. Keeping things short; it's not a deterrent (other than in very specific cases) and it's always applied in an unjust manner. When we used it more people were reprieved than were hanged - at least in the last century - and there were never any reasons given as to why reprieves were given.

If it were the case that the law required that every single murder were hanged then that would be a far more just system but that would never be accepted as there would be the inevitable public outcries over certain cases. The baby farmers, Sach and Walters, murdered over a dozen babies (although I think only convicted of one) and there was a big campaign to have them reprieved - would that have happened were they men? And I don't think I need to draw a parallel with a currently ongoing case!

Look at the case of Thompson and Bywaters; Edith Thompson was clearly absolutely not guilty yet was hanged based on a conviction which is accepted as having been largely handed down due to the influence of the judge was made some totally irrelevant and biased comments about the fact that she was having an affair with the murderer, Bywaters.

 

[Penny68]

@Marantz4250b
I do totally understand what you have said, and fair enough I agree.

Just in the heat of the moment I feel the DP, if it was on the table, then he certainly would have deserved it as he was proven, without doubt that he did what he was accused of doing.

But in a sense the sentence he has been given, him knowing he will be in there, no freedom, for all that time, is in a way a good thing.

He will suffer in more ways than one through all those given years.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Downloadable file at link

In the Crown Court at Liverpool

R
-v-
Connor Chapman
and
Thomas Waring
Sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Goose

R -v- Chapman and Waring - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

In the Crown Court at Liverpool 7 July 2023 Between: R-v-Connor Chapmanand Thomas Waring Sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Goose

www.judiciary.uk

Wow!

I have to say that I entirely agree that that is an appropriate sentence but given the huge uplift from the starting point I reckon it's inevitable that we'll see an appeal.

 

[Marantz4250b]

According to Sky news the 48 year (minimum) sentence is the longest sentence for a criminal conviction here in the UK.
It's good to see a decent sentence being handed out.

It's not. People have been given Whole Life Orders before - although that might be the longest for something other than a WLO. I certainly can't think of anything longer.

 

[Marantz4250b]

@Marantz4250b
I do totally understand what you have said, and fair enough I agree.

Just in the heat of the moment I feel the DP, if it was on the table, then he certainly would have deserved it as he was proven, without doubt that he did what he was accused of doing.

But in a sense the sentence he has been given, him knowing he will be in there, no freedom, for all that time, is in a way a good thing.

He will suffer in more ways than one through all those given years.

Yes, entirely agreed. And, yes, I think that this guy is the perfect candidate for the noose and I would lose absolutely no sleep over it whatsoever! I cannot see any doubt as to his guilt, tbh, and when you think about it, a "suspended" sentence is entirely appropriate in his case!

 

[Marantz4250b]

I haven't followed this case too closely so I have a question. I read that the gun used and mentioned in evidence was of a "type" which was a Czech "Skorpion" (VZ63) submachinegun. From the tone of the reports it suggested that the police didn't recover the gun but he was apparently seen dropping it on the way to his co-defendant's house.

Did they actually recover the gun and was it actually capable of fully-automatic fire as I believe that evidence was given that he fired it semi-automatically?

 

[Alyce]

Wow!

I have to say that I entirely agree that that is an appropriate sentence but given the huge uplift from the starting point I reckon it's inevitable that we'll see an appeal.

He will appeal for sure, just as Cashman has done. However, his starting point is so high that reducing by a few years will not make a measurable difference.
Not that I think he will be successful anyway.

 

[Teignmouth 22]

Excellent sentence. Well done Mr Justice Goose. We need more sentences like this please.

 

[Alyce]

I haven't followed this case too closely so I have a question. I read that the gun used and mentioned in evidence was of a "type" which was a Czech "Skorpion" (VZ63) submachinegun. From the tone of the reports it suggested that the police didn't recover the gun but he was apparently seen dropping it on the way to his co-defendant's house.

Did they actually recover the gun and was it actually capable of fully-automatic fire as I believe that evidence was given that he fired it semi-automatically?

The gun has not been found.

The Prosecution claimed it was capable of fully auto fire and the expert gun witness ( for want of a better job description ! ) said that in full auto the gun would have emptied in a second or two.
From the vid released post trial …. and from the earlier sound recordings , which were available pre trial , it was clear he used it semi auto.

 

[Marantz4250b]

He will appeal for sure, just as Cashman has done. However, his starting point is so high that reducing by a few years will not make a measurable difference.
Not that I think he will be successful anyway.

His starting point is 30 years. The problem, as i see it, is that the tarrif arrived at is huge being an uplift of more than 50% of the starting point. Yes, there are a huge number of aggravating circumstances but I'm not sure that they will stack up, legally speaking, to support such a large uplift.

Don't get me wrong, morally, I consider this an entirely just and reasonable sentence but I have reservations as to whether it is legally justifiable.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The gun has not been found.

The Prosecution claimed it was capable of fully auto fire and the expert gun witness ( for want of a better job description ! ) said that in full auto the gun would have emptied in a second or two.
From the vid released post trial …. and from the earlier sound recordings , which were available pre trial , it was clear he used it semi auto.

I fail to see how they could claim that unless they were in possession of the gun in question. Yes the VZ61 as a type was designed as a fully-automatic weapon, well select fire I think, but lots will have been converted to semi-auto only or will have been built as such.

I am amazed that they have not recovered the weapon, quite frankly! Is it correct to say that he was seen dropping it?

 

[Penny68]

A big fear is where on earth is the gun!. Someone then must have come across it. In the wrong hands that is a huge worry.

 

[Alyce]

I fail to see how they could claim that unless they were in possession of the gun in question. Yes the VZ61 as a type was designed as a fully-automatic weapon, well select fire I think, but lots will have been converted to semi-auto only or will have been built as such.

I am amazed that they have not recovered the weapon, quite frankly! Is it correct to say that he was seen dropping it?

I agree completely with you re their claim….but then I wasn't the biggest fan of the prosecution. Although I am obviously pleased they got the guilty verdict.

He is seen dropping the gun, I will find the clip and post it for you. He also ,at that point ,has taken off his head covering…big mistake as he’s very easily identifiable without it.

 

[Alyce]

A big fear is where on earth is the gun!. Someone then must have come across it. In the wrong hands that is a huge worry.

I don’t think it will ever be found.

 

[Marantz4250b]

A big fear is where on earth is the gun!. Someone then must have come across it. In the wrong hands that is a huge worry.

As I've said, I haven't followed this case closely but this is absolutely shocking!

Fortunately, the ammunition it uses is not a common thing in the UK as there is virtually nothing legally available to civilians which uses it. That's no great comfort, tbh, as, globally, it's a very common round. Same round used by Mr Bond in his PPK and once a very common European police cartridge, often used in the said PPK.