GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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  • #101
Another thing I was wondering, is what impression did the school have of Ellie and her parents? Did Ellie keep missing school? Did she turn up with bruises? Was any reason given for absences and injuries? What was her personality and apparent mental state like? Did BB behave himself for the school?
Was wondering the same. Thank you for bringing it up.
I'm sure the Social.Services would of kept an eye on Ellie. Given the past. She was obviously on an at risk register at some point. And I'm wondering if the court made an order for the school and all parties involved to remain in touch. As it was not even a year since her being released back to the family.
Lots of things don't add up. And I really hope they get asked about. Becuz someone failed this lil girl... before she met her horrifying death.
The pure amount of marks and bruises alone would of sent my senses into overdrive.
How is it she'd fractured her scapula not 3 weeks before she died. Now I'm aware of schools half term holidays and holiday events like easter bank holidays and the like.
But the only long holidays are the 6 week ones in the summer.
The poor lil girl must of been in absolute agony. Did she moan about the pain. Keep on moaning about the pain. So she got a 'back hander' into a wall. Or cupboard?
In a video where HE is ranting. Shows Ellie almost in a trance. With blackened eye and a bandage on her leg. Whatever that was serving purpose for.
Questions questions questions. All need answering. Let's hope they're asked and answered. Imo of course.

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  • #102
There was an abundance of press cameras outside the Old Bailey yesterday, one courtroom was operating a ticket only system for entrance to the public gallery - I think it was the sentencing of the James Fairweather murder case. (ETA Also the trial directions for the Sian Blake murder trial same court yesterday) I also didn't see any press reporters in the public gallery of the Butler/Gray trial. We were not warned or restricted in any way when entering or leaving the public gallery, so I can only think that notice refers to certain elements of the case at certain times when it would be made clear.

The other thing of note was that this trial resumes at 2pm on Tuesday after the bank holiday, but there will be a meeting between the judge and counsels at 12pm to discuss how the expert evidence from the 2007 incident with Ellie will be presented to the jury.

Journalists have their own separate gallery at the Old Bailey.

Just to note, anything said in court when the jury aren't present is unreportable as standard.
 
  • #103
Journalists have their own separate gallery at the Old Bailey.

Just to note, anything said in court when the jury aren't present is unreportable as standard.

That's interesting, whereabouts is it?
 
  • #104
In or beside the well of the court. It depends on the individual courtroom.
 
  • #105
If you can't see them, then they're probably directly underneath the public gallery, although they can be easy to confuse with the solicitors. From memory I think the solicitors are always visible from the public gallery (barristers are always in the centre of the court), so if you can see the jury that means the journalists are underneath you.
 
  • #106
I've no doubt that you have more knowledge about these things than I Supernovae. Your posts raised my interest in finding out more about court reporting restrictions. I may decide to go along for another viewing before the end of the trial and I would definitely like to know what I can and can't put on the forum.

Particularly the point about 'when the jury is sent out', because to me that sounds as if it's not for the jury's ears, for obvious reasons, but the public not being a member of the jury is not bound by the same rules as the jury is sworn to. I might be showing huge ignorance by saying that, and I welcome your input and being set straight on it. I couldn't find anything about it in the governments publication on reporting restrictions, but maybe I missed it. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Reporting-Restrictions-Guide-2014-FINAL.pdf

I would have thought the judge would clear the public gallery if material was not for public consumption, because the public is viewing proceedings under it's right to do so. I also would have thought if there were restrictions, they would be pasted on the door to the public gallery, and the court ushers would necessarily be required to instruct the public over matters of such importance and where additional restrictions may have been ordered and put in place by the judge.

Take for instance the two expert witnesses who I heard giving evidence last week. I can't think how that information being reported differs from reports given the day before about the 3D skulls, and how it could prejudice the proceedings or the parties, particularly since they are adults whose identities are known, and no other protected party such as younger sister was mentioned.

If you have the time I would appreciate your advice on this.

edited to add - the 2007 incident has been reported in the press and to the jury during this trial, which deepens the mystery from my point of view, regarding the rule of non-reporting of the arrangements in court I mentioned.
 
  • #107
If you can't see them, then they're probably directly underneath the public gallery, although they can be easy to confuse with the solicitors. From memory I think the solicitors are always visible from the public gallery (barristers are always in the centre of the court), so if you can see the jury that means the journalists are underneath you.

Ah, could have been tucked away underneath then. Thanks.
 
  • #108
  • #109
Yes this is terribly sad

11 months of physical pain & mental abuse for this child. Trauma for the sister.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-father-accused-assaulting-jury-hears.html
A healed skull fracture could have dated back to the first allegation of assault by Butler in 2007, he said.
Three to five weeks before her death, Ellie suffered a broken shoulder bone.
Consultant orthopaedic surgeon Michael Uglow told the court that Ellie would have been in 'acute pain' for 10 days after her shoulder was broken.
He said: 'A child of six, they cannot hide their pain. They will cry. They will verbalise they are in pain and they will not move because of it.'

Then she sustained 'bruising' to the skull, two to three weeks before the fatal injury, the court heard

Tortoise - yes, if she is working as a Graphic Designer I doubt she would have learning difficulties, unless eg. it was all digital work where you can find some very high-functioning autistic-spectrum staff working really well in that specialism. In all the photos I have seen of her, the 2012 ones, she has distinctive expressions, esp. given the circumstances, I thought she appeared "odd", in comparison to him, he just looked narcissistic somehow but more effective at playing the victim plight.( I can read anything into a photo LOL)

Gigi - like you, considering the brazenness of this pair, no sentence will be long enough and in any case how on earth is he going to be able to put on a show of remorse for sentence mitigation?

I am wondering if the 2007 State medical witnesses picked up on this possible 2007 skull fracture - as per the specialist opinion today?
 
  • #110
I've no doubt that you have more knowledge about these things than I Supernovae. Your posts raised my interest in finding out more about court reporting restrictions. I may decide to go along for another viewing before the end of the trial and I would definitely like to know what I can and can't put on the forum.

Particularly the point about 'when the jury is sent out', because to me that sounds as if it's not for the jury's ears, for obvious reasons, but the public not being a member of the jury is not bound by the same rules as the jury is sworn to. I might be showing huge ignorance by saying that, and I welcome your input and being set straight on it. I couldn't find anything about it in the governments publication on reporting restrictions, but maybe I missed it. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Reporting-Restrictions-Guide-2014-FINAL.pdf

I would have thought the judge would clear the public gallery if material was not for public consumption, because the public is viewing proceedings under it's right to do so. I also would have thought if there were restrictions, they would be pasted on the door to the public gallery, and the court ushers would necessarily be required to instruct the public over matters of such importance and where additional restrictions may have been ordered and put in place by the judge.

Take for instance the two expert witnesses who I heard giving evidence last week. I can't think how that information being reported differs from reports given the day before about the 3D skulls, and how it could prejudice the proceedings or the parties, particularly since they are adults whose identities are known, and no other protected party such as younger sister was mentioned.

If you have the time I would appreciate your advice on this.

edited to add - the 2007 incident has been reported in the press and to the jury during this trial, which deepens the mystery from my point of view, regarding the rule of non-reporting of the arrangements in court I mentioned.

Section 4.5 on the Contempt of Court act 4(2) and section 3.1 on the strict liability rule, in your link are relevant. It would be almost unheard of for them to clear the public gallery. I don't know why they would have made this order, thoughts that come to mind are that there may be potential further trials from matters arising, or it could just be that the judge is delaying media reports until the end of each session so that requests for reporting restrictions can be made if necessary. I'd be tempted to tread on the safe side. Judges do concern themselves with internet commentary, see this judgement on the Angela Wrightson case as an example (although Websleuths is probably enough of a backwater that it wouldn't be expected to cause problems):

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2016/12.html

AIUI legal argument without the jury present is strictly unreportable. Nevertheless peoples' observations are interesting and they could share them with others on the thread by PM.
 
  • #111
I've no doubt that you have more knowledge about these things than I Supernovae. Your posts raised my interest in finding out more about court reporting restrictions. I may decide to go along for another viewing before the end of the trial and I would definitely like to know what I can and can't put on the forum.

Particularly the point about 'when the jury is sent out', because to me that sounds as if it's not for the jury's ears, for obvious reasons, but the public not being a member of the jury is not bound by the same rules as the jury is sworn to. I might be showing huge ignorance by saying that, and I welcome your input and being set straight on it. I couldn't find anything about it in the governments publication on reporting restrictions, but maybe I missed it. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Reporting-Restrictions-Guide-2014-FINAL.pdf

I would have thought the judge would clear the public gallery if material was not for public consumption, because the public is viewing proceedings under it's right to do so. I also would have thought if there were restrictions, they would be pasted on the door to the public gallery, and the court ushers would necessarily be required to instruct the public over matters of such importance and where additional restrictions may have been ordered and put in place by the judge.

Take for instance the two expert witnesses who I heard giving evidence last week. I can't think how that information being reported differs from reports given the day before about the 3D skulls, and how it could prejudice the proceedings or the parties, particularly since they are adults whose identities are known, and no other protected party such as younger sister was mentioned.

If you have the time I would appreciate your advice on this.

edited to add - the 2007 incident has been reported in the press and to the jury during this trial, which deepens the mystery from my point of view, regarding the rule of non-reporting of the arrangements in court I mentioned.
Yesssss I was hoping they might find something from Ellie's first encounter with head injury. As a Ventouse delivery is as described yesterday. It's far more likely for a baby that is born with forceps use to have head trauma.

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  • #112
Yes this is terribly sad

11 months of physical pain & mental abuse for this child. Trauma for the sister.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-father-accused-assaulting-jury-hears.html


Tortoise - yes, if she is working as a Graphic Designer I doubt she would have learning difficulties, unless eg. it was all digital work where you can find some very high-functioning autistic-spectrum staff working really well in that specialism. In all the photos I have seen of her, the 2012 ones, she has distinctive expressions, esp. given the circumstances, I thought she appeared "odd", in comparison to him, he just looked narcissistic somehow but more effective at playing the victim plight.( I can read anything into a photo LOL)

Gigi - like you, considering the brazenness of this pair, no sentence will be long enough and in any case how on earth is he going to be able to put on a show of remorse for sentence mitigation?

I am wondering if the 2007 State medical witnesses picked up on this possible 2007 skull fracture - as per the specialist opinion today?
I'm hoping that the prosecution will ask for those papers regarding Ellie's injuries in 2007 be released. The x-ray and CT scans if done at the time. They should of done an indepth investigation of her brain as they stated she had suffered a brain injury. Because I do not 1 iota believe HE is innocent. He flipped out in a rage and only stopped when she stopped moving/talking/crying. He's a bully of one of the worst kind... a bulky of the weaker smaller timid. He instills his POWER over them. They WILL do as he says. Or fear his wrath. Guys like this I'm sorry. But they don't deserve being locked up with this 3 good meals. A chance to study skills. People like these. Need a lethal injection. So no one else has to suffer at their hands. EVIL

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  • #113
I went to the trial today- some of the evidence was heartbreaking.

Before I post more, is there anything I'm not allowed to mention? Can I talk about my impressions of the defendants and some of the questioning of witnesses by the defence? The jury was there the whole time
 
  • #114
I went to the trial today- some of the evidence was heartbreaking.

Before I post more, is there anything I'm not allowed to mention? Can I talk about my impressions of the defendants and some of the questioning of witnesses by the defence? The jury was there the whole time
Oh how fascinating. I so wish I could sit in. But am pretty much housebound on oxygen at the moment. Unless it was requested from the Court that certain information was not for reporting out of court. You should be okay

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  • #115
Ok.. long post coming up...

Okay, I'll record my thoughts about the defendants, as some might be interested to hear.

Knowing that Gray has admitted staging the scene for the call to emergency services, I think I had been expecting that she had had a change of heart about what had happened to Ellie before she arrived home, or had possibly accepted that Ellie's injuries were non-accidental. This is not the case.

I think I was also expecting to see some signs of distress and/or a mother's pain, and a somewhat helpless or downtrodden person, and/or a fractured partnership/relationship, on the basis of her letters and the abuse/power wielded by Butler in the relationship, which we've heard about in evidence. I saw nothing like that.

They are an extremely defiant couple and I've seen them operating in court as a very close team. Neither party comes across as weaker/stronger, it was very apparent that their priority is only themselves. They are working in unison, constantly bending forwards to talk to each other across the security officer who sits between them. Also writing notes constantly to send up to their respective counsels. The defiance on their faces is incredible, and the muttering or speaking out can be heard when they disagree with what is being said in court, which was everything that was said in court. Made even worse, in my view, by shaking their heads in a very exaggerated display of opposition, at every utterance from the expert witnesses. Even things like Ellie's earlier broken shoulder blade, they are refuting by fiercely shaking their heads from side to side for minutes on end. I expected the judge to tell them to stop because I found it to be so disruptive. And Butler sat vainly tweaking his spiky hair in the reflection of the glass of the dock, occasionally leaning to the side with his hand over his eyes, in a pose, and then glancing up to see if the jury was looking at him, while Ellie's horrific injuries were being explained to the jury.

It was most disconcerting to see this 'operation' almost like a business being run in the dock, with paperwork and notes strewn all about them, and not see any shame or humility, or signs of being affected by their daughter's suffering and injuries.

My personal opinion about the peppa pig jump/fall off the chair is that it is beyond ludicrous.

Given that she herself suffered DV at his hands, I really can't see how she can dismiss the possibility he murdered Ellie. I think she only cares about being acquitted of cruelty regarding Ellie's broken shoulder. Why she is standing by him and even with him, I have no clue. I hope their other daughter is safe now, from both of them, forever.

I've considered the possibility she has a learning disability but she was working in a professional environment previously and appears in court to be understanding everything, and looks to be of normal intelligence and to have self-esteem. I know that's a bit of a strange thing to say given that she was a victim of abuse, but to maintain this level of defiance and image of blamelessness does require an amount of self-esteem I believe. I don't think it's possible to say more until she gives evidence.

I'll be interested to see if flutterby gets a similar impression. Butler just gave me the creeps, arrogant is how I would describe his facial expression.

This is the exactly the impression I got. That they felt they were the victims in all of this. Shaking their heads, talking, passing notes between themselves and their legal teams. He kept looking up at the public gallery and the jury, I think to see how people were responding. He almost made eye contact with me at one point, he freaked me out too. A telling point was when she tried to say something to her and he waved his hand and just dismissed her.

What really got me was they both had paper work everywhere, taking lots of notes. There was absolutely no emotion, no crying, just blank faces whilst these awful injuries were being talked about.

Regarding his posing while Ellie's injuries were described, and seeing if the jury were looking at him - what expression/feeling was he trying to convey to the jury with this posing?

I honestly think he just wanted to be the centre of attention. At one point there was some pretty intense evidence and he pretty much flew out of his chair and then mumbled something about "a bee." I don't know how the Judge didn't say anything. It was clearly an attention play.

Am wondering what the jury are making of the pair's behaviour and if the poor grandparents are there.

Edit - note for Gigi - Ellie was fostered with the grand-parents so assume the four adults are not on the best of terms.

I don't think they were. Purely because, they called families in first and nobody went in at that point.

some other things:

I arrived there just after 12, but the clerk told me that the court was empty and to wait. Eventually they said that the case would resume at 2pm and the jury were present at that point. They adjourned until 10am tomorrow, so not sure what happened to discussion about the earlier case.

The first witness said there was evidence of 2 skull fractures and 1 skull trauma, alongside the broken scapula. 1 skull fracture was over a year old and may date back to birth or just after. The skull trauma was 3-5 weeks old, as was the scapula but the healing process showed that they had occurred in separate incidents.
The defence tried to argue that they could have happened at the same time, but the witness said that that was absolutely not the case. He had produced a report for the defence in 2014 and another more recent one for the Crown, and there was some discrepancy about the time periods. This was discussed for a while because the first suggested similar time frames for the skull trauma and scapula, but the second one had different time frames. The defence stated that the witness was writing what the Crown wanted to hear in the second report, but he said this was not the case. He had reviewed the evidence, and the time frames had changed (I think from 3-5 weeks to 3-4 weeks), and what absolutely mattered was the healing process was in different stages.

Now for the awful bit... the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death. I didn't really understand the science, but I think he knew this because the immediate healing process has begun and this doesn't happen post-mortem.

He had checked for metabolic bone diseases and there was nothing to suggest that Ellie would have had brittle bones.

The second witness just talked about the scapula and said that Ellie would have been in a lot of pain. Apparently 75% of patients with a broken scapula present with other, usually life threatening illnesses and it's extremely rare for a broken scapula to be seen in isolation. It would initially need to be treated by morphine and over the counter meds would be nowhere near strong enough. The pain would be terrible for 7-10 days and then subside a little. He said that the injuries would have to be caused by a high energy activity, such as a RTC or a fall of at least 5 feet. He was questioned about whether this could be caused by a fall down the stairs. This would be possible but have to involve direct impact with the bone, and it's unlikely because falling down the stairs involves de-accelerating energy.

BB's defence suggested that a child with a high pain threshold may not cry or protest too much about the injury and would be ok with just paracetamol. The witness said this was absolutely not the case.

JG's questioned whether there would be any outward symptoms that would be displayed to somebody who hadn't witnessed the incident. The witness said that in the first few days the child would absolutely be crying in pain. I can't remember the exact wording for the next bit, but they said if the incident had happened in front of parent 1, and the child felt unable to verbalise their pain would parent 2 know what had happened? I can't remember what the witness said, but I think he said no, but that was extremely unlikely.

Both legal teams mentioned that there isn't much evidence on scapula breaks in isolation, but the surgeon talked about his 15 years as a consultant and said that cases always present in the same way.

Finally, BB went back into custody but it looks like JG is on bail. She left the court room. She and BB didn't really seem to interact or talk with each other at the end of the day though.

I really hope I've remembered everything, and remembered everything correctly.
 
  • #116
Ok.. long post coming up...





This is the exactly the impression I got. That they felt they were the victims in all of this. Shaking their heads, talking, passing notes between themselves and their legal teams. He kept looking up at the public gallery and the jury, I think to see how people were responding. He almost made eye contact with me at one point, he freaked me out too. A telling point was when she tried to say something to her and he waved his hand and just dismissed her.

What really got me was they both had paper work everywhere, taking lots of notes. There was absolutely no emotion, no crying, just blank faces whilst these awful injuries were being talked about.



I honestly think he just wanted to be the centre of attention. At one point there was some pretty intense evidence and he pretty much flew out of his chair and then mumbled something about "a bee." I don't know how the Judge didn't say anything. It was clearly an attention play.



I don't think they were. Purely because, they called families in first and nobody went in at that point.

some other things:

I arrived there just after 12, but the clerk told me that the court was empty and to wait. Eventually they said that the case would resume at 2pm and the jury were present at that point. They adjourned until 10am tomorrow, so not sure what happened to discussion about the earlier case.

The first witness said there was evidence of 2 skull fractures and 1 skull trauma, alongside the broken scapula. 1 skull fracture was over a year old and may date back to birth or just after. The skull trauma was 3-5 weeks old, as was the scapula but the healing process showed that they had occurred in separate incidents.
The defence tried to argue that they could have happened at the same time, but the witness said that that was absolutely not the case. He had produced a report for the defence in 2014 and another more recent one for the Crown, and there was some discrepancy about the time periods. This was discussed for a while because the first suggested similar time frames for the skull trauma and scapula, but the second one had different time frames. The defence stated that the witness was writing what the Crown wanted to hear in the second report, but he said this was not the case. He had reviewed the evidence, and the time frames had changed (I think from 3-5 weeks to 3-4 weeks), and what absolutely mattered was the healing process was in different stages.

Now for the awful bit... the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death. I didn't really understand the science, but I think he knew this because the immediate healing process has begun and this doesn't happen post-mortem.

He had checked for metabolic bone diseases and there was nothing to suggest that Ellie would have had brittle bones.

The second witness just talked about the scapula and said that Ellie would have been in a lot of pain. Apparently 75% of patients with a broken scapula present with other, usually life threatening illnesses and it's extremely rare for a broken scapula to be seen in isolation. It would initially need to be treated by morphine and over the counter meds would be nowhere near strong enough. The pain would be terrible for 7-10 days and then subside a little. He said that the injuries would have to be caused by a high energy activity, such as a RTC or a fall of at least 5 feet. He was questioned about whether this could be caused by a fall down the stairs. This would be possible but have to involve direct impact with the bone, and it's unlikely because falling down the stairs involves de-accelerating energy.

BB's defence suggested that a child with a high pain threshold may not cry or protest too much about the injury and would be ok with just paracetamol. The witness said this was absolutely not the case.

JG's questioned whether there would be any outward symptoms that would be displayed to somebody who hadn't witnessed the incident. The witness said that in the first few days the child would absolutely be crying in pain. I can't remember the exact wording for the next bit, but they said if the incident had happened in front of parent 1, and the child felt unable to verbalise their pain would parent 2 know what had happened? I can't remember what the witness said, but I think he said no, but that was extremely unlikely.

Both legal teams mentioned that there isn't much evidence on scapula breaks in isolation, but the surgeon talked about his 15 years as a consultant and said that cases always present in the same way.

Finally, BB went back into custody but it looks like JG is on bail. She left the court room. She and BB didn't really seem to interact or talk with each other at the end of the day though.

I really hope I've remembered everything, and remembered everything correctly.
Thank-you. That was most informative. I think this is where. Both prosecution and defence lawyers are really going to battle it over... let's hope there's more evidence in written form or graphs or prints of scans etc to present to the Jury.
I still think tho. Unless they have had a good anthropologist give a good listing of misdemeanours of poor Ellie's injuries. Such a beautiful lil girl too. I don't know if many of you followed the Becky Watts case... well Ellie kind of reminds me of a younger Becky. ♡

Going back to the findings. I do hope that the Judge sitting on this case allows for the 2009 evidence to be re- reviewed. And not make it irrelevant to this case. I think it's imperative to this case. Becuz when that case was exonerated and decision overturned. That made BB even worse in his treatment to Jennie and Ellie. It made him even more Narcissistic. Almost like he felt he was untouchable. Cuz HE FOOLED everyone. Soo he thinks he can do it a second time...
Argh this monster leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. And angry.

Thank you so much for your reporting..


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  • #117
Is there anyone going to be sitting in on today's preceding?

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  • #118
Is there anyone going to be sitting in on today's preceding?

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I'm not, but I hope to go again sometime soon, perhaps Friday or early next week.
 
  • #119
You don't get a better court venue than the Old Bailey. I wonder what today's events will bring


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  • #120
Thanks for your insights flutterby.

I've been thinking a bit more about JG's behaviour, and I think she's decided that she has to portray solidarity with BB. The only way she can deny her own role in allowing it to happen is to deny it happened.

How any mother could do that though is beyond my comprehension. In my opinion, it's goes further than that she allowed it to happen, it's not admitting her failings towards her daughter, it's wanting to deny justice for her daughter, even in her death. Despicable.
 
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