GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

They've been sent home for the weekend.

Let's hope they're just dotting the i's

 

[Tortoise]

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK [video=twitter;743826549925875712]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/743826549925875712[/video]
Jury in Ben Butler trial sent home after first day's deliberations. They will continue on Monday

 

[theirmommy]

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK [video=twitter;743826549925875712]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/743826549925875712[/video]
Jury in Ben Butler trial sent home after first day's deliberations. They will continue on Monday

How agonizing. But then I think of her grandparents and family and friends waiting for the wheels of justice

 

[Gigi-G]

What do you mean GIG by back at 3pm. You mean they had a verdict before lunch or he will check back on them at 3 to see if they have one?

Anyway - I hope they are sweating.
JG is probably in the pub having a triple vodka! Neat. Last taste of freedom. I hope.

Just what shows on law pages. Sob they were obviously on a break of sorts (late lunch/ afternoon tea) for 15.00.

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[Gigi-G]

What do you mean GIG by back at 3pm. You mean they had a verdict before lunch or he will check back on them at 3 to see if they have one?

Anyway - I hope they are sweating.
JG is probably in the pub having a triple vodka! Neat. Last taste of freedom. I hope.

Sorry had a bad nosebleed from the 'oxygen' so nurse says. But it's left me all kinda weary. N out of it. Sorry for late response :/

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[michelle230]

Thank you Squish - and thanks also to those of you who came up with your great suggestions on the antics of our "friends" if (or rather...when..) guilty verdict is announced!! Lol - think a mixture of all suggestions possible! Can see some physical reactions and as someone (Tortoise?) said - I hope there is extra security on hand.

 

[michelle230]

I went to court today. Am confused! Got there at 11.30ish and was told that the jury had only just been sent out as judge was finishing his summing up.
Went into another trial until lunch. After lunch I went back to be told that the jury were still out and it was likely that nothing more would happen that day so again I went to another trial. When I left at 2.50 I passed by court 8 to be told that there were discussions going on. I went in (there were about another four people in the gallery). However I can`t write about what was going on as we, in the gallery, were warned about reporting restrictions (with threats about how serious it was if we divulged anything!)
However I`m confused about the murder/manslaughter. Apparently it was being discussed in legal discussions one day when I wasn`t there. I asked two different court staff about what the jury had been sent out to consider. One said it was murder and/or neglect. The other one said murder or manslaughter or neglect. So - two different answers. Then I saw the post on here that in fact manslaughter had been given as an option. This makes sense. In my opinion, it * was * manslaughter. I don`t think that BB set out to kill Ellie - I don`t think he was capable of thinking through his red mist!
Will be there on Monday!
Michelle x

 

[Supernovae]

I'm following Danny Shaw on twitter for updates. Is there someone else anyone recommends? I wish there was more coverage on msm.. Anything... Even just people opinions as they wait in the courthouse

If you put Ellie Butler or "Ben Butler" in the search box that will show you the accounts that are covering it. I don't think any of them are going into that much detail except to say that the jury is out.

 

[Gigi-G]

Research this...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_in_English_law

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[Tortoise]

Thanks for the update Michelle.

Just for anyone who might not know - Murder will be if he intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm. Manslaughter will be causing death without that intent (to kill or cause GBH). Also found this -

[FONT=&quot]In cases where the defendant faces a charge of murder, the prosecution should decide in advance of a trial whether or not an alternative count of manslaughter should be added to the indictment. Prosecutors should take the following approach:[/FONT]

• If the alternative is added, and the jury cannot reach a verdict in relation to the first count (murder), but return a verdict of guilty in relation to the alternative count (manslaughter), then the prosecution should not seek a retrial on the first count (murder).
• If no alternative is included on the indictment, the prosecution must decide when the jury retire to consider their verdict on murder whether to seek a re-trial if the jury cannot agree, or whether it would be prepared to accept the alternative (manslaughter). Note that the prosecution may be directed to consider the alternative in any event (R v Coutts [2006] UKHL 39). The reason the prosecution should give prior consideration to this question is because even though manslaughter is not on the indictment, the jury may indicate that it has reached a verdict of guilty on the offence of manslaughter. The prosecution must then decide whether it will ask the judge to accept the verdict of manslaughter from the jury or discharge them from returning such a verdict.
• If the prosecution submits that the judge should accept the verdict of manslaughter, then it will be accepting that it will not be proceeding to a retrial on the charge of murder.
• If the prosecution submits that the judge should not accept the verdict of manslaughter, and therefore seeks a retrial on the charge of murder, then the judge may agree to accede to this, discharge the jury and order a retrial on the charge of murder.
• If, despite representations to the contrary, the judge accepts the verdict of manslaughter because it meets the justice of the case, then the prosecution will not be able to seek a retrial on the charge of murder even if there is no abuse of process (R v JB[2013] EWCA Crim 356).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#murder

 

[Gigi-G]

.

I went to court today. Am confused! Got there at 11.30ish and was told that the jury had only just been sent out as judge was finishing his summing up.
Went into another trial until lunch. After lunch I went back to be told that the jury were still out and it was likely that nothing more would happen that day so again I went to another trial. When I left at 2.50 I passed by court 8 to be told that there were discussions going on. I went in (there were about another four people in the gallery). However I can`t write about what was going on as we, in the gallery, were warned about reporting restrictions (with threats about how serious it was if we divulged anything!)
However I`m confused about the murder/manslaughter. Apparently it was being discussed in legal discussions one day when I wasn`t there. I asked two different court staff about what the jury had been sent out to consider. One said it was murder and/or neglect. The other one said murder or manslaughter or neglect. So - two different answers. Then I saw the post on here that in fact manslaughter had been given as an option. This makes sense. In my opinion, it * was * manslaughter. I don`t think that BB set out to kill Ellie - I don`t think he was capable of thinking through his red mist!
Will be there on Monday!
Michelle x

I'm on the assumption then. That if given manslaughter it will be a lesser charge? Meaning to less convicted sentence time.

I went to court today. Am confused! Got there at 11.30ish and was told that the jury had only just been sent out as judge was finishing his summing up.
Went into another trial until lunch. After lunch I went back to be told that the jury were still out and it was likely that nothing more would happen that day so again I went to another trial. When I left at 2.50 I passed by court 8 to be told that there were discussions going on. I went in (there were about another four people in the gallery). However I can`t write about what was going on as we, in the gallery, were warned about reporting restrictions (with threats about how serious it was if we divulged anything!)
However I`m confused about the murder/manslaughter. Apparently it was being discussed in legal discussions one day when I wasn`t there. I asked two different court staff about what the jury had been sent out to consider. One said it was murder and/or neglect. The other one said murder or manslaughter or neglect. So - two different answers. Then I saw the post on here that in fact manslaughter had been given as an option. This makes sense. In my opinion, it * was * manslaughter. I don`t think that BB set out to kill Ellie - I don`t think he was capable of thinking through his red mist!
Will be there on Monday!
Michelle x

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[squish]

I went to court today. Am confused! Got there at 11.30ish and was told that the jury had only just been sent out as judge was finishing his summing up.
Went into another trial until lunch. After lunch I went back to be told that the jury were still out and it was likely that nothing more would happen that day so again I went to another trial. When I left at 2.50 I passed by court 8 to be told that there were discussions going on. I went in (there were about another four people in the gallery). However I can`t write about what was going on as we, in the gallery, were warned about reporting restrictions (with threats about how serious it was if we divulged anything!)
However I`m confused about the murder/manslaughter. Apparently it was being discussed in legal discussions one day when I wasn`t there. I asked two different court staff about what the jury had been sent out to consider. One said it was murder and/or neglect. The other one said murder or manslaughter or neglect. So - two different answers. Then I saw the post on here that in fact manslaughter had been given as an option. This makes sense. In my opinion, it * was * manslaughter. I don`t think that BB set out to kill Ellie - I don`t think he was capable of thinking through his red mist!
Will be there on Monday!
Michelle x

I agree that he didn't intend to kill her, but attacking her with so much force pretty much makes it murder. It's like if you shoot someone in the face in a blind rage, you may not have planned to kill them but the actions are so severe that it is murder. I think manslaughter is when you commit a crime against someone that is not normally fatal, but has ended up killing someone.

I've said before that I think that BB had attacked Ellie so much that he became blind to the deadliness of his actions. So I think that what he did was murder, just not premeditated.

I also think what he did is worse than murder; Ellie experienced repeated abuse over several months, so her suffering was drawn out.

Either way, I hope that he is convicted of murder, as he will get a better sentence [emoji106]🏽

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm having serious issues posting to WS at the moment...

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[Tortoise]

Oops, sorry cross posted with you CP

 

[Gigi-G]

I think doing what jog says is the best way to go about it.

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[Gigi-G]

Thank-you CP x

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[Gigi-G]

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[tlcya]

:sweep:

:wave:

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you tlcya!

 

[Gigi-G]

Thank you Tlcya

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