GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Renee110]

Butler’s effort to regain custody of Ellie had included an extraordinary press campaign by the former PR guru Max Clifford and was successful in spite of warnings from the child’s grandfather and the local council.


Neal Gray, 70, who had cared for Ellie since she was 10 weeks old, spent all of his £70,000 savings fighting Butler in the courts.


It can be reported for the first time that he warned Mrs Justice Hogg, the high court judge who ruled on returning Ellie to her father in 2012, that she would have “blood on her hands” if she did so.


“My words have come true,” Gray said in an exclusive interview with the Guardian during the trial.


Following a high court application by the media for the release of family court judgments related to the case, it emerged that the high court judge Mrs Justice King concluded in 2014 that “Ellie died as a result of the father either hitting her on the back of the head with the leg of a child’s table, or swinging her with such violence that her head came so forcefully into contact with the table leg … and she sustained the skull fracture”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ilty-of-murdering-six-year-old-daughter-ellie

What a difficult article to read.

 

[Gigi-G]

The "10 meetings"/no-shows , she always had an excuse, work, training, she lost a job due to one contact date etc. She didn't see YD as it was traumatic, so she was protecting herself by staying away.
His excuses - he didn't want to get too close to Ellie in case he lost the custody case. ( that was main one that I remember)


ie answer for everything.

Its there slap bang in yr face they BOTH led the Judicial system a merry dance. Becuz he clambered on to Max Cliffords band wagon (and now where is he... oh yes in prison) the Telegraph actually states that they proposed their case to him. Employed his services. To gain credibility and media recognition.



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[cottonweaver]

This is what I was going on about, that she found BB had hit Ellie with or swung her against a table leg causing the table leg to break. I can't work it out because a broken table leg wasn't mentioned at trial, to my knowledge.

Yes , when I read your table leg posts it didn't sink in at all that there had been a secret trial we had missed, so I did wonder what you were going on about but just thought, ok, I'll come back and read that properly when I've finished this whopper report.

I'm surprised no crime scene photos have come out yet - usually the media get hold of pictures as soon as verdicts are in.

no idea why they are holding them back when they have released this one. Seems contradictory.

JG told her neighbour that Ellie had fallen off her bed, Peart told the court that she may have jumped off the bed but then the defence experts were only asked to consider whether she could have jumped from her small stool.

Yes i recall those former scenarios but IDK why Pros settled on that stool when King says there is a broken table, maybe of same design. We had no forensics ref to that at all. JG also told Monica Cook that E fell off bed and into the radiator.

If we had pictures we could work out whether the bed was near the open wardrobe doors, because I spotted some bedroom pics in that YT video that has now been shut down, and it seemed as if there was open space near the wardrobe. I'm not doubting the verdict in the slightest - it would just be interesting to see what photographic evidence the jury had to work with.

I thought the wardrobe doors being open was their last minute staging, just like the toppled stool but IDK if they do have something to do with the actual true assault. Not following you.

Point of interest for me is that the stool had specially designed legs so that it wouldn't tip over, so it makes the parents' staging even more obvious to me.

Yes that's what BB& JG settled on as their possible "guess" isn't it. ( BTW I don't recall her being asked why she said bed radiator to Cook, but we had massive reporting restrictions. She prob would have just denied it, my word against hers, as was their tack.)

Anyway, the 4 legs are splayed to make it very stable but Dr van E even posed a scenario where she fell head first off that stool too rather than a crumpled fall , ie. it only toppled later or caught her leg as she went down?

No idea why we have never heard of this broken table leg before Monday!! Weird and confusing. All that time considering blunt weapons that could be wiped clean with Oxy 10!!!


2014 secret judgement:

Mrs Justice King concluded that, on the balance of probabilities, Butler had been "responsible for Ellie's death".
The judge said Ellie had suffered a skull fracture.

She explained in a ruling: "I am satisfied so that I am sure that Ellie died as a result of (her) father either hitting her on the back of the head with the leg of (a) child's table, or swinging her with such violence that her head came so forcefully into contact with the table leg that the leg broke and she sustained the skull fracture from which she died."

 

[cottonweaver]

Its there slap bang in yr face they BOTH led the Judicial system a merry dance. Becuz he clambered on to Max Cliffords band wagon (and now where is he... oh yes in prison) the Telegraph actually states that they proposed their case to him. Employed his services. To gain credibility and media recognition.

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Max was in the back of the wagon, Justice Hogg was driving and had the road map . Some dodgy US med experts waved them off.

 

[michelle230]

( He's blubbing and rocking on his mattress. She's already had several spats.)
How do you know that or are you just predicting...if you are I bet they are pretty close to reality. I can imagine him crying like a little boy...... remember "That`s not who I am I`m actually thoughtful and reflective cause that nice Hogg lady said I was " , and ironically, in some ways JG who may not have sworn or been physically violen,t is actually more aggressive , threatening and combative than he is. He, when needs dictate can probably put on an almost charming act (albeit short lived). On the other hand, I can`t imagine JG being able to form meaningful relationships with anyone.
I hope they go around arrogantly boasting to their new" social circle" that they`re f....ing innocent and f...ing going to appeal and win (and get lots of compensation!) and be outta there very very soon. Because that will not go down well in there lol. They`ll behave like they`re "different" to the other inmates and superior and that certainly won`t endear them to their new peers. Can you imagine them keeping their heads down as newbies, showing some humility?
Re Hogg - it is very puzzling indeed why she not only returned the children, but undertook all the other extras too e.g. making the council write to all the professionals to note their total innocence on file and putting a legal system in place should they ever be questioned in the future, so one letter from their solicitor and everyone was forced legally to back off. I have never heard of this before - this utter extremity. I know it sounds ridiculous but....I do wonder about some...shall I say....flattery/weird attachment KWIM?? There was a case recently in the paper - a jury found a young man (handsome) guilty of child rape and he was jailed. A middle aged woman * on the jury * somehow had a note passed to the accused after he had been sentenced reading "Chin up sexy"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...elling-d-fought-corner-trial-signed-KISS.html
There was something very, very odd about the whole Hogg case. Missing pieces of the puzzle.
Cottonweaver - in that post about fund raising - I didn`t put the asteriks - I actually typed the site name but it must have been deleted, but I`m sure we all know which fund raising site I am referring to.
I have known people to raise a LOT of money for many causes including help with funding legal fees to fight for justice - check out "Truth about Zane" for example. I think a case like this would get a lot of support. But I think it would have to be set up quickly.
Mr Gray would have to be contacted and give his permission, maybe through one of the reporters who has interviewed him and who has an interest in the case. It would generate a lot of publicity. What do people feel on here? Is there anyone willing to help to try to make it happen?
Michelle

 

[soozieqtips]

Hi Soozie

What I cannot understand is how that judge could possibly have dismissed all of the warning signs from all of the different agencies. Reminds me of Masipa.

Have you seen the quote from the vicious letter BB sent to Ellie's grandparents? This was sent whilst they had custody, so must have been available to show to the court during the Justice Hogg hearing. How could that be ignored? How? If Hogg saw that letter and still gave Ellie back to her parents then her actions go beyond dereliction of duty into frank criminal negligence in my view.

Someone suggested a petition and I do wonder whether one of those 100,000 signature petitions forcing parliament to debate the call for a public enquiry should be started (if it hasn't already).

Hi Lyra!

BIB 1 - yes I read the quote from the letter. Nasty hate-filled vitriol towards someone who only wanted to keep his precious granddaughter safe. BB is a psycho of the highest order.

BIB 2 - How Hogg could, with a clear conscience, hand Ellie back to someone so obviously dangerous, unpredictable, violent and angry - is beyond belief, and like you say, if she was aware of the letter, and still came to the decision that a vulnerable young child would be better off taken from her loving grandparents and left with Butler, then I despair. I really do. Shouldn't we expect a higher standard of common sense from senior judges when they're involved in momentous decisions about a child's safety? Apparently not. Frightening that Hogg and Masipa can't be the only judges minimising the effect of violence against children and women.

 

[cottonweaver]

( He's blubbing and rocking on his mattress. She's already had several spats.)
How do you know that or are you just predicting...if you are I bet they are pretty close to reality.

Sorry Michelle, that wasn't a scoop, just trying to cheer up Gigi before she reached for the Chardonnay as she said earlier.

I hope they go around arrogantly boasting to their new" social circle" that they`re f....ing innocent and f...ing going to appeal and win (and get lots of compensation!) and be outta there very very soon.

Ha! I can almost see her when you say that,........ Sarf London rude girl me, see you right on the outside babe, laters ...blah blah.
Yes she is going to get in trouble inside and I doubt she will have any visitors nor anyone sending he cash etc for the tuck shop etc. ( Sally said she was pretty scary & persistent, sorry you missed her post but I think I can say that much)

OR she'll do her "It's cornflower blue actually" persona and someone will see RED!
( One of Tortoise's classic court posts where JG corrects Brown QC re her blue shirt to the rolling eyes of the jury LOL)

Chin up sexy!

Oh my! Maybe!
More strongly for me was as if she was not a Judge in there but some kind of Justice Angel Fairy Godmother, come down to solve their years of fighting & suffering. She said she felt "joy" at the outcome. Plus I genuinely feel there was some reverse snobbery* going on. Hogg is an aristo. I can't explain it properly, Anyway, for sure, he could be charming, but she seemed to think swearing=salt of the earth thus genuine. * There's a special name for it, it'll come to me. **


Yes re site. I knew you would have typed it but then this site automatically asterisks it.
IDk if it requires NG's permission but he may NOT want it or may decline it if asked, but if it was a fait accompli who knows. 10k people give £5, easily achieved to recoup that life savings. IDK

What Lyra suggested a page or 2 back is a really good idea too - petition for public enquiry. Have a look .

ETA that phrase ** is "nostalgie de la boue" literally ="yearning for the mud",

one interpretation is "ascribing higher spiritual values to people and cultures considered "lower" than oneself, the romanticisation of the lower classes by upper classes" etc, if you get my drift.

 

[michelle230]

Love your humour - maybe you could be a scriptwriter for Coronation Street as it`s gone right downhill lately!
Yes Lyra`s idea is a really good one and pretty easy to set up though 100,000 is a large number but possible. If people agree, then let`s go for it.
Think we would need NG`s permissionfor but if we found the right person to put the idea to him I can`t think why he wouldn`t agree.
Unfortunately money talks in the legal system and it`s obviously very expensive. He must be so frustrated as well as all the other emotions.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi Lyra!

BIB 1 - yes I read the quote from the letter. Nasty hate-filled vitriol towards someone who only wanted to keep his precious granddaughter safe. BB is a psycho of the highest order.

BIB 2 - How Hogg could, with a clear conscience, hand Ellie back to someone so obviously dangerous, unpredictable, violent and angry - is beyond belief, and like you say, if she was aware of the letter, and still came to the decision that a vulnerable young child would be better off taken from her loving grandparents and left with Butler, then I despair. I really do. Shouldn't we expect a higher standard of common sense from senior judges when they're involved in momentous decisions about a child's safety? Apparently not. Frightening that Hogg and Masipa can't be the only judges minimising the effect of violence against children and women.

BIB And soozie, he passed his psych reports without any Psychopathy or PD diagnosed. Sounds familiar?

 

[flutterby]

Michelle, I have to say I wondered if there was something going on behind the scenes with BB and Hogg too, whether 'good' or 'bad' from her perspective. I just don't understand how else he could have influenced her so much.

MOO

Not saying anymore because libel.

 

[Gigi-G]

Don't be down about it. My fault.

His appeal will be squashed. They're both locked up right now. He wont get out til he is 60, if that. ( He's blubbing and rocking on his mattress. She's already had several spats.) That's three reasons to be cheerful again.

Lol yeah its just what the hell was Hogg thinking. Maybe Max hsd something to do with it eh?

Yew tree?

Lalalalalaaaaa imo

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[cottonweaver]

Love your humour - maybe you could be a scriptwriter for Coronation Street as it`s gone right downhill lately!
Yes Lyra`s idea is a really good one and pretty easy to set up though 100,000 is a large number but possible. If people agree, then let`s go for it.
Think we would need NG`s permissionfor but if we found the right person to put the idea to him I can`t think why he wouldn`t agree.
Unfortunately money talks in the legal system and it`s obviously very expensive. He must be so frustrated as well as all the other emotions.

Not sure about that but Tx
Wish I could find Tortoise's "cornflower" post, it was a corker.
No point in just hand - wringing is there, it'd be a dull thread, even black humour is better than none.

As for no friends visiting her. The only visits JG is from a DV counsellor, ideal time to start that in prison now as BB isn't there, but not confident that'll happen even though I bet they have some great staff in there who could work on opening a little "chink" of progress with her. She also avows Christianity so doubtless the pastor will be visiting.
( ooh Maybe she'll end up in a Carmelite nunnery - take a silence vow. Best thing IMO they have small "cells" too and no men.)

Whoever her room mate is, that woman will end up ripping down JG's inevitable BB photos from above her bed. You couldn't sleep with his beady eyes peering down at you !

 

[Tortoise]

Michelle, I have to say I wondered if there was something going on behind the scenes with BB and Hogg too, whether 'good' or 'bad' from her perspective. I just don't understand how else he could have influenced her so much.

MOO

Not saying anymore because libel.

Me too. A mixture of what cotton and Michelle have said. I think he charmed her and I think it's one of his less obvious skills - it gives me the creeps but a few people will inevitably fall for it. He's a manipulator, thinks he's got the gift of the gab, thought everyone found him funny, honest and only a little bit (justifiably) bad tempered, thought he had made Mr Brown QC look a right fool. Only he hadn't.

And that is why he was so shocked with the verdict. It knocked him down from his million mile high pedestal.

 

[flutterby]

Me too. A mixture of what cotton and Michelle have said. I think he charmed her and I think it's one of his less obvious skills - it gives me the creeps but a few people will inevitably fall for it. He's a manipulator, thinks he's got the gift of the gab, thought everyone found him funny, honest and only a little bit (justifiably) bad tempered, thought he had made Mr Brown QC look a right fool. Only he hadn't.

And that is why he was so shocked with the verdict. It knocked him down from his million mile high pedestal.

MOO but do you think he could have threatened her in some way? I think it's incredibly unlikely but he does have form with the grandparents, the ex-GF, JG...

 

[Gigi-G]

What a difficult article to read.

😢😭😣

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[cottonweaver]

Incidentally -
Just spent 10 mins looking for "cornflower blue" - T's old post. Never mind

Did pass by one of Sally's old posts where Sally said she reckoned Borderline PD fitted for JG.

Night night all.
I have to vote tomorrow and I am still "undecided" - I should be watching EUREF TV not WS. Bizarre that I have swung all the way from one position and now ended up one of the 10% undecided!

 

[michelle230]

As the saying goes "Nowt as strange as folk". Did you see the link I put a couple of posts back about the - almost middle aged - juror in a convicted rape case? Would like to post more but as you say...difficult to! But one professional body (maybe Sutton SS) described the report as "gushing"...The language/description used seemed very personal as opposed to very professional/official.

 

[Tortoise]

I thought the wardrobe doors being open was their last minute staging, just like the toppled stool but IDK if they do have something to do with the actual true assault. Not following you.

Yeah I didn't make it too clear. Re the crime scene photos, all I was wondering was whether the photos would have made the jury's job a lot easier than we thought it was. If for instance the bed was too far away from the wardrobe to have made their initial story to neighbours an obvious fabrication.

Still sounds a bit confusing, but if you know that JG gave a version that could not possibly have been true, to someone who she thought was never going to find out so it didn't matter what she told her, the actual fact of that lie lets you know that JG had something to hide and never believed herself that it was an accident. If you see what I mean. (hopefully )

 

[michelle230]

I don`t think so Flutterby but I think he may have charmed her as Tortoise and Cotton said, and for some of the more complex reasons that Cotton said also. Maybe stuff going on at a subconscious level.............

 

[Tortoise]

MOO but do you think he could have threatened her in some way? I think it's incredibly unlikely but he does have form with the grandparents, the ex-GF, JG...

Gut instinct tells me no, he wouldn't have dared.