GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[ColourPurple]

Q3. She claims the blood trail in the house and the large number of her blood spots in Ellie's room was from her menstrual bleeding, which means her underwear and trousers must have been soaked through. Why didn't she change her underwear and trousers on the day of Ellie's death when she changed her top?
A3. She wears large maternity pads and although that was soaked through she only needed to change into a fresh pad, which she would do every couple of hours. Her trousers were clean. (Tetlow and FitzGerald had the lovely task of inspecting her trousers, which had been taken into evidence by the police and they confirmed that there was no blood staining on them, inside or out). It sounds to me as if the jury isn't buying her explanation of having recently stood in Ellie's room while allowing her menstrual blood to drip down her legs, causing 38 blood spots on the carpet.

I like that they're asking her more about the blood spots because if she IS lying about it being menstrual blood and IF the blood was fresh then there has to be a reason why she is lying.

Is it just that she doesn't want to admit that BB was also violent towards her?... or, as her blood was found in Ellie's room could she be lying to hide the fact that both she and Ellie were attacked by BB in Ellie's room that day? And as it seems unlikely he'd have attacked her when she returned from work when Ellie was lying there dead, could it have been before she left for work? Did he lose his temper over something and attack one of them and then the other intervened and got hurt too? That would place JG at the crime scene and if she then went to work knowing Ellie was seriously injured surely it woudl open up the possibility of other charges against her? Maybe with joint enterprise coming into play. Would that be reason enough for her to lie about the source of the drops of blood and to continue defending BB ?

Do the age of the injuries fit with it happening before JG left for work and then Ellie either deteriorating or being hit again later?

 

[ColourPurple]

They both have psychopathic traits. His tends to be boosted with a spurious violent rage. Altho she can be aggressive also. It fits BB profile to be the one to lash out. Many men would stop themselves. When an argument with a woman escalated. BB didn't.
We didn't see/hear of any violent fighting concerning JG. But I'm sure the toxicity of these 2 together. Probably could end in physical fighting.
And we've seen the venomous texts he'd sent her. What if Ellie did rub him up the wrong way for whatever reason. We know how antagonising some children can be when the want something. Can I can I can I can I.
Could be something as simple as that which could send BB into a blind fury. Lash out not thinking. Not looking. Not realising his own strength.

But the answer to What happened with Ellie? We'll never know. Unless one testify the truth.

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BIB I think we heard that JG split BB's lip at one point though. When he mentioned her spitting, unless i misread "spit" for "split".

 

[Gigi-G]

BIB I think we heard that JG split BB's lip at one point though. When he mentioned her spitting, unless i misread "spit" for "split".

She probably did split his lip. They both egg each other on.

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[Tortoise]

BIB I think we heard that JG split BB's lip at one point though. When he mentioned her spitting, unless i misread "spit" for "split".

He said she spat at him AND split his jaw. Spoilt for choice.

 

[ColourPurple]

Stay at home mum - 3rd hand info from other parents "Hey Jennie , it's Xmas day next week so the school shuts tomorrow" "Oh really, tx for that Mrs. Bloggs" etc etc . Even more bizarre........ considering she didn't even do the school run - she said BB did that in her police interview.

I don't think her "maybe if I were a stay at home mother.." quote will go down well with any mothers on the jury TBH. Any working mothers are going to think "What? You don't need to be a stay at home mother to keep a note of term times, or to email or check on the schools website, the local education authority website or a local facebook page to check when they are?" and any stay at home mothers are going to wonder A) whether she's trying to have a dig at stay at home mothers and B) why her "stay at home father" didn't ask other parents or the teacher before they broke up.

And as for not being used to term times as they didn't have Ellie from a baby and were getting used to all that... well Ellie was only 6 and some kids don't start school till they're almost 5 so it's not like every other parent had had years and years of term times to get used to.Plus we've all been to school , we all know that in England you go back to school in Septemebr after the 6 weeks holiday and that the actual day changes every year so youhave to check.

 

[ColourPurple]

He said she spat at him AND split his jaw. Spoilt for choice.

Thanks. Did you happen to see how she reacted when he said that? Is she ok with him saying she's physically violent despite her swearing that he has never been physically violent to her? In effect, painting her as the violent one.

 

[Tortoise]

I like that they're asking her more about the blood spots because if she IS lying about it being menstrual blood and IF the blood was fresh then there has to be a reason why she is lying.

Is it just that she doesn't want to admit that BB was also violent towards her?... or, as her blood was found in Ellie's room could she be lying to hide the fact that both she and Ellie were attacked by BB in Ellie's room that day? And as it seems unlikely he'd have attacked her when she returned from work when Ellie was lying there dead, could it have been before she left for work? Did he lose his temper over something and attack one of them and then the other intervened and got hurt too? That would place JG at the crime scene and if she then went to work knowing Ellie was seriously injured surely it woudl open up the possibility of other charges against her? Maybe with joint enterprise coming into play. Would that be reason enough for her to lie about the source of the drops of blood and to continue defending BB ?

Do the age of the injuries fit with it happening before JG left for work and then Ellie either deteriorating or being hit again later?

IMO he hit her when she came home. She had blood on her collar which she tried to hide by putting it in the washing machine, and I doubt she'd have worn it to work like that.

Either that or she self-harmed but I don't see how the police wouldn't have checked her over. They took her clothes away. He threw out her towel. That means it was incriminating - nothing with an innocent explanation such as period blood. It is so strange that they didn't mention a wound that could have bled. Even a wack to the nose or the teeth would have left a mark. Unless she covered it with make up. There were also blood spots of hers on the mirrored cabinet in the downstairs toilet, which is where she said she puts her make up on in the morning. She said it could have got there when she was squeezing a spot or brushing her teeth.

He was probably bringing her in to line, she may have asked him if he did it or suggested it? then he thought she would turn him over, would confess to his beating of her, and his way of dealing with everything is to lash out.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks. Did you happen to see how she reacted when he said that? Is she ok with him saying she's physically violent despite her swearing that he has never been physically violent to her? In effect, painting her as the violent one.

She didn't look ashamed. never does though. I think she goes with whatever he decides. If he's going to slate her on the stand she can shoulder it for her man. Husband she called him a couple of times, even after he's said very clearly he doesn't want to be with her.

 

[dalsglen]

Ah yeah of course it was him filming, duh!! That poor wee mite, I wish I could clatter them both round their heads

 

[ColourPurple]

IMO he hit her when she came home. She had blood on her collar which she tried to hide by putting it in the washing machine, and I doubt she'd have worn it to work like that.

Either that or she self-harmed but I don't see how the police wouldn't have checked her over. They took her clothes away. He threw out her towel. That means it was incriminating - nothing with an innocent explanation such as period blood. It is so strange that they didn't mention a wound that could have bled. Even a wack to the nose or the teeth would have left a mark. Unless she covered it with make up. There were also blood spots of hers on the mirrored cabinet in the downstairs toilet, which is where she said she puts her make up on in the morning. She said it could have got there when she was squeezing a spot or brushing her teeth.

He was probably bringing her in to line, she may have asked him if he did it or suggested it? then he thought she would turn him over, would confess to his beating of her, and his way of dealing with everything is to lash out.

Ah, I'd assumed the blood on her top was from Ellie but if it was hers then yes maybe your scenario is right, I was thinking "Why would anybody hit somebody whose child had just died?" but I had forgotten to look at it through BB's warped eyes. From what I've heard of her I really don't like the woman but if he did hit her after killing their daughter and to make her comply with his cover up plan then I wish she'd just have spoken up and testified against him, regardless of what info he might have on her.

 

[ColourPurple]

She didn't look ashamed. never does though. I think she goes with whatever he decides. If he's going to slate her on the stand she can shoulder it for her man. Husband she called him a couple of times, even after he's said very clearly he doesn't want to be with her.

I wondered whether she'd have looked annoyed, as it's going against the happy little family picture she was painting and making her the baddie.

Remember the claim that they only argued by text... I was watching a repeat of 24 hours in A & E last night and they had a couple with 6 kids, who'd been together 30 years who said that they never argued in front of the children but would argue by text instead. In their case they said they'd end up making each other laugh via text and make up but it does seem that some people do argue by text to avoid arguing in front of the kids.

 

[dalsglen]

She didn't look ashamed. never does though. I think she goes with whatever he decides. If he's going to slate her on the stand she can shoulder it for her man. Husband she called him a couple of times, even after he's said very clearly he doesn't want to be with her.

Ah yeah of course it was him filming, duh!! That poor wee mite, I wish I could clatter them both round their heads

Ah, I'd assumed the blood on her top was from Ellie but if it was hers then yes maybe your scenario is right, I was thinking "Why would anybody hit somebody whose child had just died?" but I had forgotten to look at it through BB's warped eyes. From what I've heard of her I really don't like the woman but if he did hit her after killing their daughter and to make her comply with his cover up plan then I wish she'd just have spoken up and testified against him, regardless of what info he might have on her.

But it was all JGs fault that Ellie was 'like that', so of course he would hit/blame her. You know the typical... look what you made me do!!!

 

[dalsglen]

Ah ffs ive multiquoted by mistake just by scrolling the page.. still dont know how to do it lol!! Only meant to quote purple there!

 

[squish]

Thanks for the account, Tortoise [emoji106]

If I was on the jury I would have asked JG:

If you were so frightened of the hospital mistaking innocent injuries for abuse that you refused to allow Ellie to get treatment, why did you keep going to hospital for your own injuries?

She is so selfish. She didn't take Ellie to hospital out of fear of the abuse being discovered. But JG's own pain and suffering were enough to override that fear and get herself treated.

 

[theirmommy]

Here are my thoughts, for what its worth... I think they both abused poor Ellie throughout the 11 months she was with them. She maybe even more than him, just moo. I think the first incident took place early that morning before JG left for work. I also think the blood on JG's shirt was from him backhanding her. I think JG knew Ellie was in a bad state that morning. I think they planned to have BB's good friend (we all know the name, just not saying it) come over and ask him to say he was with Ellie. That's why she told people at work that her mate was visiting his sick father and that Ellie's godfather was watching her. I think she left for work, thinking that was the plan. Except BB called the friend and he told him no way in hell. Then I think BB panicked maybe, or was already drinking, or the girls pissed him off and thats when the fatal blow came to the head. At that point he calls JG and says come home now, and tells her the plan has gone to *****.

I will never in a thousand years understand why some women put their man before their children. My kids come before my husband and before myself. I go without all the time to make sure my two have the best they possibly can. Reading all the evidence in this case makes me mad. I really hate both of them.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thanks for the account, Tortoise [emoji106]

If I was on the jury I would have asked JG:

If you were so frightened of the hospital mistaking innocent injuries for abuse that you refused to allow Ellie to get treatment, why did you keep going to hospital for your own injuries?

She is so selfish. She didn't take Ellie to hospital out of fear of the abuse being discovered. But JG's own pain and suffering were enough to override that fear and get herself treated.

I agree totally. She's a real piece of work.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it was him. I watched it again yesterday. While he's on the call the phone is swinging around all over the place, mainly at floor. when he's finished his call and told whoever to f-off, two pictures are taken of Ellie. I think this was going to be part of his photo album of evidence, like he took a picture in June. I think now that Ellie had been told to stand there to have her picture taken, he'd told her to close her eyes and she'd remained like that when he got the phone call.

So why would he be compiling photographic evidence? Mmm. That needs some thinking over. why did he even admit to wanting to take a photo in June? I don't see how it helps him, unless he's not suspecting that they are going to be reported by the school and he just thinks it's like an insurance for the future, to show how clumsy Ellie always was, because he now has school as back-up to Ellie's story about the puppy to her teachers.

I don't think that is blood on the bandage around her leg. It looks to me like 3 (or 4?) flesh coloured plasters to secure the bandage in place.

I've only just seen this post.
Tortoise , can i ask you how you know it's June for the video date - we've always been told it is "undated" so June wasn't mentioned in the press so I just assumed maybe it was October and the back eye related to a skull injury at that time. ( Apparently they are connected, medically.)

It's also very interesting if him taking 2 photos of her is intentional - did that info come out in the trial ? ( yes I can see that closed eye pose fits with him trying to get a face shot of those injuries.) How very strange.

Well it's not that strange considering it's been argued here that they may have been "documenting" thru photos/videos in the past. However I just assumed the video was a mistake. So the video capture was accidental but he was intending to take a couple of photos.
wonder what it means?.....

 

[ColourPurple]

But it was all JGs fault that Ellie was 'like that', so of course he would hit/blame her. You know the typical... look what you made me do!!!

With BB telling JG that he hated them both I can't help but wonder if this was something they'd planned to happen, maybe not that day or in that way but at some point. To get Ellie out of the picture so that they could be the perfect family of 3. I can't get my head around staying with a man who not only says he hates you but says he hates your child too.And then there's the whole acceptance of her death when they first see her dead body. Unless it just hasn't been reported then neither of them have said that they questioned how she'd died or what had happened on first seeing her. BB doesn't bother asking her little sister what happened and JG doesn't bother asking BB what happened.They both just seem to accept that she's dead, like it's a normal thing to happen, an expected thing...

 

[ColourPurple]

Here are my thoughts, for what its worth... I think they both abused poor Ellie throughout the 11 months she was with them. She maybe even more than him, just moo. I think the first incident took place early that morning before JG left for work. I also think the blood on JG's shirt was from him backhanding her. I think JG knew Ellie was in a bad state that morning. I think they planned to have BB's good friend (we all know the name, just not saying it) come over and ask him to say he was with Ellie. That's why she told people at work that her mate was visiting his sick father and that Ellie's godfather was watching her. I think she left for work, thinking that was the plan. Except BB called the friend and he told him no way in hell. Then I think BB panicked maybe, or was already drinking, or the girls pissed him off and thats when the fatal blow came to the head. At that point he calls JG and says come home now, and tells her the plan has gone to *****.

I will never in a thousand years understand why some women put their man before their children. My kids come before my husband and before myself. I go without all the time to make sure my two have the best they possibly can. Reading all the evidence in this case makes me mad. I really hate both of them.

OOh now that's a good catch. That the friend he rang might be "the godfather" that she used in her excuse for work. I wonder if he actually IS her godfather, though not sure they would have had chance to christen Ellie as a baby if she was taken into the care of her grandparents. I wonder if he asked him for help in a cover up or whether they knew Ellie was seriously injured and where going to leave her in his care to put him in the frame.

 

[Tortoise]

I've only just seen this post.
Tortoise , can i ask you how you know it's June for the video date - we've always been told it is "undated" so June wasn't mentioned in the press so I just assumed maybe it was October and the back eye related to a skull injury at that time. ( Apparently they are connected, medically.)

It's also very interesting if him taking 2 photos of her is intentional - did that info come out in the trial ? ( yes I can see that closed eye pose fits with him trying to get a face shot of those injuries.) How very strange.

Well it's not that strange considering it's been argued here that they may have been "documenting" thru photos/videos in the past. However I just assumed the video was a mistake. So the video capture was accidental but he was intending to take a couple of photos.
wonder what it means?.....

I think we've had crossed wires again

I may not have explained before what happened in June, or assumed it had been reported in press so you would've known what I meant. So -

In June they said Ellie tripped over the hoover cord at the bottom of the stairs, before JG went to work, and fell into a step. Pushed her glasses into bridge of her nose and gave her a black eye and a bumped forehead. JG said she saw it happen but thinking about it I think she's given two different accounts of what happened to the court. She first said she was washing up in the kitchen and told Ellie to go upstairs and bring her school bag. But I'm sure she said under cross-exam that she saw it happen because she was in the downstairs loo putting on her make up. Anyway, perhaps I've mistaken that for another occasion, but something is now nagging at me because I can't think what that other occasion would have been. Anyway, BB phoned his solicitor at 9am. Then took Ellie to the doctor and that is when he said the doctor looked at him like he was mad, and said children do fall over. (I'm not believing one word of it, here again we have a child falling like a plank, without putting her hands out to catch herself, just slap bang face into the stairs.)

So BB took a photo of Ellie's face. It hasn't been put in the papers, it was a photo of her with her glasses on. He said he took the photo as proof because he was now paranoid since 2007.

This isn't the accidental video and photos we've seen in the kitchen with him swearing on the phone. That video is undated. Because of the black eye we have assumed it was when they claim Ellie tripped over the dog, down the stairs, because she went back to school with a black eye. Something isn't stacking up with that incident, which is when he put frozen peas on her bumped head and said she was concussed. She went back to school with a plaster over her forehead as well. But I can't see a wound in the photo that needs a plaster, or a bump on her head.

My post was suggesting he was photographing Ellie for his evidence, as he had in June.

I hope that clears up any confusion.