GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

  • #481
Here are my thoughts, for what its worth... I think they both abused poor Ellie throughout the 11 months she was with them. She maybe even more than him, just moo. I think the first incident took place early that morning before JG left for work. I also think the blood on JG's shirt was from him backhanding her. I think JG knew Ellie was in a bad state that morning. I think they planned to have BB's good friend (we all know the name, just not saying it) come over and ask him to say he was with Ellie. That's why she told people at work that her mate was visiting his sick father and that Ellie's godfather was watching her. I think she left for work, thinking that was the plan. Except BB called the friend and he told him no way in hell. Then I think BB panicked maybe, or was already drinking, or the girls pissed him off and thats when the fatal blow came to the head. At that point he calls JG and says come home now, and tells her the plan has gone to *****.

I will never in a thousand years understand why some women put their man before their children. My kids come before my husband and before myself. I go without all the time to make sure my two have the best they possibly can. Reading all the evidence in this case makes me mad. I really hate both of them.
I'm not sure if she actually meant to harm Ellie physically. But it's quoted she suffered from PND.
And I don't think the bonding was there. And I think there may even be some rejection and resentment too.
But as she's become to BBs temper as the norm. She's allowed him to discipline the children too. And as Ellie was the eldest. (Supposed to set an example to youngest) And awful lot rested on poor Ellie's shoulders.
It's been mentioned the children being released back into their custody again. After such a length of time apart. The children were in a sense settled.
So I don't think the home coming was what they expected.
Both children were unsettled. And we know poor Ellie was. Which could of sparked up her wetting herself.
Which I imagine was a bone of contention for BB as he was the at home dad.
And that made him blow his fuse. I also think that JG would also attack Ellie. If not physically but verbally. And her seeing BB'S frustration. She'd turn a blind eye to it. Or say nothing not wishing to get into an altercation herself with BB.
So she knew. Even if she didn't do it herself.
Which leads me to the day of the actual incident of Ellie's death.
I can't choose between her turn of events as in go to work late due to storm damage. BB Texts her to get home she leaves via taxi. She gets home and she goes off hysterical at BB he slaps her she bleeds.. etc etc......
OR ...... something happens that morning. And it's planned to try and keep things as normal as possible.. he calls her to come home..... the facade takes place.

I really can't get my head round either version of events. As none add up to me. There's too many discrepancies.

And I think YD. Has heard a lot of what's been going on. But obviously can't testify.

Anyhow we won't know the truth. Unless JG relieves medical help in solving her psychosis. And unburdens herself..

Jmoo

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
  • #482
I'm not sure if she actually meant to harm Ellie physically. But it's quoted she suffered from PND.
And I don't think the bonding was there. And I think there may even be some rejection and resentment too.
But as she's become to BBs temper as the norm. She's allowed him to discipline the children too. And as Ellie was the eldest. (Supposed to set an example to youngest) And awful lot rested on poor Ellie's shoulders.
It's been mentioned the children being released back into their custody again. After such a length of time apart. The children were in a sense settled.
So I don't think the home coming was what they expected.
Both children were unsettled. And we know poor Ellie was. Which could of sparked up her wetting herself.
Which I imagine was a bone of contention for BB as he was the at home dad.
And that made him blow his fuse. I also think that JG would also attack Ellie. If not physically but verbally. And her seeing BB'S frustration. She'd turn a blind eye to it. Or say nothing not wishing to get into an altercation herself with BB.
So she knew. Even if she didn't do it herself.
Which leads me to the day of the actual incident of Ellie's death.
I can't choose between her turn of events as in go to work late due to storm damage. BB Texts her to get home she leaves via taxi. She gets home and she goes off hysterical at BB he slaps her she bleeds.. etc etc......
OR ...... something happens that morning. And it's planned to try and keep things as normal as possible.. he calls her to come home..... the facade takes place.

I really can't get my head round either version of events. As none add up to me. There's too many discrepancies.

And I think YD. Has heard a lot of what's been going on. But obviously can't testify.

Anyhow we won't know the truth. Unless JG relieves medical help in solving her psychosis. And unburdens herself..

Jmoo

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
I knows it's all speculation and as you say we will never know the whole truth but I don't think her going to work etc was a facade because she has made too many mistakes as he in what they have said. Her running for a cab seemed really genuine to be fair. The conversation the taxi driver heard which she denied seems to imply that she didn't know what was going on and then the whole events that go from there have actually caused them more trouble. Ellie may have been assaulted in the morning before JG left but they didn't think it was serious as it seems before Ellie had recovered. ALso if they had believed it was fatal then JG wouldn't have gone to work as then she would be present and BB wouldn't the have been on his own which is clearly what they were trying to prevent people thinking . I think he would have gone out and JG would have stayed home and said it happened in her care . Somethings g may have happened in the morning but then something more happened later when JG was at work. Neighbours hear shouting when she gets back and there would have been no need for that if the whole thing had been set up from the morning. This is JMO
 
  • #483
I knows it's all speculation and as you say we will never know the whole truth but I don't think her going to work etc was a facade because she has made too many mistakes as he in what they have said. Her running for a cab seemed really genuine to be fair. The conversation the taxi driver heard which she denied seems to imply that she didn't know what was going on and then the whole events that go from there have actually caused them more trouble. Ellie may have been assaulted in the morning before JG left but they didn't think it was serious as it seems before Ellie had recovered. ALso if they had believed it was fatal then JG wouldn't have gone to work as then she would be present and BB wouldn't the have been on his own which is clearly what they were trying to prevent people thinking . I think he would have gone out and JG would have stayed home and said it happened in her care . Somethings g may have happened in the morning but then something more happened later when JG was at work. Neighbours hear shouting when she gets back and there would have been no need for that if the whole thing had been set up from the morning. This is JMO
BIB - exactly. I think she got hurt in the am and like you said, they didn't think it was that bad. JG goes to work and then the rest goes down.
 
  • #484
I knows it's all speculation and as you say we will never know the whole truth but I don't think her going to work etc was a facade because she has made too many mistakes as he in what they have said. Her running for a cab seemed really genuine to be fair. The conversation the taxi driver heard which she denied seems to imply that she didn't know what was going on and then the whole events that go from there have actually caused them more trouble. Ellie may have been assaulted in the morning before JG left but they didn't think it was serious as it seems before Ellie had recovered. ALso if they had believed it was fatal then JG wouldn't have gone to work as then she would be present and BB wouldn't the have been on his own which is clearly what they were trying to prevent people thinking . I think he would have gone out and JG would have stayed home and said it happened in her care . Somethings g may have happened in the morning but then something more happened later when JG was at work. Neighbours hear shouting when she gets back and there would have been no need for that if the whole thing had been set up from the morning. This is JMO

BIB This definitely works for the oddities of the morning on the one hand AND the display of genuine shock after the call.

PS Thanks Tortoise for clearing up the video vs the photos. So they were documenting stuff as back up. Oh yes, also , what occurred to me before is that they make sure to take E to docs over every non-serious injury ( and deny her care for all the serious ones) , it could be a clever cover for them.?

All in all, a hideous set-up for two young children and as other posters have just said - created by two very selfish people who were getting increasingly paranoid.

This half- term break in the hearing is good for the jury and very bad for BB & JG IMO.
 
  • #485
I'm not sure if she actually meant to harm Ellie physically. But it's quoted she suffered from PND.
And I don't think the bonding was there. And I think there may even be some rejection and resentment too.
But as she's become to BBs temper as the norm. She's allowed him to discipline the children too. And as Ellie was the eldest. (Supposed to set an example to youngest) And awful lot rested on poor Ellie's shoulders.
It's been mentioned the children being released back into their custody again. After such a length of time apart. The children were in a sense settled.
So I don't think the home coming was what they expected.
Both children were unsettled. And we know poor Ellie was. Which could of sparked up her wetting herself.
Which I imagine was a bone of contention for BB as he was the at home dad.
And that made him blow his fuse. I also think that JG would also attack Ellie. If not physically but verbally. And her seeing BB'S frustration. She'd turn a blind eye to it. Or say nothing not wishing to get into an altercation herself with BB.
So she knew. Even if she didn't do it herself.
Which leads me to the day of the actual incident of Ellie's death.
I can't choose between her turn of events as in go to work late due to storm damage. BB Texts her to get home she leaves via taxi. She gets home and she goes off hysterical at BB he slaps her she bleeds.. etc etc......
OR ...... something happens that morning. And it's planned to try and keep things as normal as possible.. he calls her to come home..... the facade takes place.

I really can't get my head round either version of events. As none add up to me. There's too many discrepancies.

And I think YD. Has heard a lot of what's been going on. But obviously can't testify.

Anyhow we won't know the truth. Unless JG relieves medical help in solving her psychosis. And unburdens herself..

Jmoo

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

BIB Let's not forget she has no actual diagnosis for PTSD , so she may be making it up/exaggerating.....?
UL - Think you are spot on there.
I wouldn't be surprised if JG has slapped Ellie, for show, to support BB - not in uncontrolled rage as he does, doubt she caused her any serious injury.
 
  • #486
Jeez, had a lot to catch up on. Decided to cut back on caffeine... well lets put it this way, I was sleeping at this time last night!! Dont even know where to start!

Firstly, thanks cotton for the psycho test... 11 :) phewww

Did we ever find out WHO recorded that 'spaced out' video Ellie? Just wondering why someone would record a video of her like that, and of BB behaving like that, JG perhaps?

IIRC the video was taken by accident?
 
  • #487
I have no doubt whatsoever of his guilt, or her guilt as a participating abuser.


1. No reason for discovering Ellie -

They've stitched themselves over with the cake excuse. It was served onto 4 plates in the kitchen. Clearly JG did this (if he did it there would have been 2 pieces, or 3) and it was her reason for sending YD to wake up Ellie. She said this in her police interview the day after, at a time when they hadn't had a chance to align their stories in detail. She stuck with that story until he changed his story when they went to trial in 2015.

If there was another reason for him discovering Ellie he would have given it and wouldn't have changed that part, as he knew it would cause problems for JG's story. He's forced her to admit perverting the course of justice by saying her account of finding Ellie was a lie.

2. JG's blood in the bathroom -

They've both woven JG's visit to the bathroom as soon as she came home, into their versions. I don't think it would have been an important part of his version, or a memory he would have - he can't remember other things because he was in shock - it is something they've agreed to align, not realising that it didn't need to be something he was aware of. By putting it in his version too he's made it a suspicious event. He's trying to account for her blood drops without knowing if she would have left any. They know they have to explain JG's blood drops in the bath. What they haven't explained is her trail leading to the bathroom from Ellie's room. If it was something innocuous such as JG getting a nose bleed in Ellie's room or even injuring herself, they would have just said that. So he injured her. And he must have gone into her room or the bathroom to get JG's towel to throw away. How did he know she had left a bloodied towel?


3. The September school absence -

This is not explained by JG not knowing the date term started. The school rang them both and left messages on both their phones, and emailed, yet they still did not send Ellie back until the following week. That would have been my question to her as a juror. This absence coincides with JG's search for head trauma, which she says was for BB.

4. Not taking Ellie to the hospital for concussion -

His excuse is 2007, her excuse is Ellie seemed fine. Neither are plausible. He would take Ellie to the GP in June when her injuries and symptoms were less serious. They had both done enough medical research to know that concussion was a serious event, especially in a child with life threatening brain injuries as a baby. She didn't even make an internet search then to see what the advice was, so they were hiding this event and she would put herself and him before getting medical treatment for Ellie. Wouldn't even tell the school to keep a special eye on her, when bruising was obvious so she had a reason to be concerned. School had to ask Ellie what happened so obviously neither parent had explained to the teacher.


5. Broken scapula -

Nothing explains why Ellie would not have been in pain or have restricted movement from a broken shoulder, meaning they must have been aware. She was kept off swimming either because of the bruises or because she couldn't rotate her arm fully, even after having been kept at home for 14 days. Getting a medical letter on 8th Oct because school is pressing, but still not sending Ellie back to school until 14th Oct. They've set up a cover story for this with family flu but JG was at work during this time and texting BB saying she was taking pills because she was so ill but had to work. It was their 'evidence' in case Social Services became involved again.

6. JG's list of Ellie's problems -

They are both massively embarrassed about this list. They know it shows that they had singled out Ellie for persecution.


7. Ellie wetting herself -

They are both at pains to say this was about YD. They know what this signifies in a child of Ellie's age - she has been fine for 6 years until she returned to their home.

8. BB's texts -

He hates JG and Ellie. Ellie is just like JG with her mouth. Take Ellie and don't come back. No mention of YD. Ellie obviously triggers his rage and violence and loss of control, just like JG.


9. JG's hospital admissions in a false name -

For this never ending pregnancy termination. There was no ectopic pregnancy, there would not have been uncertainty about that from a 16 week scan. There was no need for the false name, other than protecting BB because of DV injuries.

10. JG's background -

Missing from her evidence in chief. Starts from the date she met BB. He gave his childhood history, hers was passed over. If there was anything there to be proud about - good upbringing, respectability etc they would have laboured it to make a good impression with the jury.

11. Ellie's frequent injuries start after the Social Workers stop visiting -

Nothing for 6 years in care. Nothing November 2015 to end March 2016. Everything starts after that. Every time she is in his care.Twice as a baby of 6 and 7 weeks old, as soon as she arrives at his house. 1st being burns from a radiator to a baby wrapped in a blanket and too young to move herself, 2nd being brain injuries. Nothing in foster care for 6 years, or at school. No tripping over. Every time it involves a black eye and head injury.

12. Tricking the jury with old videos -

Using videos from when Ellie was clearly still in care and being acclimatised to her parents. Her bob haircut grew out after her return. Without those there was an early video of both girls scootering on their patio, a Christmas video, both not long after their return and a sports day run and YD's birthday party. Neither of the two later ones show Ellie looking particularly happy. And JG lied about her experiences with Ellie in the snow and at the pub, when she wasn't even there. Why not use examples of good times where she was with Ellie, if there were any.


13. JG's head lump on her birthday, the same day BB found her diary - the two different excuses for this.


14. JG's diary disposal -


Inconsistent accounts to the jury. He said in EIC he threw it away on the day Ellie died. He said under cross-exam it had been thrown out weeks earlier, when he discovered it. She said she threw it away when he discovered it. Same bin he used when he got rid of rubbish on 28th Oct. No coincidence.

15. Not calling an ambulance -

JG knew Ellie was seriously injured when BB called her. She did not call an ambulance in the taxi. That is cruelty and neglect right there, even without a broken shoulder. She attempted resuscitation so had no reason to think it might not be too late, and an ambulance might still save her.

16. No one asks YD what happened -

The first thing you would do. You would be driven by a need to know how your child died. Lack of questions means no need to ask.

17. Lack of shock -

Walking of dog, smile, wave and chat with neighbours about weather is callous and calculated. Sending YD to wake up her dead sister is unimaginable.

18. Covering up for BB -

She has many reasons to suspect it was BB. She could turn him in, walk away and potentially keep YD. He has something on her. Even if that was just she didn't act to protect Ellie, she enabled it. Or is it that she was violent too? We know she split his jaw. Her drunkenness?
 
  • #488
And I've just realised believe it or not that my above post doesn't even consider whether Ellie's injuries were consistent with a short fall. One head impact or two, it wouldn't weigh in my deliberations. Even if they succeed in casting doubt on a second impact, I don't believe a mobile child would sustain that head injury from a short fall. There is a lot to be said from these statistics putting the odds of fatal injury beyond 1 in 1 million, based on how children land in falls, and use their body to take the brunt of the impact.

And then there is the gripping bruises on her jaw and inner arm.

And only one reported case of a skull fractured at the back of the head continuing along the central suture line and also splitting off on top of the head in another direction, that of a 6 wk old baby with a more fragile skull, whose head had fractured in the centre and to both sides, not just on one side. Obviously the baby would not have been able to stop its own fall.
 
  • #489
I have no doubt whatsoever of his guilt, or her guilt as a participating abuser.


1. No reason for discovering Ellie -

They've stitched themselves over with the cake excuse. It was served onto 4 plates in the kitchen. Clearly JG did this (if he did it there would have been 2 pieces, or 3) and it was her reason for sending YD to wake up Ellie. She said this in her police interview the day after, at a time when they hadn't had a chance to align their stories in detail. She stuck with that story until he changed his story when they went to trial in 2015.

If there was another reason for him discovering Ellie he would have given it and wouldn't have changed that part, as he knew it would cause problems for JG's story. He's forced her to admit perverting the course of justice by saying her account of finding Ellie was a lie.

2. JG's blood in the bathroom -

They've both woven JG's visit to the bathroom as soon as she came home, into their versions. I don't think it would have been an important part of his version, or a memory he would have - he can't remember other things because he was in shock - it is something they've agreed to align, not realising that it didn't need to be something he was aware of. By putting it in his version too he's made it a suspicious event. He's trying to account for her blood drops without knowing if she would have left any. They know they have to explain JG's blood drops in the bath. What they haven't explained is her trail leading to the bathroom from Ellie's room. If it was something innocuous such as JG getting a nose bleed in Ellie's room or even injuring herself, they would have just said that. So he injured her. And he must have gone into her room or the bathroom to get JG's towel to throw away. How did he know she had left a bloodied towel?


3. The September school absence -

This is not explained by JG not knowing the date term started. The school rang them both and left messages on both their phones, and emailed, yet they still did not send Ellie back until the following week. That would have been my question to her as a juror. This absence coincides with JG's search for head trauma, which she says was for BB.

4. Not taking Ellie to the hospital for concussion -

His excuse is 2007, her excuse is Ellie seemed fine. Neither are plausible. He would take Ellie to the GP in June when her injuries and symptoms were less serious. They had both done enough medical research to know that concussion was a serious event, especially in a child with life threatening brain injuries as a baby. She didn't even make an internet search then to see what the advice was, so they were hiding this event and she would put herself and him before getting medical treatment for Ellie. Wouldn't even tell the school to keep a special eye on her, when bruising was obvious so she had a reason to be concerned. School had to ask Ellie what happened so obviously neither parent had explained to the teacher.


5. Broken scapula -

Nothing explains why Ellie would not have been in pain or have restricted movement from a broken shoulder, meaning they must have been aware. She was kept off swimming either because of the bruises or because she couldn't rotate her arm fully, even after having been kept at home for 14 days. Getting a medical letter on 8th Oct because school is pressing, but still not sending Ellie back to school until 14th Oct. They've set up a cover story for this with family flu but JG was at work during this time and texting BB saying she was taking pills because she was so ill but had to work. It was their 'evidence' in case Social Services became involved again.

6. JG's list of Ellie's problems -

They are both massively embarrassed about this list. They know it shows that they had singled out Ellie for persecution.


7. Ellie wetting herself -

They are both at pains to say this was about YD. They know what this signifies in a child of Ellie's age - she has been fine for 6 years until she returned to their home.

8. BB's texts -

He hates JG and Ellie. Ellie is just like JG with her mouth. Take Ellie and don't come back. No mention of YD. Ellie obviously triggers his rage and violence and loss of control, just like JG.


9. JG's hospital admissions in a false name -

For this never ending pregnancy termination. There was no ectopic pregnancy, there would not have been uncertainty about that from a 16 week scan. There was no need for the false name, other than protecting BB because of DV injuries.

10. JG's background -

Missing from her evidence in chief. Starts from the date she met BB. He gave his childhood history, hers was passed over. If there was anything there to be proud about - good upbringing, respectability etc they would have laboured it to make a good impression with the jury.

11. Ellie's frequent injuries start after the Social Workers stop visiting -

Nothing for 6 years in care. Nothing November 2015 to end March 2016. Everything starts after that. Every time she is in his care.Twice as a baby of 6 and 7 weeks old, as soon as she arrives at his house. 1st being burns from a radiator to a baby wrapped in a blanket and too young to move herself, 2nd being brain injuries. Nothing in foster care for 6 years, or at school. No tripping over. Every time it involves a black eye and head injury.

12. Tricking the jury with old videos -

Using videos from when Ellie was clearly still in care and being acclimatised to her parents. Her bob haircut grew out after her return. Without those there was an early video of both girls scootering on their patio, a Christmas video, both not long after their return and a sports day run and YD's birthday party. Neither of the two later ones show Ellie looking particularly happy. And JG lied about her experiences with Ellie in the snow and at the pub, when she wasn't even there. Why not use examples of good times where she was with Ellie, if there were any.


13. JG's head lump on her birthday, the same day BB found her diary - the two different excuses for this.


14. JG's diary disposal -


Inconsistent accounts to the jury. He said in EIC he threw it away on the day Ellie died. He said under cross-exam it had been thrown out weeks earlier, when he discovered it. She said she threw it away when he discovered it. Same bin he used when he got rid of rubbish on 28th Oct. No coincidence.

15. Not calling an ambulance -

JG knew Ellie was seriously injured when BB called her. She did not call an ambulance in the taxi. That is cruelty and neglect right there, even without a broken shoulder. She attempted resuscitation so had no reason to think it might not be too late, and an ambulance might still save her.

16. No one asks YD what happened -

The first thing you would do. You would be driven by a need to know how your child died. Lack of questions means no need to ask.

17. Lack of shock -

Walking of dog, smile, wave and chat with neighbours about weather is callous and calculated. Sending YD to wake up her dead sister is unimaginable.

18. Covering up for BB -

She has many reasons to suspect it was BB. She could turn him in, walk away and potentially keep YD. He has something on her. Even if that was just she didn't act to protect Ellie, she enabled it. Or is it that she was violent too? We know she split his jaw. Her drunkenness?
Excellently put Tortoise. Now I've just had a fall. Literally an hour ago. I couldn't even stop myself as I was holding my fone at the time in my left hand and knowing I was in for a hard head bash against my oxygen machine. My right hand reached out to try n glance the blow. Which I managed but my left arm is all sore and carpet burnt my wrist n elbow sore to move as is my left hip knee n ankle. I haven't broken anything. Just sore. So if I can fall full height. I'm sure Ellie could to. Which makes me think. Her head trauma. Was by her, in any case unexpected. Or not expected at the magnitude it was.
Their whole story over the last 11 months especially is as full of holes as a tea bag.
And I'm surely hoping that if we can see all the inconsistencies as members of the public. Then I have faith in the Jury too.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
  • #490
Excellently put Tortoise. Now I've just had a fall. Literally an hour ago. I couldn't even stop myself as I was holding my fone at the time in my left hand and knowing I was in for a hard head bash against my oxygen machine. My right hand reached out to try n glance the blow. Which I managed but my left arm is all sore and carpet burnt my wrist n elbow sore to move as is my left hip knee n ankle. I haven't broken anything. Just sore. So if I can fall full height. I'm sure Ellie could to. Which makes me think. Her head trauma. Was by her, in any case unexpected. Or not expected at the magnitude it was.
Their whole story over the last 11 months especially is as full of holes as a tea bag.
And I'm surely hoping that if we can see all the inconsistencies as members of the public. Then I have faith in the Jury too.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Oh no, poor you. Glad nothing's broken, it sounds painful. You must stop testing the evidence in these cases Gigi! (sorry lame joke)

Hope you get well soon.
 
  • #491
Hope you're ok GG. Get well soon.
 
  • #492
OT...I'm still behind, trying to catch up, on post #387. Hi again everyone. As I said before, I'm in the States and I'm trying my best to understand the lingo...and most of it I am doing ok with....
I'm trying to envision your court system. There have been references to him in the "dock" and it has bulletproof glass. Is that where the defendants are at all times? Almost like a glass cage in the middle of the room? And someone said that he left for a bit.... Can they come and go as they please? Or did he just ask for a break?
Also, reference to they live on an estate...over here that would make me envision grandeur or at least a large home on a lot of land, but from the pictures it's what looks like apartments or row homes. Is an estate over there an apartment complex?
Might even call it a subdivision over here maybe??
And I often read fellow posters say I'm off to have a "cuppa". Is that a cup of tea?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Thanks Theirmomma, I wasn't brave enough to ask☺ I have one more question as far as the lingo goes, what does the word 'grassed' mean? Does that mean take off or leave?
 
  • #493
Thanks Theirmomma, I wasn't brave enough to ask☺ I have one more question as far as the lingo goes, what does the word 'grassed' mean? Does that mean take off or leave?

It's when you inform the authorities or report someone for a wrongdoing.
 
  • #494
Oh no, poor you. Glad nothing's broken, it sounds painful. You must stop testing the evidence in these cases Gigi! (sorry lame joke)

Hope you get well soon.
Lol. I managed to bypass the furbabies. What didn't help was coming in to a darkened room (blinds shut to keep animals cool) with black furbabies and a black trailing socket had fallen. Not sure how. But my foot caught that and an unsightly tangled mess I became. One being of an older age doesn't do well on hard floors. Lol.
Hubby was running to me altho it all went Pete tong seemingly slow motion . Hehehe can laugh now but owchie it hurts still. Ty. I hadn't been drinking then tho! (:

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
  • #495
Hope you're ok GG. Get well soon.
Thanks LB. And no I hadn't started on the alcohol yet then. Ha! Just in case you thought I might of knocked back a few.. I have now tho. (:
Have a great extended week end!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
  • #496
After my previous post pondering whether BB rang his friend that day to get him to come round in order to set him up so that he would be in the frame for harming Ellie, I was interested to find this article. Not sure if it's been covered already but at one point the judge asked BB whether the reason he called JG home from work and then went out with the dog etc. was so that he could say that JG had also been alone with Ellie that day, thus putting her in the frame too.

Father accused of Ellie Butler murder denies casting suspicion on partner

As he concluded his evidence, trial judge Mr Justice Wilkie raised a question which he said had been "troubling" him.


He said: "On October 28 you told us that you found your daughter lying on the floor and seemed pretty quickly to come to believe she could well be dead and in that time you were the sole adult in the house and had been for a number of hours.


"So it was pretty obvious if anyone might have suspicions about what happened to Ellie, you would be the focus of that suspicion.


"You told us that very quickly you contacted Jennie at work and you gave her to understand that she needed to come home as a matter of urgency although you did not say.


"And we know it was just more than an hour later that she arrived home and we know that from the photos of the taxi going through Sutton.


"You have told us that some time after you went out, you took the dog for a walk and you took some stuff to the bins and we know that must be right because we have heard evidence from some of your neighbours who saw you and one of them said you spoke to her and made some comment about the awful weather.


"And then, you have told us that when you got back (the other child in the house) was in the kitchen and it was pretty soon after that that (the child) went upstairs and said that Ellie was still sleeping and that prompted you then to call the ambulance, although you knew that you would have to call the ambulance at some point.


"That means, doesn't it, that Jennie was the sole adult in the house for quite a period of time leading up to the period before you rang the ambulance?"


Butler agreed but said he was not sure how long she was alone in the house.


Turning to the transcript of the 999 call, the senior judge said Butler was heard in the background to say "What happened, what happened, baby?" to Gray as she was asked for information by the operator.


Later on in the call, when asked what happened, Butler tells the woman he does not know and he only came upstairs to find she had "fallen down".


As the operator instructs Gray, Butler can again be heard to ask his partner: "What happened, tell me what happened?"


Posing his question, the judge said: "I just want your response to this: if it was suggested that the way the cover up seems to have operated indicates that it was your aim to transfer suspicion from yourself as the sole adult in the house, what would your response be to that suggestion?"


The defendant replied: "Absolutely not. I would not blame her for anything."
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/...r_murder_denies_casting_suspicion_on_partner/

Was BB in fact trying to create a situation where there were two people who could have killed Ellie and police would be unable to prove which one it was so neither could be prosecuted. I know I've read of previous cases where that has happened, the most recent I can find is this one

Sam, who was 19 months old at the time, was in the care of his mum Deanna Buffham, 28, and her new partner Ryan Bate, 23, when his injuries occurred. But neither will face charges as the CPS stated they blame one another.
Police suspect at least one of them was responsible for the attack, but they cannot be prosecuted on a ‘joint enterprise’ because detectives are not able to prove who the culprit was.

metro.co.uk/2015/06/26/one-of-two-people-killed-my-son-but-i-cant-get-justice-dads-court-battle-after-toddlers-death-5268041/#ixzz4A5IYcCZg

So was the plan to make his friend the only or "other suspect" but when that failed he had to call JG home from work instead ? Were the blood drips from BB hitting JG when she told him she didn;t want to do that?
 
  • #497
8. BB's texts -

He hates JG and Ellie. Ellie is just like JG with her mouth. Take Ellie and don't come back. No mention of YD. Ellie obviously triggers his rage and violence and loss of control, just like JG.


I hadn't realised that the text where he threatened to "maim" JG was related to Ellie. According to the Guardian he threatened to maim her if she bought Ellie home. I'm not sure if this was on one of the days you were in court but if it was did they expand on that at all? I can't work out if it means he didn't want Ellie back or didn't want JG back or didn't want either of them back but I'd be really interested to find out where she was bringing Ellie back from and if it was about Ellie, why BB didn't want her back... and did JG come back with Ellie anyway? Also whether the date of the text tied in with the dates of any of Ellie's injuries or her absences from school or google searches.

The jury was told that in the texts Butler calls his partner “a dog 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬” and a “fat dog” and warns her if she comes home with Ellie “I’ll main u *****”.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-video-with-dark-mark-around-eye-during-trial
 
  • #498
I hadn't realised that the text where he threatened to "maim" JG was related to Ellie. According to the Guardian he threatened to maim her if she bought Ellie home. I'm not sure if this was on one of the days you were in court but if it was did they expand on that at all? I can't work out if it means he didn't want Ellie back or didn't want JG back or didn't want either of them back but I'd be really interested to find out where she was bringing Ellie back from and if it was about Ellie, why BB didn't want her back... and did JG come back with Ellie anyway? Also whether the date of the text tied in with the dates of any of Ellie's injuries or her absences from school or google searches.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-video-with-dark-mark-around-eye-during-trial
I think it's posted back on this thread some by Tortoise.
But the threat to maim. Was I'm pretty certain JG.

He actually claims he doesn't want to 'be' with JG. He doesn't want the 'family unit' he be there for the kids. So he says but. Not marriage. Even to she's called him 'husband' numerous times.
They 'stay' together if you want to call it that. Because it's an arrangement. She works has a house he has free room n board and child minds. If you can call it that. He openly states he didn't want kids. If you read more of his texts he says about it. One reason she went to have abortion. Even though it was late in the term. 16 weeks. And she said it was a boy. She thought he'd change his mind if she were to have a boy.
But no I just think he wasn't really interested. She just wanted marriage n 2.4 children. She has an unhealthy attachment disorder over him.
She will put everything even herself. Before him. To me. Rather borderline Stockholm Syndrome. From a profiler point of view.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
  • #499
I think it's posted back on this thread some by Tortoise.
But the threat to maim. Was I'm pretty certain JG.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Thanks Gigi, I'd seen the "maim" part of the threat to JG before but not seen the bit where he was going to do it only if she came back with Ellie.
 
  • #500
Thanks Gigi, I'd seen the "maim" part of the threat to JG before but not seen the bit where he was going to do it only if she came back with Ellie.
The only reason they fought so hard to get Ellie back. Was to get his sentencing quashed.
He appealed. After doing extensive medical research on skull and head/brain injuries. After stating that the initial hospital that Ellie was taken too were inadequate. And made many mistakes over her treatment as well as her diagnosis And prognosis. Ellie was taken to another hospital and was treated and had been given every chance of a satisfactory outcome.

He represented himself. And the evidence spoke for itself. (For the time being)

Anyways. He got his reprieve. After
11 months Ellie was released into THEIR care. She's dead........ hmmm

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
71
Guests online
1,789
Total visitors
1,860

Forum statistics

Threads
632,532
Messages
18,628,012
Members
243,185
Latest member
TheMultiLucy☮️
Back
Top