GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

It was a travesty waiting to happen. It never should of.

Later people am in pain. swollen bits hurt... have fun . Much love x

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[jog]

I hadn't realised that the text where he threatened to "maim" JG was related to Ellie. According to the Guardian he threatened to maim her if she bought Ellie home. I'm not sure if this was on one of the days you were in court but if it was did they expand on that at all? I can't work out if it means he didn't want Ellie back or didn't want JG back or didn't want either of them back but I'd be really interested to find out where she was bringing Ellie back from and if it was about Ellie, why BB didn't want her back... and did JG come back with Ellie anyway? Also whether the date of the text tied in with the dates of any of Ellie's injuries or her absences from school or google searches.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-video-with-dark-mark-around-eye-during-trial

He has said quite categorically on evidence he hated JG at that time. Therefore the fact he.seems to feel Ellie is a mini version of JG in my view is why he when JG wasn't there he took it out on Ellie. In his warped view in 2007 he did nothing wrong, although we all agree to differ , so on his view his life he hates is all down to JG and Ellie. They are a reminder of how he was wronged and went to prison. That's why younger daughter escapes his wrath as well as other reasons ir she wasn't old enough to challenge etc. But it is clear from the evidence he viewed JG and Ellie in the same light! If JG searches are to be believed in October 2009 he hates the younger daughter who was born in sept 2009. She may have escaped as Ellie was more of a challenge at 6 years old and the little one couldn't do that ! I can't get still why Ellie didn't tell the grandparents what was happening I hear she saw them the day before she died had she said something to provoke BB Who knows. The fact they have t been called for either the pros or the defence is interesting g In itself. If the jury had heard from them that Ellie had never fallen over etc in my view would have been key evidence or if they Had said they could not get access to Ellie on the later months etc I think that could be a mistake from the prosecutor on not making them give evidence as hard as it is. That would have been the killer blow and would really have helped the jury if they need any more convincing !

 

[Tillymint]

I wonder if she ever said that she would prefer to go back to living with her grandparents? He would've hit the roof with that, I think.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I have no doubt whatsoever of his guilt, or her guilt as a participating abuser.


1. No reason for discovering Ellie -

They've stitched themselves over with the cake excuse. It was served onto 4 plates in the kitchen. Clearly JG did this (if he did it there would have been 2 pieces, or 3) and it was her reason for sending YD to wake up Ellie. She said this in her police interview the day after, at a time when they hadn't had a chance to align their stories in detail. She stuck with that story until he changed his story when they went to trial in 2015.

If there was another reason for him discovering Ellie he would have given it and wouldn't have changed that part, as he knew it would cause problems for JG's story. He's forced her to admit perverting the course of justice by saying her account of finding Ellie was a lie.

2. JG's blood in the bathroom -

They've both woven JG's visit to the bathroom as soon as she came home, into their versions. I don't think it would have been an important part of his version, or a memory he would have - he can't remember other things because he was in shock - it is something they've agreed to align, not realising that it didn't need to be something he was aware of. By putting it in his version too he's made it a suspicious event. He's trying to account for her blood drops without knowing if she would have left any. They know they have to explain JG's blood drops in the bath. What they haven't explained is her trail leading to the bathroom from Ellie's room. If it was something innocuous such as JG getting a nose bleed in Ellie's room or even injuring herself, they would have just said that. So he injured her. And he must have gone into her room or the bathroom to get JG's towel to throw away. How did he know she had left a bloodied towel?


3. The September school absence -

This is not explained by JG not knowing the date term started. The school rang them both and left messages on both their phones, and emailed, yet they still did not send Ellie back until the following week. That would have been my question to her as a juror. This absence coincides with JG's search for head trauma, which she says was for BB.

4. Not taking Ellie to the hospital for concussion -

His excuse is 2007, her excuse is Ellie seemed fine. Neither are plausible. He would take Ellie to the GP in June when her injuries and symptoms were less serious. They had both done enough medical research to know that concussion was a serious event, especially in a child with life threatening brain injuries as a baby. She didn't even make an internet search then to see what the advice was, so they were hiding this event and she would put herself and him before getting medical treatment for Ellie. Wouldn't even tell the school to keep a special eye on her, when bruising was obvious so she had a reason to be concerned. School had to ask Ellie what happened so obviously neither parent had explained to the teacher.


5. Broken scapula -

Nothing explains why Ellie would not have been in pain or have restricted movement from a broken shoulder, meaning they must have been aware. She was kept off swimming either because of the bruises or because she couldn't rotate her arm fully, even after having been kept at home for 14 days. Getting a medical letter on 8th Oct because school is pressing, but still not sending Ellie back to school until 14th Oct. They've set up a cover story for this with family flu but JG was at work during this time and texting BB saying she was taking pills because she was so ill but had to work. It was their 'evidence' in case Social Services became involved again.

6. JG's list of Ellie's problems -

They are both massively embarrassed about this list. They know it shows that they had singled out Ellie for persecution.


7. Ellie wetting herself -

They are both at pains to say this was about YD. They know what this signifies in a child of Ellie's age - she has been fine for 6 years until she returned to their home.

8. BB's texts -

He hates JG and Ellie. Ellie is just like JG with her mouth. Take Ellie and don't come back. No mention of YD. Ellie obviously triggers his rage and violence and loss of control, just like JG.


9. JG's hospital admissions in a false name -

For this never ending pregnancy termination. There was no ectopic pregnancy, there would not have been uncertainty about that from a 16 week scan. There was no need for the false name, other than protecting BB because of DV injuries.

10. JG's background -

Missing from her evidence in chief. Starts from the date she met BB. He gave his childhood history, hers was passed over. If there was anything there to be proud about - good upbringing, respectability etc they would have laboured it to make a good impression with the jury.

11. Ellie's frequent injuries start after the Social Workers stop visiting -

Nothing for 6 years in care. Nothing November 2015 to end March 2016. Everything starts after that. Every time she is in his care.Twice as a baby of 6 and 7 weeks old, as soon as she arrives at his house. 1st being burns from a radiator to a baby wrapped in a blanket and too young to move herself, 2nd being brain injuries. Nothing in foster care for 6 years, or at school. No tripping over. Every time it involves a black eye and head injury.

12. Tricking the jury with old videos -

Using videos from when Ellie was clearly still in care and being acclimatised to her parents. Her bob haircut grew out after her return. Without those there was an early video of both girls scootering on their patio, a Christmas video, both not long after their return and a sports day run and YD's birthday party. Neither of the two later ones show Ellie looking particularly happy. And JG lied about her experiences with Ellie in the snow and at the pub, when she wasn't even there. Why not use examples of good times where she was with Ellie, if there were any.


13. JG's head lump on her birthday, the same day BB found her diary - the two different excuses for this.


14. JG's diary disposal -

Inconsistent accounts to the jury. He said in EIC he threw it away on the day Ellie died. He said under cross-exam it had been thrown out weeks earlier, when he discovered it. She said she threw it away when he discovered it. Same bin he used when he got rid of rubbish on 28th Oct. No coincidence.

15. Not calling an ambulance -

JG knew Ellie was seriously injured when BB called her. She did not call an ambulance in the taxi. That is cruelty and neglect right there, even without a broken shoulder. She attempted resuscitation so had no reason to think it might not be too late, and an ambulance might still save her.

16. No one asks YD what happened -

The first thing you would do. You would be driven by a need to know how your child died. Lack of questions means no need to ask.

17. Lack of shock -

Walking of dog, smile, wave and chat with neighbours about weather is callous and calculated. Sending YD to wake up her dead sister is unimaginable.

18. Covering up for BB -

She has many reasons to suspect it was BB. She could turn him in, walk away and potentially keep YD. He has something on her. Even if that was just she didn't act to protect Ellie, she enabled it. Or is it that she was violent too? We know she split his jaw. Her drunkenness?

Thank you tortoise. This really brings it home what kind of monsters this pair are, it breaks my heart. :cry:

 

[Tortoise]

I hadn't realised that the text where he threatened to "maim" JG was related to Ellie. According to the Guardian he threatened to maim her if she bought Ellie home. I'm not sure if this was on one of the days you were in court but if it was did they expand on that at all? I can't work out if it means he didn't want Ellie back or didn't want JG back or didn't want either of them back but I'd be really interested to find out where she was bringing Ellie back from and if it was about Ellie, why BB didn't want her back... and did JG come back with Ellie anyway? Also whether the date of the text tied in with the dates of any of Ellie's injuries or her absences from school or google searches.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-video-with-dark-mark-around-eye-during-trial

If they've mentioned the date of this text I have forgotten, because I haven't been writing anything down in court.

What prosecution did, when they selected texts to ask JG about, it seems to me, is ask her about different texts to the ones they asked BB about. I think the prosecutors (Brown and FitzGerald) had a plan to not ask questions where the other defendant had already given an answer, because they had both been in court to hear each other's evidence and they were aligning their answers in court. That became very obvious.

But what JG did was deflect from the questions. BB did it too. Went off on a tangent and not answer the question. So many times, virtually all the way through those days of evidence, and pros. would wait until they had finished their speeches and then point out that they had not answered and repeat the question. If they tried to stop them from straying off topic midway they would both say 'I haven't finished yet'. So arrogant. So in relation to this text JG addressed the jury and said 'look at my face, do I look like I've been maimed?' She wouldn't answer things like what was happening at the time the text was sent, and why he included Ellie.

 

[Tortoise]

He has said quite categorically on evidence he hated JG at that time. Therefore the fact he.seems to feel Ellie is a mini version of JG in my view is why he when JG wasn't there he took it out on Ellie. In his warped view in 2007 he did nothing wrong, although we all agree to differ , so on his view his life he hates is all down to JG and Ellie. They are a reminder of how he was wronged and went to prison. That's why younger daughter escapes his wrath as well as other reasons ir she wasn't old enough to challenge etc. But it is clear from the evidence he viewed JG and Ellie in the same light! If JG searches are to be believed in October 2009 he hates the younger daughter who was born in sept 2009. She may have escaped as Ellie was more of a challenge at 6 years old and the little one couldn't do that ! I can't get still why Ellie didn't tell the grandparents what was happening I hear she saw them the day before she died had she said something to provoke BB Who knows. The fact they have t been called for either the pros or the defence is interesting g In itself. If the jury had heard from them that Ellie had never fallen over etc in my view would have been key evidence or if they Had said they could not get access to Ellie on the later months etc I think that could be a mistake from the prosecutor on not making them give evidence as hard as it is. That would have been the killer blow and would really have helped the jury if they need any more convincing !

I have felt similarly confused jog, about the grandparents not being called. But if I work through it from different angles, I can see various reasons why they might not have been useful.

1. They wouldn't be useful witnesses for the violence or murder. I can see that JG and BB would have gone to extraordinary lengths to hide this. Making sure any contact was when injuries had healed etc.

2. For Ellie to lie to the school about what caused her injuries, she must have been threatened with unimaginable things that would follow. I don't think we can underestimate this pair, all the way through that year we have examples of their lies and subterfuge. It was their way of life. False names, different excuses for injuries, lies about term dates, they can't even get their own stories to align in many places. He in particular seems to have become confused about her evidence and has a couple of times said the wrong thing for her (photographs of snow, ectopic pregnancy, false names etc) and then changed his evidence the following day after speaking to her. So, I think they were very well practiced even before Ellie died and going on trial, at putting cover stories in place. I think they were preparing for intervention from Social Services again, hence his panic and outrage over finding her diary and how dangerous it was. The school was beginning to get wise to the truth. Back to the point about Ellie not telling anyone about her injuries - I think we can see how the parents would have ensured she would not talk, to anyone. Never leave her alone with grandparents. I think she would have been too scared to say in front of mum.

3. The meeting in McDonalds the day before Ellie died. BB is not there, that is a red flag. Not invited to come to their home, a contained visit - you can't sit in McD's for long.

4. The absence of medical records of injuries in the 6 years in grandparent's care speaks as loud as their testimony would. Defence would have brought these if there were any.

5. He has a previous conviction for witness intimidation. And unconnected - I've also read about threats made by BB and JG to the grandparents before the family court proceedings in 2012. Don't know what these threats were but I can imagine it was violence.

6. It must be very difficult to testify against your own daughter, even if you think she is guilty. Maybe they don't have knowledge of her culpability in any case, to testify against her, so it wouldn't help the prosecution. If they had concerns surely they would have intervened before Ellie died. Perhaps it was building up to that and this is why BB kicked off that night/next morning against Ellie. Ellie might have said something completely innocent in front of grandparents but not revealing of her situation at home, like 'mummy can I go and sleep over at Grandma's during half term', and then 'but please, or why not?' if she said no. They might have complained to JG without realising the implications of that, not being aware of background pressure building at school/SS, that they were being denied as much access as they wanted without a good reason.



JG has demonstrated so much hatred for her parents (in court) that she can't even bring herself to call them her parents. Now I am confused by that - she met them the day before Ellie died. They must have ostracized her since then. Or, did she have that much hatred for them already, even on the day she met them in McD's. I remember BB saying I told JG to not go hard on them, or wtte. Trouble was brewing with her parents, I feel sure. But perhaps it's not useful, they might have come across as biased against the pair. But if there was trouble in 2013, I wouldn't put it past JG to have told Ellie she couldn't see them because they were wicked, evil people.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm very interested in the time they went to trial last year.

He sacked his legal team, and changed his defence to admit the 999 call was a charade. Causing JG to change her defence and admit to perverting the course of justice, the next day.

He has said a couple of times in court, I could have hidden behind the 999 call. I didn't have to admit it, I decided to hold my hands up. He's also said a few times, the prosecution have got the charges wrong. He wasn't aware of Ellie's broken scapula but if they had charged him with the same offence, and causing Ellie's death, by being negligent and not getting medical treatment for the concussion, he would have pleaded guilty. This is all part of his strategy, to get the jury on his side.

I think he realised when he went to trial in 2015, that there was too much evidence that the 999 call was a hoax. Even though JG was backing him and saying Ellie fell after she got home. I've read on my travels around the web that the ambulance crew found Ellie cold and blue, with no heart beat. So I think he thought, if the jury disbelieved the 999 story, they would find him untruthful and more likely to be guilty of murder. So this is his trick, to admit failings, in the hope they will think he is now being honest.

When FitzGerald put it to JG that they had conspired to match their false versions, and she had changed her defence the day after he did, in 2015, she said "you mean when he had his breakdown".

IMO that was another deflection. She has to throw in another medical reason for them acting that way, having to lie, because of stress, because of their wrongful conviction. They were forced to cover up their cover up, because they were being victimised by police. Nothing to do with the evidence being strong and their chances in front of a jury.

 

[Tortoise]

Trying to build up a picture of what was going down in the two weeks leading up to Ellie's death, when parents seem to be alert to possibility school is getting concerned.

Mon 14th Oct - Ellie returns to school having been absent since 1st Oct, with injuries. No sick note.
Thurs 17th Oct - JG's birthday. BB discovers her diary. She gets a lump on her head.
Fri 18th Oct - tells work she fell down some steps after having wine night before. Tells court she threw away the diary on way to bus stop.
School week of 21st - 25th Oct - BB's argument in corridor with headmaster about sick note, BB confrontational aggressive, is asked to leave. JG's urgent email to school about their victimisation.
Thurs 24th Oct, a school day - BB takes Ellie to the GP about ear-pinning. Is this just so GP can say he saw Ellie with no noted concerns about her appearance?
Fri 25th Oct, a school day - JG stays at home, Ellie is at school. Tells work that BB is away visiting his sick father. Tells court that she was sick, hence still slightly sick on Monday, when she texted her boss, saying she left work due to sickness. Why does she need to stay at home? I think he has walked out and left JG to do the school run.
Sun 27th Oct - meet grandparents in McDonalds. Probably means Ellie has no signs of injuries.
Mon 28th Oct - half-term. tells work BB still away and Ellie is being looked after by godfather.

I think BB, after his outburst at school, is going into melt down. Maybe he's walked out and said I'm not sticking around for this - we're going to be investigated again. To JG you can look after the children. He knows that if Ellie is given a proper health check, x-rays whatever, her broken shoulder will be discovered. Perhaps he goes to stay at Ian's, in a bid to distance himself. But it's not going to work retrospectively, the broken shoulder has already happened. But along come the grandparents, perhaps insisting on a visit. JG has mentioned their access in her email to the school - were they getting suspicious and poking around. Perhaps they would phone the school and ask if they had any concerns to add to their own - maybe JG's told them you cannot divulge information to my parents.

After the McD's visit, BB is anxious to know how it went. With his anxiety, violence is just under the surface.

I cannot think how he can not be aware that he won't get away with another assault on Ellie. They've used up all the tripping over excuses. If he is that worried about what is going to happen, why doesn't he just stay away? There is loss of control but he knew that was signing his own conviction if he did it one more time, Ellie survived it and was medically examined and questioned by trained Social Workers.

I'm coming back again to this being a deliberate murder. I just think he would know these injuries would be fatal. It's hard to comprehend, but maybe the first knock happened and if she was lying on the floor unconscious, maybe he shook her head violently against the floor, to smash it at the back, causing the two spinal injuries. He's picked her head up leaving the grip marks under the jawline, and hit her head forcefully back down again. Sorry for the gruesomeness.

Just remembering JG's text to BB - "you nutted me like a bloke."

 

[Nellie Nelson]

Sun 27th Oct - meet grandparents in McDonalds. Probably means Ellie has no signs of injuries.

BBM

Was the trip to McDonalds/meeting the grandparents there something that was brought up in Court?

I can't find any mention of it in on line reporting.

That does not surprise me in itself but I am wondering where it came from and whether it has been corroborated by anyone else? Given Gray and Butler both being consummate liars I am reluctant to take their word/s for anything re Ellie's last days.

 

[Tortoise]

BBM

Was the trip to McDonalds/meeting the grandparents there something that was brought up in Court?

I can't find any mention of it in on line reporting.

That does not surprise me in itself but I am wondering where it came from and whether it has been corroborated by anyone else? Given Gray and Butler both being consummate liars I am reluctant to take their word/s for anything re Ellie's last days.

I have the same reluctance as you Nellie, to believe anything they say. But I think I noticed this was corroborated, I think, 99% certain, there was a text on JG's phone to BB saying they were in McD's. I don't think it mentioned the grandparents but it backed up their location.

 

[Tillymint]

Tortoise,your posts have been amazing throughout this case, thank you so much. It really helps to see the broader picture for those of us who haven't been to court.

 

[Nellie Nelson]

I have the same reluctance as you Nellie, to believe anything they say. But I think I noticed this was corroborated, I think, 99% certain, there was a text on JG's phone to BB saying they were in McD's. I don't think it mentioned the grandparents but it backed up their location.

Like others I find it very interesting that Ellie's maternal GPs were not called to give evidence either for the prosecution or defence. It seems amazing to me that aside from her parents [liars both] and sister [too young to testify] the last people who knew Ellie well to see her alive [if they saw her that Sunday] have not given evidence. The only reported quote from them I have found was a very short 'reaction' quote made by the maternal grandfather shortly after Ellie's death in this article.

http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2480056/Father-arrested-connection-death-daughter-collapsed-home-died-paramedics-battled-save-her.html

Maybe this is some confusion on my part and it was paternal GPS who were at McDonalds that day? I would love to know where the info about the GPs being there at McDonalds originated, [and which 'set' of GPs it was], if anyone knows.

Just want to add my thanks again for the Court reporting on this case you do, Tortoise. It really does add so much depth about what actually transpires in Court compared to what the media choose to focus on.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks Tillymint.

It might seem that I haven't contemplated the other possibility, that this was an accident. I have. But I am sure enough to send him to the gallows.

There was no truth in his account of finding Ellie. That is why he couldn't describe it. It had no semblance of real life. I could tell from his telling of it that he was not recounting a memory. He is a good talker - his rants and speeches filled hours of court time, but here he dried up. It was the same with the 6 week old baby injury, although with that I got the feeling it had been well rehearsed and recounted many times before. But one moment did not lead naturally into another, if you were imagining yourself being there with him.

I don't know if there was a reason why, but when he thought the ambulance was taking too long he called his friend Ian to drive Ellie to the hospital. He didn't call JG until they were at the hospital. Now JG said she lived 5 minutes away by car, and she had driven Ellie over to his flat. Wouldn't you think he would have called JG to drive them to the hospital, or even if she had gone out, called her to let her know the emergency and meet them at the hospital? Ellie wasn't responsive and could have died at any moment. So even that part seems strange to me. It seems he didn't want to tell her, but instinct takes over and tells you the mum has to be told when her baby is in that situation.

Anyway the day Ellie died. His account was not natural. He quickly opened Ellie's bedroom door, don't know why he did it quickly, he's telling it as if he knows there will be a problem, he describes the scene that he saw as everything else first and Ellie last. The YD, where she was sitting and what she was doing, the open wardrobe doors, and then he saw Ellie laying with her feet facing the wardrobe. If I walked into a room, I think I would notice what wasn't right first, the child laying still where she shouldn't be. That is the most obvious focal point - the unexpected. I don't think you take in rooms like a camera panning around - your eye is immediately drawn to a very unusual sight. And then he went over, looked at Ellie, shook her, decided she was dead, removed YD and left the room, closing the door. Not going back in the room until JG came home.

It is not true. No human does that. She may have just been unconscious, how does he know she's dead? He's not described how he checked that or concluded that. He's not described talking to Ellie, saying anything to YD, what were you doing in here, how did Ellie hurt herself, why didn't you come and get Daddy to help Ellie, most important he hasn't said why he didn't get an ambulance straight away. There is no reason on earth to not call an ambulance to see if life saving treatment can be given, even if you think you will be blamed. That does not stand in the way of human instinct to try to save a life. He could not account for having done nothing to help her. He could not answer the questions. He is not human, not a father, he has no love in him. I don't think anyone accepts a death has occurred in that short time-frame, of a couple of minutes. If the person is dear to you, I think you would have unrealistic hopes it wasn't true and something could be done, even if you feared the worst. He seems to have drawn on a psychic ability to determine it had to have occurred a long time before he opened the door, so it was too late to do anything. There is no reason for that assumption.

 

[Tortoise]

Like others I find it very interesting that Ellie's maternal GPs were not called to give evidence either for the prosecution or defence. It seems amazing to me that aside from her parents [liars both] and sister [too young to testify] the last people who knew Ellie well to see her alive [if they saw her that Sunday] have not given evidence. The only reported quote from them I have found was a very short 'reaction' quote made by the maternal grandfather shortly after Ellie's death in this article.

http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/n...ed-home-died-paramedics-battled-save-her.html

Maybe this is some confusion on my part and it was paternal GPS who were at McDonalds that day? I would love to know where the info about the GPs being there at McDonalds originated, [and which 'set' of GPs it was], if anyone knows.

Just want to add my thanks again for the Court reporting on this case you do, Tortoise. It really does add so much depth about what actually transpires in Court compared to what the media choose to focus on.

Thanks Nellie. It was definitely the maternal grandparents because BB told JG to go easy on them, and it was quite a focus of the trial - how she had such a bad relationship with her father.

 

[Nellie Nelson]

Anyway the day Ellie died. His account was not natural. He quickly opened Ellie's bedroom door, don't know why he did it quickly, he's telling it as if he knows there will be a problem, he describes the scene that he saw as everything else first and Ellie last. The YD, where she was sitting and what she was doing, the open wardrobe doors, and then he saw Ellie laying with her feet facing the wardrobe. If I walked into a room, I think I would notice what wasn't right first, the child laying still where she shouldn't be. That is the most obvious focal point - the unexpected. I don't think you take in rooms like a camera panning around - your eye is immediately drawn to a very unusual sight. And then he went over, looked at Ellie, shook her, decided she was dead, removed YD and left the room, closing the door. Not going back in the room until JG came home.

It is not true. No human does that. She may have just been unconscious, how does he know she's dead? He's not described how he checked that or concluded that. He's not described talking to Ellie, saying anything to YD, what were you doing in here, how did Ellie hurt herself, why didn't you come and get Daddy to help Ellie, most important he hasn't said why he didn't get an ambulance straight away. There is no reason on earth to not call an ambulance to see if life saving treatment can be given, even if you think you will be blamed. That does not stand in the way of human instinct to try to save a life. He could not account for having done nothing to help her. He could not answer the questions. He is not human, not a father, he has no love in him. I don't think anyone accepts a death has occurred in that short time-frame, of a couple of minutes. If the person is dear to you, I think you would have unrealistic hopes it wasn't true and something could be done, even if you feared the worst. He seems to have drawn on a psychic ability to determine it had to have occurred a long time before he opened the door, so it was too late to do anything. There is no reason for that assumption.

His account lacks verisimilitude.

There is no real right or wrong way to recount witnessing even an expected death let alone the discovery that someone is suddenly and shockingly dead or seriously injured, but somehow we normals know a truthful account when we hear it, and can recognise an untruthful account equally well.

Like you I was prepared to consider that somehow this child had had an improbable accident, but none of the evidence supports that and his account - or rather, story - just doesn't hang together.

Chances are neither of them will ever admit what they know to be the truth. He can't admit it because he is the great Ben Butler who just made a small error in thinking he could beat the **** out of his own kid and get away with it. She won't admit it because she is in his thrall and nothing else matters to her. Hopefully the Jury will see through them and they'll both go to prison, regardless.

 

[Tortoise]

His account lacks verisimilitude.

There is no real right or wrong way to recount witnessing even an expected death let alone the discovery that someone is suddenly and shockingly dead or seriously injured, but somehow we normals know a truthful account when we hear it, and can recognise an untruthful account equally well.

Like you I was prepared to consider that somehow this child had had an improbable accident, but none of the evidence supports that and his account - or rather, story - just doesn't hang together.

Chances are neither of them will ever admit what they know to be the truth. He can't admit it because he is the great Ben Butler who just made a small error in thinking he could beat the **** out of his own kid and get away with it. She won't admit it because she is in his thrall and nothing else matters to her. Hopefully the Jury will see through them and they'll both go to prison, regardless.

I've learnt a new word!

I have met quite a lot of people in the public gallery - and no one who believes them. They are already discussing what sentences they will get.

 

[cottonweaver]

thanks for all these fantastic posts ,I am just catching up.

Tortoise, I wonder if any of those regular attenders (public gallery) will join WS to discuss the sentencing when the hearing is finished? I know you will go to the summing up day, having gone this far to date, so invite them on the last day. Be great to get their reminiscences too.


PS also looking forward to hearing the poster ( Sally?) who likely knew JG in her girlhood when this is all over.
ETA Particularly as I have just read the excellent point about JG's past & childhood upbringing. It had never crossed my mind before - strategic for glossing over that. Obviously I always assumed her teen years would have likely been chaotic but actually I had never noticed Defence had glossed over her entire past Also I had just assumed that JG would have had a good upbringing with her own parents etc .

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm liking this analysis of his account of the discovery of E's body. I know you have said this before, as soon as you heard it Tortoise. I think your "camera panning around the scene" is very appropriate for his scene setting.

We know he's very canny yet as you & Nellie just said, it just doesn't have any "ring of truth" to it.
So it's ironic that cunning BB he got this part very wrong......
but that's what happens when you believe your own hype , or you indeed you have someone like JG saying "Yes that sounds great Ben." wtte!
( It's rather like his weak jokes - he can't hit the right note but I 'm sure she tells him he is hilarious!)

PS Re-reading your account of his discovery story again it's striking that despite his shock/irrational frozen moment before closing the door on E, in this fake script he has to fit in getting YD out as he had inserted her into the script .
They really wanted YD in their stories, their new and old versions, I can just imagine him thinking , "oh dear, I need to get YD back out of the room , where in the sequence will it be best to do it?" or wtte.
If YD had been older than 3 yrs old and her testimony was useable, she would have been nowhere in this story. ( Back in the very early stages of trial I mistakenly thought she was older than 3 and thought she could be a witness of some type, clearly not at such a tender age.)

 

[jog]

Thanks Nellie. It was definitely the maternal grandparents because BB told JG to go easy on them, and it was quite a focus of the trial - how she had such a bad relationship with her father.

What was the issue then with her father. ?From what I have heard when she got pregnant with Ellie she livedwith them and then. Moved out. The grandparents however took Ellie on. They couldn't have done this without JG putting them forward and they would have been checked out thoroughly by social services the implication being they had no history that would cause an issue ie convictions etc I would have thought that any issues with bringing up their children would have also been explored. But JG seems to say her and her father did t get along at all. Is this another lie or did she lie to social services about her relationship with her dad to ensure that Ellie went to them Rather than be adopted? Maybe for her it was the lesser of 2 evils ? I don't know. I wonder if her parents are quite old fashioned as BB made a comment that Ellie hadn't even bee. To McDonald's or the cinema like it was a criticism. I just wonder if the whole issue with her and her dad has been Exaggerated by her and him because the grandparents would nt give Ellie back easily in 2012 and also didn't like BB or trust his supposed innocence. I would imagine this has got worse since 2013 therefore JG as she does has fixated on them Hating them for not supporting and believing BB.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, I agree I think this issue of a conflict between Grandpa & JG has been over emphasised for effect. Claiming this helped JG & BB in many ways and cover up the real reasons for the friction between the four individuals since 2007.

If JG & BB are liars, deflectors and blame - merchants, and we know they are, grandpa is the perfect target but the true sources of the conflict & resentment are conveniently obscured.