GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

This has been lingering on my mind and I am hoping someone can help. In this article I am quoting below, the judge speaks to BB. Is that normal in the UK for the judge to speak directly to the defendant and ask questions, outside of state your name and how do you plead, etc? Wouldn't this mainly be the prosocuters job? This is a trial by jury, correct? I'm just confussed. Don't get me wrong, I am happy he did. Just curious...

from http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36334937
He told the court he then went out to walk the dog. Neighbours have confirmed they spoke to him.
"That means, doesn't it, that Jennie was the sole adult in the house for quite a period of time leading up to the period before you rang the ambulance?" asked Mr Justice Wilkie.
Mr Butler agreed but said he was unsure how long Ms Gray was there.
Shortly after getting back, he rang for an ambulance. A transcript of his conversation with the 999 operator showed Mr Butler was heard to say "What happened, what happened, baby?" to Ms Gray.
He subsequently tells the operator he does not know what happened and had gone upstairs to find Ellie had "fallen down".
Mr Justice Wilkie asked Mr Butler how he would respond to the suggestion there was a "cover up" and he had sought to "transfer suspicion" from himself.
Mr Butler replied: "Absolutely not. I would not blame [Ms Gray] for anything."

Yes, it's normal for the judge to ask questions of any witnesses if there is ground that hasn't been covered.

When I did jury service, if I had a question for the witness I would write it down, the usher would pass it to the judge and he read it to the witness, or passed it to counsel for them to answer if the witness had finished. Sometimes questions don't occur to you until you've thought it over afterwards, and by that time the witness is not on the stand.

 

[Tortoise]

UL Good idea.

BIB Am sure that is true and altho IDWant to belabour this type of thing on here as I do think the gps are victims, I've always thought it may have been them that notified SS, as their duty, re preg 2 (YD)

We hear an awful lot in the news about struggling parents of adult children with MH difficulties, desperate to get MH support for their kids, so if JG's parents had suspicions, fear, but few facts, they did the right thing by notifying SS on her IMO . ( Her Brighton flit followed this. ) There was another event where she said a snooper "grassed them up" but IDRemember the background right now.

I think it may have been her benefit fraud, claiming benefit while working.

 

[cottonweaver]

Something else I've just remembered about JG and her father.

She was explaining that she had to give a false name when she checked into hospitals because her father had contacted the authorities and asked them to divulge information about her medical treatment. She says they had told her father about her 2011 abortion. She said he had no right to her personal information and that's why she used false names. It is BS btw (not the bit about her father getting her records but her reason - she was covering up the pregnancy from SS, then later she was covering up DV)

She said when her father found out about her abortion in 2011 he said (she uses a very la-di-da accent) wtte 'Oh, so that's another grandchild we've lost then'.

I'm sure he didn't say that, she's invented this. He would probably have been pleased she had done the best thing, and I don't think he would feel an aborted fetus was a grandchild. It doesn't ring true.

BIB Oh my. I can hear that resentment. Those poor parents......if it's true.

Let's imagine that they found out but through another conduit as IDBelieve that any hosp would give away a termination even to a father. What do you think?
IDK enough about the legal side of things to know if her Dad is able to get any of her medical records at all , even if she has MH, even if she is at risk due to DV, even if he was in discussion with SS.
We know in Jan 2013 the SS found out she had been in hospital but I just guessed that was a direct channel between NHS & SS. Then it feeds back down to her Dad , possibly from SS?

Sorry to all, for my waffle, I am catching up .

 

[ColourPurple]

. I rather tend to prefer the explanation that she wanted a baby, because it was a new childlike drama in her life, and something that she could use to get love for herself. Either love from the baby or from BB.

I don't think she wanted a baby , I think she wanted BB and saw having his baby as a way of achieving that. Each time she's had to chose between her child/children or BB she's chosen him. If she just wanted a baby and not him then when Ellie nearly died at 7weeks , here was her chance to walk away and keep her baby... instead she chose him and gave up her baby. Same with the second child she'd rather go to the extremes of using false names and going on the run then end the relationship with him . Then we have the abortion/s, getting pregnant seemingly with the hope of keeping him , hoping that a baby boy might keep him and then aborting when he didn't want that. And to this day she is supporting him rather than testifying against him and fighting to get her remaining daughter back.

 

[Tortoise]

That's a brilliant piece of evidence. With that one text she completely contradicts two of her claims about BB.

1. That he's never been violent to her.
2. That he's only violent to other men not women.

Him headbutting her like she was a bloke clearly shows that he doesn't differentiate between men and women when it comes to violence. And it's specific enough that she can't seriously claim that it's describing anything other than him headbutting her. That one text shows her to be the liar she is and IMO that is the text that will send her down



I agree, it may not have been premeditated beyond a few seconds or minutes but he must have known that grabbing her by her head and jaw and either throwing or hitting her with something would cause serious harm or death. The only thing that makes me think it probably wasn't premeditated a long time before it happened was that the cover up was so weak. I think if he'd have had more time to plan it he would have pulled off a better cover up and timed it so that she had been in somebody else's care just before it happened (unless his friend was going to be the person he set up but refused to come round and ruined that plan). I don't think he ever wanted Ellie and their whole campaign/appeal was to keep him out of prison rather than to get Ellie back.

Yep, you can't claim that being nutted is an exaggeration or "being berated not beaten" in her words, words that rang around the courtroom and still ring in my ears. I was Berated she says.

Her answer was always that she was "exaggerative" and b itchy, he was not violent to her ever. She thinks everyone was born yesterday.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it may have been her benefit fraud, claiming benefit while working.

Yes - that was the one. That wouldn't be her Dad IMO - well it doesn't fit my assumptions ( LOL)

 

[cottonweaver]

Yup "nutting" or "dropping the nut" on somebody is headbutting them , though I'm sure JG will come up with some daft explanation like "oh no I meant he threw a peanut at me!"

I hope the Pros QC gets some of these into his closing, because as you say CP , that "nutting" text is unambiguous.

 

[cottonweaver]

That just about answers all of my questions. I can't imagine losing my child and being able to keep my mind and being cunning enough to evade and plan etc... just unimaginable.

Monsters walk among us.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head so as soon as jury heard 999 call staging and her voice/actions on it and then heard JG on the stand - this point would have forcibly "hit" them.

 

[Tortoise]

BIB Oh my. I can hear that resentment. Those poor parents......if it's true.

Let's imagine that they found out but through another conduit as IDBelieve that any hosp would give away a termination even to a father. What do you think?
IDK enough about the legal side of things to know if her Dad is able to get any of her medical records at all , even if she has MH, even if she is at risk due to DV, even if he was in discussion with SS.
We know in Jan 2013 the SS found out she had been in hospital but I just guessed that was a direct channel between NHS & SS. Then it feeds back down to her Dad , possibly from SS?

Sorry to all, for my waffle, I am catching up .

No it was the 2011 abortion she claims he found out about.

 

[cottonweaver]

Phew - I have finally read this page now and CP's post about poor JG Dad poss suspecting as far back as 2007 that BB was guilty.

Just to add - I think for her parents and her sis & brother, best thing that could happen for their peace is that JG receives as long a sentence as possible, accompanied by some serious therapy. That family need a break - this BB JG nightmare has over-shadowed all their lives for the last 10 years, safest place for her is inside.

As for BB, he is a TOTAL lost cause IMO, IDCare what happens to him as long as it's a long one.( Forgotten the name of the in-prison orders that can be given to prisoners who are violent whilst inside, they can considerably lengthen a sentence, so with BB's violence he may stay inside for longer than the actual sentence delivered this June.)

PS. t'was on radio other day - reversal of the "extended family first" policy in favour of faster outside adoptions - new legislation supported by PMinister. ( So I can see why E was placed with gps initially, it was policy.)

I know it makes me sound like a N*zi , but people like this should be forcibly sterilised, as they may well be out in a short time and conceive again. They are both 36 yrs old?

 

[cottonweaver]

No it was the 2011 abortion she claims he found out about.

Yeah I know.
Apols, my post was prob confusing. I just was extending the point - IDBelieve hosp told Dad re abortion - it was prob SS who told him and later on from Jan 2013 it's clear SS had direct channel with hosp.

ETA -scratch that, I'm not even sure that SS can inform her Dad of a termination either!!!

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes, it's normal for the judge to ask questions of any witnesses if there is ground that hasn't been covered.

When I did jury service, if I had a question for the witness I would write it down, the usher would pass it to the judge and he read it to the witness, or passed it to counsel for them to answer if the witness had finished. Sometimes questions don't occur to you until you've thought it over afterwards, and by that time the witness is not on the stand.

BIB I bet you were a bad as*, in a good way, ie. getting nothing past you.

Also a judge can just jump in and ask, even if a juror does not ask a question IIRC.

 

[Tortoise]

Just to let you know JG'S father is Neal Gray. He's 67.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

He's 70 now Gigi.

It was their health and age that made them decide not to apply for care of YD when she was being recommended for adoption in 2012.

 

[cottonweaver]

So was the plan to make his friend the only or "other suspect" but when that failed he had to call JG home from work instead ? Were the blood drips from BB hitting JG when she told him she didn;t want to do that?

RSBM

That's an interesting point CP. This Ian guy is def important, as well as the critical point about BB trying NOT to be the last person to see her alive.

 

[cottonweaver]

Trying to build up a picture of what was going down in the two weeks leading up to Ellie's death, when parents seem to be alert to possibility school is getting concerned.
Thurs 24th Oct, a school day - BB takes Ellie to the GP about ear-pinning. Is this just so GP can say he saw Ellie with no noted concerns about her appearance?

I think BB, after his outburst at school, is going into melt down. Maybe he's walked out and said I'm not sticking around for this - we're going to be investigated again. To JG you can look after the children. He knows that if Ellie is given a proper health check, x-rays whatever, her broken shoulder will be discovered. Perhaps he goes to stay at Ian's, in a bid to distance himself.

RSBM

BIB - That's it IMO, that solves the ear pin back appointment - I always thought it was a cover story, but now it's falling into place as a piece of the bigger jigsaw he actively needed in place...... not just a "let's show the docs how much I sensitively care about my daughter's welfare/bullying " etc

 

[cottonweaver]

GIGI

I hope you are ok and the morphine isn't cause the fall was that bad!!

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head so as soon as jury heard 999 call staging and her voice/actions on it and then heard JG on the stand - this point would have forcibly "hit" them.

The biggest disparity IMO was between JG in her police interview and JG on the stand.

She was so different in her police interview. Nothing like you would expect a mother who has just lost a child. She was obviously acting and lying etc, still is, but it was her manner that was such a stark contrast. She was speaking in a different voice, none of this grandiosity she puts on in court, she was like the portrayal of Essex girl. Common as muck for our US friends.

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

BIB - That's it IMO, that solves the ear pin back appointment - I always thought it was a cover story, but now it's falling into place as a piece of the bigger jigsaw he actively needed in place...... not just a "let's show the docs how much I sensitively care about my daughter's welfare/bullying " etc

Yep, and an appointment for a referral for her ears would not involve undressing or a physical examination of her torso, bruised scapula. I can definitely see that the school was making them take urgent defensive measures, they were building a cover. Also BB is not avoiding GPs.

In actual fact I don't think the school was as concerned or proactive as JG and BB thought they were. Was this the reason perhaps that they slipped in a meeting with the grandparents too. But that being the day before Ellie died is just too much to be a coincidence. Either she pushed his buttons, he being wound up already, or he had to find a way to stop her talking.

I get the point about it not being very well planned if it was premeditated, but what the hell got into him? Does he just snap?

 

[Tortoise]

BIB I bet you were a bad as*, in a good way, ie. getting nothing past you.

Also a judge can just jump in and ask, even if a juror does not ask a question IIRC.

oh, do I come across as suspicious LOL

I think one of the hardest tasks for a jury is trying to suss out lies, in a person you haven't met before and who is anxious in that setting, even if not guilty. In this case it isn't hard because the lies just aren't believable.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yep, and an appointment for a referral for her ears would not involve undressing or a physical examination of her torso, bruised scapula. I can definitely see that the school was making them take urgent defensive measures, they were building a cover. Also BB is not avoiding GPs.

In actual fact I don't think the school was as concerned or proactive as JG and BB thought they were. Was this the reason perhaps that they slipped in a meeting with the grandparents too. But that being the day before Ellie died is just too much to be a coincidence. Either she pushed his buttons, he being wound up already, or he had to find a way to stop her talking.

I get the point about it not being very well planned if it was premeditated, but what the hell got into him? Does he just snap?

BIB Sorry to be a pain - can you clarify if you see this - re. UL. or just send me to the thread page to read about a grandparents meeting at the school.

PS Re. A previous post about deliberate murder, second smash onto the floor, finger bruising to jaw also fits.
Wouldn't surprise me, you know since day one I have been saying this guy isn't a red-mister , he isn't out of control, he hurts who he picks when he wants to, even the blokes he used to batter, I reckon he "sized them up" first. ( For US posters, choosing someone you think you can beat.)

The second whack may well be the critical thing. It's like one shot compared to four shots! One in temper, second to end it.

re. head-butt , does that leave the perp with a bruise though?, luckily I know nothing about head-butting nutters!