GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

BIB Sorry to be a pain - can you clarify if you see this - re. UL. or just send me to the thread page to read about a grandparents meeting at the school.

PS Re. A previous post about deliberate murder, second smash onto the floor, finger bruising to jaw also fits.
Wouldn't surprise me, you know since day one I have been saying this guy isn't a red-mister , he isn't out of control, he hurts who he picks when he wants to, even the blokes he used to batter, I reckon he "sized them up" first. ( For US posters, choosing someone you think you can beat.)

The second whack may well be the critical thing. It's like one shot compared to four shots! One in temper, second to end it.

re. head-butt , does that leave the perp with a bruise though?, luckily I know nothing about head-butting nutters!

not grandparents meeting at school, but meeting at mcdonalds.

know they're coming under scrutiny so rectify behaviour - get along to the gp and meet grandparents in case they complain they've been denied access.

I doubt he head butted her, as he could give himself a bump, although who really knows.

 

[Gigi-G]

He's 70 now Gigi.

It was their health and age that made them decide not to apply for care of YD when she was being recommended for adoption in 2012.

Thank you Tortoise.that's understandable tho at that age. I can't say I blame them. Tbh.

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[Gigi-G]

RSBM

That's an interesting point CP. This Ian guy is def important, as well as the critical point about BB trying NOT to be the last person to see her alive.

I often wondered what significance BB wanted to get hold of Ian for. He sure didn't want to take over any responsibility after Ellie was unconscious.
Maybe BB was trying to get him to come over. And as BB had already known Ellie wasn't in a good way. He was gonna get Ian to be his alibi. As he'd get Ian to go get Ellie.. imo

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[Gigi-G]

RSBM

BIB - That's it IMO, that solves the ear pin back appointment - I always thought it was a cover story, but now it's falling into place as a piece of the bigger jigsaw he actively needed in place...... not just a "let's show the docs how much I sensitively care about my daughter's welfare/bullying " etc

I agree the ear pinning was just a rouse. That way a professional had seen Ellie. And it will of been recorded. As we know it was.

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[Gigi-G]

GIGI

I hope you are ok and the morphine isn't cause the fall was that bad!!

Hello dear friend. I'm just rather sore. I've a swollen elbow top of arm. But it was bothering me before with being larger than my right arm. It's just doubled in size now. Hand is painful can't grip. And both hips are screaming when I move. Ankles just swollen. Lol I do like the effect the Morphine has as it does reduce the pain lots. Teach me for breakdancing won't it? 😂 gimme a few days I'll be fine 😊

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[Gigi-G]

Yep, and an appointment for a referral for her ears would not involve undressing or a physical examination of her torso, bruised scapula. I can definitely see that the school was making them take urgent defensive measures, they were building a cover. Also BB is not avoiding GPs.

In actual fact I don't think the school was as concerned or proactive as JG and BB thought they were. Was this the reason perhaps that they slipped in a meeting with the grandparents too. But that being the day before Ellie died is just too much to be a coincidence. Either she pushed his buttons, he being wound up already, or he had to find a way to stop her talking.

I get the point about it not being very well planned if it was premeditated, but what the hell got into him? Does he just snap?

I think he does just that. Snaps. And all hell unleashes. #sadbuttrue

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[Gigi-G]

oh, do I come across as suspicious LOL

I think one of the hardest tasks for a jury is trying to suss out lies, in a person you haven't met before and who is anxious in that setting, even if not guilty. In this case it isn't hard because the lies just aren't believable.

It's not suspicious. It's a career I've chosen to get into Tortoise. It's Profiling. And you can drum up a wealth of info about the person you're interviewing.

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[Gigi-G]

BIB Sorry to be a pain - can you clarify if you see this - re. UL. or just send me to the thread page to read about a grandparents meeting at the school.

PS Re. A previous post about deliberate murder, second smash onto the floor, finger bruising to jaw also fits.
Wouldn't surprise me, you know since day one I have been saying this guy isn't a red-mister , he isn't out of control, he hurts who he picks when he wants to, even the blokes he used to batter, I reckon he "sized them up" first. ( For US posters, choosing someone you think you can beat.)

The second whack may well be the critical thing. It's like one shot compared to four shots! One in temper, second to end it.

re. head-butt , does that leave the perp with a bruise though?, luckily I know nothing about head-butting nutters!

Head butt can leave a bruise yes. Depending on what part of the head. One punch can kill.

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[Gigi-G]

Here's another seriously sad screwed up case. Involving similar 'car crash' injuries to a lil boy. Another EVIL couple even though they are lesbians.

http://news.sky.com/story/1704675/liam-fee-pair-guilty-of-horrific-murder

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[jog]

This is a horrific case as well. But once again social services say we have learned a lesson from this . I am sorry but they are learning lessons at the expense of children dying! I believe some of the blame lies at the door of social services re Ellie's case. They should not have placed her in the care of 2 people se did not really know and then stop all visits after 3 months! They should have continued with spot checks ! If the parents don't like it tough , they should understand it is for the best interest of the child and that should be the parents concern as well I especially if they have nothing to hide! We were told lessons would be learned after baby p and the Victoria climbie case many years ago but still the cases continue. Social services are overworked we know that but still!!!! Sorry rant over , I just find it incredibly sad when needless deaths of children could be avoided

 

[michelle230]

Hi
I`ve just joined the site.

I`ve been following the BB/JG case and have attended the Old Bailey around six days so far and hope to go when it continues next week and the final week.

I have enjoyed (if that`s the right word!) reading all your posts. Very thoughtful and insightful. The profiling especially is of interest to me.

Trying to get inside her head (JG) led me to a very sick thought. She had children to try to tie BB to her. It didn`t work. However, only in BB killing their child did she achieve her goal. He is now totally dependant on her, tied to her, will have to play "nice" with her, and where he`s going there certainly will be no chance of cheating on her. She got her man in the end.
Look forward to discussing and sharing thoughts.
Michelle

 

[Nellie Nelson]

WELCOME michelle230.

It's going to be fab having another eye witness to the court proceedings. Really looking forward to your insights.

Has there been any particular moment in court so far where you sensed that one of the defendants was clearly lying through their teeth and that everyone knew it?

 

[jog]

Thank you Tortoise.that's understandable tho at that age. I can't say I blame them. Tbh.

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The younger child has definitely been adopted now though? Wouldn't want there to be even the remotest chance she could return to JG If BB gets a life sentence

 

[Gigi-G]

The younger child has definitely been adopted now though? Wouldn't want there to be even the remotest chance she could return to JG If BB gets a life sentence

I'm sure YD has been fostered at least. Hopefully to the same family she was before. And hopefully she will get thru this awful time.. it's okay all the focus being on BB JG and poor sweet Ellie. But we forget that this lil one has gone thru a nightmarish time herself. Hearing. Seeing. And being told she must shhhhh. It's so sad she's so young so hopefully. She can negate the trauma she's witnessed.

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[Gigi-G]

Hi
I`ve just joined the site.

I`ve been following the BB/JG case and have attended the Old Bailey around six days so far and hope to go when it continues next week and the final week.

I have enjoyed (if that`s the right word!) reading all your posts. Very thoughtful and insightful. The profiling especially is of interest to me.

Trying to get inside her head (JG) led me to a very sick thought. She had children to try to tie BB to her. It didn`t work. However, only in BB killing their child did she achieve her goal. He is now totally dependant on her, tied to her, will have to play "nice" with her, and where he`s going there certainly will be no chance of cheating on her. She got her man in the end.
Look forward to discussing and sharing thoughts.
Michelle

Hi n welcome. Please. Do add your views. Or info, would be great to hear your ideas n views

Even now tho. I still feel they think that they have every chance of getting off a murder charge. And neglect. They are so arrogant. BB thinks he's in leagues with the Crown's finest defence. Trying to direct the prosecution into a different subject. Altho Mr FitzG I think has become a thorn in BB'S side. As he will redirect the same quality back to BB. Quite brilliant. Lol. !

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[michelle230]

Hi Nellie and Gi-Gi,
Thanks for the welcome! I will do my best to report back but I don`t think I will anywhere near as good as Tortoise!
Nellie - to be honest I can`t see any way that they won`t be convicted. I think the jury know exactly who and what they are dealing with. I think we are all incredulous at the unbelievable lies she thinks the jury will fall for. When a point is made (in her favour- either by BB or the defence), she nods furiously, up and down, throwing her head right back and then forward to her chin, for nearly a whole minute. She clearly thinks this will reassure us all that the truth is being spoken. She reminds me of the nodding dog in that advert (Churchill I think!)
I just hope that when she is found guilty (obviously on the lesser charges), the judge gives her the stiffest sentence allowed in the guidelines. Because quite honestly although she may not have struck the blows, she is every bit as guilty IMO.
Michelle

 

[ColourPurple]

Hi Nellie and Gi-Gi,
Thanks for the welcome! I will do my best to report back but I don`t think I will anywhere near as good as Tortoise!
Nellie - to be honest I can`t see any way that they won`t be convicted. I think the jury know exactly who and what they are dealing with. I think we are all incredulous at the unbelievable lies she thinks the jury will fall for. When a point is made (in her favour- either by BB or the defence), she nods furiously, up and down, throwing her head right back and then forward to her chin, for nearly a whole minute. She clearly thinks this will reassure us all that the truth is being spoken. She reminds me of the nodding dog in that advert (Churchill I think!)
I just hope that when she is found guilty (obviously on the lesser charges), the judge gives her the stiffest sentence allowed in the guidelines. Because quite honestly although she may not have struck the blows, she is every bit as guilty IMO.
Michelle

Totally agree with you there. She put Ellie in that situation knowing how violent BB was and how much he hated her and she put her own needs before Ellie's time and time again. IMO she's lucky that her charges aren't more serious.

 

[ColourPurple]

Trying to get inside her head (JG) led me to a very sick thought. She had children to try to tie BB to her. It didn`t work. However, only in BB killing their child did she achieve her goal. He is now totally dependant on her, tied to her, will have to play "nice" with her, and where he`s going there certainly will be no chance of cheating on her. She got her man in the end.

She sure did and as one final insult to Ellie she continues to support him instead of demanding justice for her little girl, just like she did back in 2007.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi Nellie and Gi-Gi,
Thanks for the welcome! I will do my best to report back but I don`t think I will anywhere near as good as Tortoise!
Nellie - to be honest I can`t see any way that they won`t be convicted. I think the jury know exactly who and what they are dealing with. I think we are all incredulous at the unbelievable lies she thinks the jury will fall for. When a point is made (in her favour- either by BB or the defence), she nods furiously, up and down, throwing her head right back and then forward to her chin, for nearly a whole minute. She clearly thinks this will reassure us all that the truth is being spoken. She reminds me of the nodding dog in that advert (Churchill I think!)
I just hope that when she is found guilty (obviously on the lesser charges), the judge gives her the stiffest sentence allowed in the guidelines. Because quite honestly although she may not have struck the blows, she is every bit as guilty IMO.
Michelle

Hi Michelle, not sure who you are but I've probably seen you in court, if not spoken in person. Glad you've joined.

Were you there last week when I had my mints taken away?

 

[michelle230]

Ha! Ha! Tortoise - you have confirmed my suspicions. My partner in mint smuggling crime!! Yes - it was me lol