GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

Ha! Ha! Tortoise - you have confirmed my suspicions. My partner in mint smuggling crime!! Yes - it was me lol

Ha! It was the Churchill dog that gave it away!

 

[ColourPurple]

That's really interesting. It does seem like they certainly sat down and tried to think of their best chance of getting away with it and planned very carefully to try and do so.

I've also wondered if similar is true of the clothes soaked in BBs blood and JGs blood being around the house and possibly on her washed clothes too.

I suspect that they may initially have tried to create another scenario absolving themselves from blame - one where a third party attacker was involved and came into the house and attacked BB and JG alongside E. And I think that they might have harmed themselves to make it look like they too had been attacked alongside E and were victims rather than perpetrators. But for some reason abandoned this plan? Perhaps they intended to fit up Ian as an attacker but when he refused to come to the house had to abandon that plan and go with plan B confusion over who killed E out of the two of them.

It would certainly explain why the blood of both of them was so plentiful in the house.

I wouldn't put it past them but with these days of CCTV everywhere it'd be a riskier option and easy to disprove if there were any CCTV cameras near their house. Having somebody actually be in the house would look more believable. BB could have seen how seriously hurt Ellie was, planned to invite his mate round and then made an excuse to pop out leaving him to watch the kids, then denied all knowledge of the injury. He's so used to blaming everybody else for everything I wouldn't be surprised if looking for a scapegoat was his default reaction to any situation where he could get into trouble.

 

[michelle230]

Just in case anyone wonders what we are on about - both Tortoise and I had our mints confiscated, during bag search, by an over zealous security guard who said we might make a noise crunching them and thus distract the jury lol!!

 

[ColourPurple]

RSBM

That's an interesting point CP. This Ian guy is def important, as well as the critical point about BB trying NOT to be the last person to see her alive.

I reckon he was either trying to set him up or asking him for help in a cover up, either way his plan failed.JG telling work that her daughters godfather was going to be looking after her rather than BB that day still bugs me though. Why lie about who was looking after Ellie when at that point nothing had happened to her?

 

[ColourPurple]

Just in case anyone wonders what we are on about - both Tortoise and I had our mints confiscated, during bag search, by an over zealous security guard who said we might make a noise crunching them and thus distract the jury lol!!

Haha, better go armed with soft mints next time.

 

[ColourPurple]

RSBM

BIB - That's it IMO, that solves the ear pin back appointment - I always thought it was a cover story, but now it's falling into place as a piece of the bigger jigsaw he actively needed in place...... not just a "let's show the docs how much I sensitively care about my daughter's welfare/bullying " etc

Do I remember correctly that the appointment was on a school day too? So maybe an excuse to keep her off school if she had bruising to her body or legs that might have been revealed in PE

 

[ColourPurple]

I doubt he head butted her, as he could give himself a bump, although who really knows.

I wonder if that was what caused JG's bump on her head previously though. The one they noticed at work.

I also had a thought about an injury that might have caused all the blood dripping stains but not left a noticeable injury... a nose bleed!! From either being punched or headbutted on the nose by BB. Of course they can just happen for no reason too, not sure if that excuse would have been any more believable than JG's heavy vaginal bleeding excuse though.

 

[Gigi-G]

I wonder if that was what caused JG's bump on her head previously though. The one they noticed at work.

I also had a thought about an injury that might have caused all the blood dripping stains but not left a noticeable injury... a nose bleed!! From either being punched or headbutted on the nose by BB. Of course they can just happen for no reason too, not sure if that excuse would have been any more believable than JG's heavy vaginal bleeding excuse though.

The only thing that would create quite a mess.. is a nose bleed. That bump on her head might of been the lump caused by his skull against hers but his chin could of caught her nose. Tah dah... nosebleed. My youngest is awful for them. The slightest knock from anything and it pours. Very annoying. And scary as it seems an awful lot.
The would/could compensate for blood around the home.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[cottonweaver]

Ha! Ha! Tortoise - you have confirmed my suspicions. My partner in mint smuggling crime!! Yes - it was me lol

Whoop whoop we have another new poster and an Old Bailey attender as well.

:newbie:


Mints ? Funny!
I knew that that Tortoise was trouble, Michelle. :copcar:

Really looking forward to hearing your snippets & impressions.

 

[cottonweaver]

Do I remember correctly that the appointment was on a school day too? So maybe an excuse to keep her off school if she had bruising to her body or legs that might have been revealed in PE

Yes CP, that's very sneaky isn't it.
I've got 23/10/13 weds Dr Sheldon Huggins* for the apptnmnt.

 

[Gigi-G]

Totally on a tangent. I've researched into this a few years ago. When the poop hits the fan. This is where all the bigwigs will be. ...

Is there a secret apocalypse bunker BURIED beneath Denver airport?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...neath-8091996#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[cottonweaver]

Totally on a tangent. I've researched into this a few years ago. When the poop hits the fan. This is where all the bigwigs will be. ...

Is there a secret apocalypse bunker BURIED beneath Denver airport?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...neath-8091996#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Glad to hear you are better Gigi. x

Re your previous post - I agree if YD ( Youngest daughter for new posters) went back in 2013 to the first foster parents, even temporarily, that would be a relief rather than strangers initially. Some initial sense of comfort and security for YD.

Almost three years on from E's death she may even be with a new adoptive family now.

 

[cottonweaver]

I wonder if that was what caused JG's bump on her head previously though. The one they noticed at work.

I also had a thought about an injury that might have caused all the blood dripping stains but not left a noticeable injury... a nose bleed!! From either being punched or headbutted on the nose by BB. Of course they can just happen for no reason too, not sure if that excuse would have been any more believable than JG's heavy vaginal bleeding excuse though.

Yes, if it happened on the afternoon of the 28th Oct, it has to be injury which leaves no external mark to be noticed by all the medical staff/cops.
Also as another poster( sorry don't recall exactly who now) pointed out previously, JG was probably a dab hand with heavy duty cosmetic concealers by 2013, after years of covering for his DV.

We went through, knocking out teeth, internal injuries, nosebleeds- but it sounds like the latter is the most likely - I am presuming the dripping can give the effect that the forensics guy described as

"Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried."
from previous look up , it's defined as :
"Expirated blood spatter is a type of impact spatter. Expirated blood is blood that has passed through the trachea (windpipe) and is blown out of the mouth or nose, causing an array of small droplets."

http://therealcsi.tumblr.com/post/22667147945/expirated-blood-spatter

 

[cottonweaver]

Long post alert !
On sentencing, here is a similar case sentenced last month in the UK.

For U.S. based posters, gives an idea of sentencing ranges, appreciating the cases are different, but there are some similarities and there's hope for some meaningful sentences with BB & JG, albeit reversed in this case where the mother is the murderer.

"For 16 weeks of her short life, Ayeeshia Jane Smith thrived in the care of a foster family. But within months of being returned to her mother she was dead after suffering a catalogue of injuries likened to a car crash........."

A "devious" and "selfish" mother has been jailed for at least 24 years for murdering 21-month-old Ayeeshia Jane Smith during a "savage outburst" in the girl's bedroom surrounded by her toys and playthings.
Child died after suffering a fatal heart laceration - a type of injury usually only found in crash victims - probably caused by a stamp. What exactly happened in her final moments may never be known - with Rigby and Smith repeatedly changing their stories. ( In contrast to their original police statements, the pair told the court the other had been the last to see Ayeeshia. Far from appearing traumatised by the night's events, the couple, who have since split, were "uncooperative" and "hostile" to police at Queen's Hospital in Burton. Tests on Ayeeshia's lifeless body showed she had a violent end - with a historical bleed to the brain, spinal damage and bruising from "gripping" of her neck.)

But it was found that she had suffered many other injuries, including a bleed on the brain, in the months before she was killed.
Mother Smith claimed throughout the trial Ayeeshia died after a seizure, while then partner Rigby told the court the child's injuries could have been caused when he gave her CPR. .Child's mother had a history of self harm, substance abuse and mental health issues. Both defendants had a 'volatile" relationship.....‘two peas from the same pod’ who sought to protect each other by lying...They thrived on the turbulence of their violent, drug-fuelled relationship, loved the ‘breaking up and the making up’ , the prosecution claimed


He was jailed for three years and six months after being found guilty of causing or allowing Ayeeshia's death.

sentencing remarks by Judge

Mrs Justice Andrews called Ayeeshia's mother a "devious, manipulative and selfish young woman".
She said Smith was "prepared to tell lie after lie" to get her own way, and that Ayeeshia had come "a poor second" during her brief life.
"You wanted to take care of Ayeeshia yourself but not at the expense of running your life, and especially your love life, the way you wanted," she said..."freely having relationships with violent men and putting Ayeeshia at serious risk. She even defended them when police and social services tried to intervene.".....
"The outburst of savage violence was not an isolated incident and Smith had an "explosive temper", she said."

"The picture you wished to paint of yourself of the down-trodden subservient mother is far from the truth.
"Neither immaturity nor lack of intelligence was a significant factor in the commission of these offences.
"Just a case of venting your anger on a defenceless child."

She told Rigby he knew Ayeeshia was at risk but turned a blind eye.
"Your failure to act when you could and should have done is something you'll have to live with for the rest of your life," she told him.
The judge said: "Ayeeshia was a particularly vulnerable victim, thin and slight of frame, deserving of protection and under the protection of social services for the whole of her short life.
"She was killed in her own home by her own mother - that is the grossest breach of trust."

Public enquiry has been called for by the local MP due to the failings of SServices.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-35938209

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36013256

"But they stayed together even after Ayeeshia died and were in a relationship right up until the start of the trial.
They claimed to have then split up but at the start of the trial Smith presented Rigby with a locket containing Ayeeshia's ashes.
Judge Geraldine Andrews demanded an explanation from the couple’s barristers when she was made aware of the embrace in a room just off the dock on Tuesday." As bail conditions meant they should have zero contact - relates to Jog's point a while ago.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-toddler-s-horrific-death.html#ixzz4AKEYsMvp

PS Social services wanted Smith to sign a contract agreeing to stop seeing Rigby but she refused.

 

[theirmommy]

I don't think she wanted a baby , I think she wanted BB and saw having his baby as a way of achieving that. Each time she's had to chose between her child/children or BB she's chosen him. If she just wanted a baby and not him then when Ellie nearly died at 7weeks , here was her chance to walk away and keep her baby... instead she chose him and gave up her baby. Same with the second child she'd rather go to the extremes of using false names and going on the run then end the relationship with him . Then we have the abortion/s, getting pregnant seemingly with the hope of keeping him , hoping that a baby boy might keep him and then aborting when he didn't want that. And to this day she is supporting him rather than testifying against him and fighting to get her remaining daughter back.

You are right on !

 

[ColourPurple]

Long post alert !
On sentencing, here is a similar case sentenced last month in the UK.

For U.S. based posters, gives an idea of sentencing ranges, appreciating the cases are different, but there are some similarities and there's hope for some meaningful sentences with BB & JG, albeit reversed in this case where the mother is the murderer.



A "devious" and "selfish" mother has been jailed for at least 24 years for murdering 21-month-old Ayeeshia Jane Smith during a "savage outburst" in the girl's bedroom surrounded by her toys and playthings.
Child died after suffering a fatal heart laceration - a type of injury usually only found in crash victims - probably caused by a stamp. What exactly happened in her final moments may never be known - with Rigby and Smith repeatedly changing their stories. ( In contrast to their original police statements, the pair told the court the other had been the last to see Ayeeshia. Far from appearing traumatised by the night's events, the couple, who have since split, were "uncooperative" and "hostile" to police at Queen's Hospital in Burton. Tests on Ayeeshia's lifeless body showed she had a violent end - with a historical bleed to the brain, spinal damage and bruising from "gripping" of her neck.)

But it was found that she had suffered many other injuries, including a bleed on the brain, in the months before she was killed.
Mother Smith claimed throughout the trial Ayeeshia died after a seizure, while then partner Rigby told the court the child's injuries could have been caused when he gave her CPR. .Child's mother had a history of self harm, substance abuse and mental health issues. Both defendants had a 'volatile" relationship.....‘two peas from the same pod’ who sought to protect each other by lying...They thrived on the turbulence of their violent, drug-fuelled relationship, loved the ‘breaking up and the making up’ , the prosecution claimed


He was jailed for three years and six months after being found guilty of causing or allowing Ayeeshia's death.

sentencing remarks by Judge


Public enquiry has been called for by the local MP due to the failings of SServices.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-35938209

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36013256


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-toddler-s-horrific-death.html#ixzz4AKEYsMvp

PS Social services wanted Smith to sign a contract agreeing to stop seeing Rigby but she refused.

Eerily similar.

I can't understand why JG wasn't charged with the same charge as Rigby "Causing or allowing death of a child" Ther law states

15C Causing or allowing death or serious physical harm


It is an offence to cause or allow the death of a child or vulnerable adult or to cause or allow a child or vulnerable adult to suffer serious physical harm (Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, s.5, as amended by the 2012 Act, s.1).


A person (“D&#8221 is guilty of an offence if (s.5(1))–


(a) a child or vulnerable adult (“V&#8221 dies or suffers serious physical harm as a result of the unlawful act of a person who was a member of the same household as V and had frequent contact with him;


(b) D was such a person at the time of that act;


(c) at that time there was a significant risk of serious physical harm being caused to V by the unlawful act of such a person; and


(d) either D was the person whose act caused the death or serious physical harm or (i) D was, or ought to have been, aware of the risk mentioned in (c) above, (ii) D failed to take such steps as he could reasonably have been expected to take to protect V from the risk, and (iii) the act occurred in circumstances of the kind that D foresaw or ought to have foreseen.


For an offence to have been committed the victim must have died of an unlawful act, and therefore the offence will not apply where the death or serious physical harm was an accident. If D was not the mother or father of V, D may not be charged with an offence if he was under the age of 16 at the time of the act that caused V’s death or serious physical harm (s.5(3)).

Where there are two defendants and it is established that one must have caused the death or serious physical harm and the other must have failed to take reasonable steps to prevent it, the prosecution does not have to prove which is which (s.5(2)).

https://www.cans.org.uk/notes/famil...ng-or-allowing-death-or-serious-physical-harm


I assume that the fact that she wasn't charged with that is the reason she was not remanded into custody like BB, which resulted in her being able to visit him to get their stories straight

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, if it happened on the afternoon of the 28th Oct, it has to be injury which leaves no external mark to be noticed by all the medical staff/cops.
Also as another poster( sorry don't recall exactly who now) pointed out previously, JG was probably a dab hand with heavy duty cosmetic concealers by 2013, after years of covering for his DV.

We went through, knocking out teeth, internal injuries, nosebleeds- but it sounds like the latter is the most likely - I am presuming the dripping can give the effect that the forensics guy described as

"Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried."
from previous look up , it's defined as :
"Expirated blood spatter is a type of impact spatter. Expirated blood is blood that has passed through the trachea (windpipe) and is blown out of the mouth or nose, causing an array of small droplets."

http://therealcsi.tumblr.com/post/22667147945/expirated-blood-spatter

This was no normal household. If my home was searched now they wouldn't find a single blood stained item. How many homes have blood soaked towels, blood stained clothing, blood stained oillows and blood stains on the carpet ? Yet in one go theyve found all of those and from three different people

Ellie's blood on a pillow
Ellie's blood on a cushion
JG's blood on a shirt
JG's blood drips/splatters from Ellie's room to the bathroom
JG's blood soaked towel
BB's blood soaked clothing

 

[Gigi-G]

Glad to hear you are better Gigi. x

Re your previous post - I agree if YD ( Youngest daughter for new posters) went back in 2013 to the first foster parents, even temporarily, that would be a relief rather than strangers initially. Some initial sense of comfort and security for YD.

Almost three years on from E's death she may even be with a new adoptive family now.

I hope the original foster family were given the opportunity to adopt that would be great.

And thank you feeling better. Just bloody sore. My old muscles don't like being stretched to their limit.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

Eerily similar.

I can't understand why JG wasn't charged with the same charge as Rigby "Causing or allowing death of a child" Ther law states


https://www.cans.org.uk/notes/famil...ng-or-allowing-death-or-serious-physical-harm


I assume that the fact that she wasn't charged with that is the reason she was not remanded into custody like BB, which resulted in her being able to visit him to get their stories straight

IMO the charges have been brought as they have because of the difficulty (with allowing the death charge) of proving that JG foresaw or ought to have foreseen the risk of death. And also not knowing whether JG was at home at the actual time of the act of violence and death. In the case of Ayeeshia Smith both defendants were at home and the jury had to decide which of them had murdered her and which had allowed her death, or if they couldn't be certain which one of them murdered her - if they were both guilty of allowing her death.

That is my crude understanding of it. The maximum sentence for causing or allowing death of a child is 14 years.

Child cruelty carries a maximum of 10 years. (assuming this link is up to date)

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...saults_on_children_and_cruelty_to_a_child.pdf

mitigating factors include amongst others (these are the ones I think they might use in this case) mental illness/depression and offender dominated by an abusive partner.

and aggravating factors include targeting one particular child from the family, threats to prevent the victim from reporting the offence, deliberate concealment of the victim from the authorities and failure to seek medical help.

I'm not sure whether she will put forward domination by an abusive partner. She's not run that as a defence so it would be a bit of a turn around to say her whole evidence was all a lie, even if that's what the court concludes. If she appeals conviction then such an admission at sentencing would seem to fly in the face of her claim that Ellie had an undiagnosed medical condition since birth, and there was no violence.

However her cruelty charge only relates to not seeking medical treatment for Ellie's fractured scapula, not for example exposing her to or allowing violence. If she admits DV she is admitting she concealed his violence during the family court proceedings and is possibly more culpable than what she has been charged with.

 

[cottonweaver]

IMO the charges have been brought as they have because of the difficulty (with allowing the death charge) of proving that JG foresaw or ought to have foreseen the risk of death. And also not knowing whether JG was at home at the actual time of the act of violence and death. In the case of Ayeeshia Smith both defendants were at home and the jury had to decide which of them had murdered her and which had allowed her death, or if they couldn't be certain which one of them murdered her - if they were both guilty of allowing her death.

The facts of the case are indeed different so you can't extrapolate one case to another but the similarities are uncanny.
( The Ayeeshia Smith case is one of the worst in recent times, the poor child had not even been fed for a week prior to her murder and then the child benefit payment after her death was still claimed for 6 months.)
Also - in so far as the mitigation issues which might be argued re Mental Health for JG- the Smith mother's MH issues didn't count as mitigation for her, even in this case the mother is the perpetrator. Ditto the mother made repeated 999 calls reporting her boyfriend for DV threats both to herself & Ayeeshia & had a history of DV relationships & consequent low self esteem. ( TBH, no idea how they decided it was her the mum instead of the boyfriend who gave the fatal blow as both implicated each other. )

Anyway I wonder if the courts are taking these types of crimes more seriously? It's certainly motivating SServices at last as follows:

"Panicked child protection officers are referring one in every five children to social services for fear that they could be the next Baby P or Ayeeshia Smith.

Recent high-profile cases of toddler abuse have caused a 'climate of fear' to fester among those working with young children, leaving care agencies terrified another death will be reported on their watch".... Professor Bilson stressed that the increase in investigations did not lead to a rise in the number of children being significantly harmed.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sing-Ayeeshia-Smith-Baby-P.html#ixzz4AMezlib4
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