GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

'What I am talking about is someone jumping up and down on the bed and, as Peppa Pig does, jumps over backwards, falls down and hits her head on the concrete floor.
Prof Risdon replied: 'I have seen a large number of head injuries in children. I have never come across a scenario like that and I have never come across a short distance fall that results in a similar injury.'
Mr Brown said today: 'There is no rhyme with the five little pigs on that DVD, there is no jumping to their deaths, there is no jumping on their heads.
'Ellie was not a girl who was reckless. She was sure-footed you may think. She was not unbalanced in any way. She was an agile, normal girl.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trial-Ellie-Butler-murder.html#ixzz4B0LqEdy9

 

[Tortoise]

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK [video=twitter;740548644739383296]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/740548644739383296[/video]
The Ben Butler trial resumed today after a week's break. He has just launched a familiar rant from the dock about being 'stitched up'

 

[ColourPurple]

OH MY GOD!

Can you imagine the jury's reaction, peppa pig tune ringing in their ears, after weeks of testimony from a couple of charlatans describing a squalid life & brutal abuse ?
Think they've hit a bum note with that one.

In the previous links I pasted re. Dr Janice O ( thread 1) she even referenced the Muppets in her testimony! :facepalm:

Wonder which one of the vile pair thought up the idea to blame Peppa Pig and then put a Peppa Pig DVD playing in the background for when the paramedics arrived, just to really set the scene. And anyway, would the DVD not have finished playing by the time they arrived if the injury had happened at least 2 hours before? As the prosecutor I'd have been tempted to argue that if Ellie was a big Peppa pig fan surely she'd have not dared to jump on the bed like Peppa as Peppa ended up in hospital and the DVD is supposed to discourage kids from doing the same not encourage them to copy Peppa.

And anyway.. I thought she was supposed to have fallen off the little stool that was lying on it's side as part of the staging?? Or was that a back up ?

Sorry but the thought of Ellie lying there dying or dead on her bedroom floor and them using her favourite TV character as part of the cover up disgusts me.

 

[ColourPurple]

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK [video=twitter;740548644739383296]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/740548644739383296[/video]
The Ben Butler trial resumed today after a week's break. He has just launched a familiar rant from the dock about being 'stitched up'

Hopefully reminding the jury exactly what his temperament is like.

 

[ColourPurple]

'What I am talking about is someone jumping up and down on the bed and, as Peppa Pig does, jumps over backwards, falls down and hits her head on the concrete floor.
Prof Risdon replied: 'I have seen a large number of head injuries in children. I have never come across a scenario like that and I have never come across a short distance fall that results in a similar injury.'
Mr Brown said today: 'There is no rhyme with the five little pigs on that DVD, there is no jumping to their deaths, there is no jumping on their heads.
'Ellie was not a girl who was reckless. She was sure-footed you may think. She was not unbalanced in any way. She was an agile, normal girl.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trial-Ellie-Butler-murder.html#ixzz4B0LqEdy9

She'd have had a long history of similar "accidents" at school and while she was in her GP's care if she really did have a major existing problem.

I don't like the way he's referred to it as a concrete floor either, as it was carpeted.

 

[Gigi-G]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36475288

urgh, wtf?

(Don't think I'm going to make it to court this week either as previous plans have fallen through unfortunately)

At the deliberation. The Jury are going to have to question. The vulnerability of Ellie's skull in proximity to the other 'abnormalities' that were found in the post mortem to obtain the evidence of caused of death. Which was established as a 'blunt force trauma' agreed by both specialists. Dr Marinades. (Please forgive spelling) and Dr Ophaven. Altho BB and JG requested her specifically as she seems more sympathetic for the 'Defence' cases. Rather than Prosecution. Albeit that she failed to remind the Jury. That Ellie's 'backward' fall as she states was a 'blunt force trauma as Ellie's head smashed against the 'CONCRETE' floor. Which is incorrect as it was a soft bedroom carpet. Which was either foam backed. Or had a kind of thin foam underlay.
The bloodstained carpet where Ellie laid was cut out and taken for forensic evidence.

I don't envy the Jury at all. But BB serves himself no favours. Yet again today he had a shouting rant ' I've been stitched up! We've been stitched up!'

I do honestly pray. That this horrid abysmal excuse for a 'man and father' gets a lengthy sentence. Where he can plead to his hearts content. 3 times is all you can plead via 3 Judges.
And I hope his lack of decorum and manners in front of The Judge, and honoured members. Goes against him as the Judge has been very lenient and not actually passed that BB be tried for Contempt of Court!

Cuz I shall scream n scream n scream til I make myself sick if he gets off lightly! [emoji120]




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[Gigi-G]

More from Dr O



"Dr Ophoven also told jurors the finger marks found on the little girl's jaw - previously referred to as grip marks - were most consistent with someone fixing a bag over her mouth to perform CPR."


If Ellie was already dead by the time paramedics got there would her body bruise?

No. Dead bodies do not bruise.

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[Gigi-G]

OH MY GOD!

Can you imagine the jury's reaction, peppa pig tune ringing in their ears, after weeks of testimony from a couple of charlatans describing a squalid life & brutal abuse ?
Think they've hit a bum note with that one.

In the previous links I pasted re. Dr Janice O ( thread 1) she even referenced the Muppets in her testimony! :facepalm:

PEPPA PIG DID IT! OMFG!

can see the headlines now....

PEPPA PIG ADMITS TO PERVERTING THE COURSE OF JUSTICE. BY TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE. ALONG WITH BB AND JG!

sorry.... I lost it there . [emoji102]

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[cottonweaver]

CourtNewsUK ‏@CourtNewsUK [video=twitter;740548644739383296]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/740548644739383296[/video]
The Ben Butler trial resumed today after a week's break. He has just launched a familiar rant from the dock about being 'stitched up'

Wonder what brought this next rant on for him?
Maybe it was the cross x of Dr Janice O .

This is Dr J.O being crossed by an American prosecutor in an earlier case. ( From a thread 1 link)

William Tangeman, who is lead prosecutor in the case from the Nebraska Attorney General’s office, pointed out that Ophoven is a paid witness for the defense, who works out of her home and solely does contract work for defense attorneys in these types of cases.
“Isn’t it true that you have to disagree with the doctors who actually attended to the patient or you won’t be hired?” asked Tangeman.
“No!” Dr. Ophoven objected.
“Otherwise, there’s no reason for you to talk to a jury,” Tangeman said.
“I’m here to clarify the key points,” Dr. Ophoven.
“Do you take all the cases that come to you?” asked Rappl.
“No, I take those where I can be of assistance,” Dr. Ophoven said. “I only take the cases where it looks like there may have been a rush to judgment, misunderstanding or misinterpretation. Mistakes can be made and it’s important for someone to point that out.”
Through questioning, it was also established that Dr. Ophoven is paid $4,000 to review a case, another $4,000 to generate a report and then another $4,000 to testify. The doctor also said she makes $180,000 a year doing this type of work.

http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/c...cle_7a631db0-66b4-11e2-8a43-001a4bcf887a.html

and here's the controversy about her doing autopsys in her own state and her cut & paste methods as a Defence expert - so that she actually got the method of delivery all wrong

Years ago, when she was working as a medical examiner, she said she did hundreds of autopsies. Tangeman asked her about a request from a chief medical officer in Minnesota who told her that if she didn’t stop doing “second opinion” testimony for defense attorneys, she would no longer be asked to perform autopsies in that state. While Dr. Ophoven said Tangeman was “mischaracterizing the event” she did admit that “he asked me to stop doing defense cases in Minnesota, so I did.”
“You’ve said that you don’t copy and paste opinions from case to case,” Tangeman said. “I’ve copied a number of your reports from different cases and they all seem very similar.”
“I copy and paste graphics, some backgrounds, but not opinions,” Dr. Ophoven said.
“In your deposition, you said that vaginal birth can cause skull fractures,” Tangeman said to the doctor. “You attributed Kayley’s skull fracture to traumatic vaginal birth?”
It was pointed out that Kayley was born by C-section.
Dr. Ophoven said that when she said that in error, she also clarified it could have also happened during a C-section.
“Dr. Haney said a C-section couldn’t cause this,” Tangeman said.
“Yes, it’s unlikely, but it can happen,” Dr. Ophoven said.

 

[cottonweaver]

'What I am talking about is someone jumping up and down on the bed and, as Peppa Pig does, jumps over backwards, falls down and hits her head on the concrete floor.
Prof Risdon replied: 'I have seen a large number of head injuries in children. I have never come across a scenario like that and I have never come across a short distance fall that results in a similar injury.'
Mr Brown said today: 'There is no rhyme with the five little pigs on that DVD, there is no jumping to their deaths, there is no jumping on their heads.
'Ellie was not a girl who was reckless. She was sure-footed you may think. She was not unbalanced in any way. She was an agile, normal girl.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trial-Ellie-Butler-murder.html#ixzz4B0LqEdy9

BIB _ that's interesting, so even on their version, Ellie wasn't, in fact, copying the DVD!
Butler put the wrong DVD in the machine on the 28th?, if E had a few of them.

 

[cottonweaver]

Wonder which one of the vile pair thought up the idea to blame Peppa Pig and then put a Peppa Pig DVD playing in the background for when the paramedics arrived, just to really set the scene. And anyway, would the DVD not have finished playing by the time they arrived if the injury had happened at least 2 hours before? As the prosecutor I'd have been tempted to argue that if Ellie was a big Peppa pig fan surely she'd have not dared to jump on the bed like Peppa as Peppa ended up in hospital and the DVD is supposed to discourage kids from doing the same not encourage them to copy Peppa.

And anyway.. I thought she was supposed to have fallen off the little stool that was lying on it's side as part of the staging?? Or was that a back up ?

Sorry but the thought of Ellie lying there dying or dead on her bedroom floor and them using her favourite TV character as part of the cover up disgusts me.

BIB I didn't know that about this kids' cartoonCP, that's interesting, what a shame Mr Brown didn't know either.

Agree, this pair make me sick, and angry.

Right at the outset the reports were that the DVD was stuck on the "menu page" and that PPig items were all around the room. I said back then, any parent who knew their child did dangerous copying would have removed the PP toys. However it sounded to me like one of them could have even dotted the PP toys around the room as part of their elaborate staging. ( I also thought this was even an excuse they had dreamed up before, to explain another injury, but hadn't used this excuse yet. It may be a stretch but I also previously wondered if that was why they bought a puppy - provides more cover stories in tripping "accidents". )

JG doesn't even "feel" anyway , is just as crafty as him, so could be her that did the room dressing!
Any mother, with a child dead by "accident" would have been bereft in court with the cartoon tune playing. In that situation, mothers would find it hard to even see children's TV again.

 

[cottonweaver]

She'd have had a long history of similar "accidents" at school and while she was in her GP's care if she really did have a major existing problem.

I don't like the way he's referred to it as a concrete floor either, as it was carpeted.

Yes, we all went back & forth on that ref to concrete as we couldn't establish the bedroom floor construction nor did we get any reference in the forensics reports nor Dr van E's impact measurements either.

 

[cottonweaver]

Prosecuting, Brown QC said:

He said the defence had tried to use to their advantage Ellie's previous injuries while in Butler's care.

Trying to use the 2007 abuse - sickening - as I am sure he was guilty of SBS then too. There is no depth this pair won't plumb in order to achieve their goal.

He said: 'Juries do not and should not engage in fanciful or speculative reasoning or entertain fanciful suggestions. That is not the task of a jury.'

That reminder is useful and would hope Judge W will reiterate that point - juries aren't allowed to speculate, just work with the evidence provided.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-trial-Ellie-Butler-murder.html#ixzz4B1QMlVwK
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Hopefully it's closing arguments tomorrow and the BBC Danny Shaw(?) is sent to cover it as he in particular is very comprehensive.

 

[cottonweaver]

I wonder how much this so called expert has been paid for coming out with rubbish and muddying the waters? Ellie was long dead when the paramedics arrived.

Well the link I posted said $12k per case, a few years back.

There's a video of her testifying in a US case on this page of thread 1. ( Let's just say she doesn't confer any gravitas in her delivery style!)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page64

 

[ColourPurple]

BIB I didn't know that about this kids' cartoonCP, that's interesting, what a shame Mr Brown didn't know either.

Agree, this pair make me sick, and angry.

Right at the outset the reports were that the DVD was stuck on the "menu page" and that PPig items were all around the room. I said back then, any parent who knew their child did dangerous copying would have removed the PP toys. However it sounded to me like one of them could have even dotted the PP toys around the room as part of their elaborate staging. ( I also thought this was even an excuse they had dreamed up before, to explain another injury, but hadn't used this excuse yet. It may be a stretch but I also previously wondered if that was why they bought a puppy - provides more cover stories in tripping "accidents". )

JG doesn't even "feel" anyway , is just as crafty as him, so could be her that did the room dressing!
Any mother, with a child dead by "accident" would have been bereft in court with the cartoon tune playing. In that situation, mothers would find it hard to even see children's TV again.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek, suggesting the prosecutor should put forward a counter Peppa pig argument as ridiculous as theirs. I think this must be the video. It says "mommy called the doctor" rather than the hospital .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aQZHLcwFIc

 

[cottonweaver]

Tell you what guys, I am almost tempted to write to this P.O.S Butler when he is transferred to prison, with a big photo of poor Ellie.

But it probably wouldn't get passed on would it? Anyone know?

 

[ColourPurple]

Wonder what brought this next rant on for him?
Maybe it was the cross x of Dr Janice O .

This is Dr J.O being crossed by an American prosecutor in an earlier case. ( From a thread 1 link)


http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/c...cle_7a631db0-66b4-11e2-8a43-001a4bcf887a.html

and here's the controversy about her doing autopsys in her own state and her cut & paste methods as a Defence expert - so that she actually got the method of delivery all wrong

Summed up my non expert opinion of her. She earns her living disagreeing with official findings and a very nice living that is too.

 

[ColourPurple]

No. Dead bodies do not bruise.

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That's what I thought, so if Ellie was dead by the time the ambulance came, and it seems that she was, then bruises can't have been from the resuscitation "bag" . Do we know if the paramedics even used such a bag?

 

[cottonweaver]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek, suggesting the prosecutor should put forward a counter Peppa pig argument as ridiculous as theirs. I think this must be the video. It says "mommy called the doctor" rather than the hospital .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aQZHLcwFIc

Cheers, just watched it. Never seen any of the cartoons before. Should really have checked it out before now.
How bizarre that a child who had had a great number of supposedly innocent head injuries/"accidents" would be allowed to singalong with a rhyme like that. So how strange that they used this on the 28th.
Was Millie the dog unavailable as a trip hazard that day? I suppose the scenario wouldn't work for BB this time around?

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes, we all went back & forth on that ref to concrete as we couldn't establish the bedroom floor construction nor did we get any reference in the forensics reports nor Dr van E's impact measurements either.

It looks like they were in a council flat or maisonette, if it was anything like the flat I lived in when my eldest was a toddler, then the floor may be concrete underneath (rather than floorboards) but on top of that there's those lino type floor tiles and you then put underlay and carpet on top of that. Even with a very thin foam backed carpet without underlay, I can't imagine any situation where you would fracture your skull or get a blunt force injury from falling onto it.Even a fall onto the bare lino tiles wouldn't cause that kind of injury.