GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Tortoise]

Thank you so much Michelle, you must be exhausted!

 

[ColourPurple]

I await part 2 ! However I know I sound vindictive but I really really hope both have a terrible time in prison! I think JG will as one she is not used to it and 2 women in prison are especially nasty to ladies involved in deaths of children. Holloway is not a nice place!! She will have a tough time although I am sure she will allege suicide and place herself on the medical wing !

I reckon she will get into a relationship with a female version of BB, who will take her under her wing and protect her from any threats.

 

[Tortoise]

I will look again on the thread but a reported link I read said he was shouting about an appeal and that the jury should watch you tube etc. The newspaper report said what you tube showed and that the jury had not see this and it had been illegally put up or wthef. I will find it u less anyone else k owe immediately the source ?

I have just looked for it and found an article referencing it, although I hadn't seen mention of it in the thread today. Thanks jog.

[FONT=&quot][ start quote] The Ellie Butler murder trial almost collapsed when a video of police interviewing her younger sibling was leaked online.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It emerged on Youtube at a critical moment - the day after the jury retired at the end of seven weeks of evidence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The video had not been shown during the trial in a bid to shield the vulnerable child from more harm.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But in the online post, the youngster, who is now in care, was clearly identified, in breach of judge's strict orders in the High Court and the Old Bailey.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the heavily edited clip, it was claimed that the child backed up Butler's story about Ellie dying in an accidental fall while jumping up and down with Peppa Pig on the television.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The video had been viewed more than 200 times and had been posted on Twitter by a recently signed-up user with 17 followers before it was removed.[end quote]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ellie-butler-murder-trial-collapsed-8248596[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]"Having found Ben Butler guilty, the defendant loudly protested his innocence and told jurors: "My daughter is jumping - go to YouTube and look for yourself."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]As evidence in a criminal trial, the ABE - achieving best evidence - interview would only have been accessible to a small number of people, including the police, prosecution and defence."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ellie-butler-murder-trial-collapsed-8248596

Or perhaps, a female defendant allowed to walk about in the courtroom?? If BB knew about it, it was JG - not a member of the legal teams or police[/FONT]

 

[Gigi-G]

Hi Jog, you know no-one is going to shout you down on here re any feelings like that. ^

You know what though I think he will have a tough time in prison too.
He has little control, he hates being humiliated ( or so he says) , this is a proper stretch and he is a CHILD KILLER, this is not the type of crime he went in for in the last convictions.
Will he be on the "nonces wing" again? Presumably. He hates that, so that will ratchet up the pressure and he'll maybe lash out at the wrong person.

Previously he must have always had a release date near on the horizon. Not this time. Last time he must have played the system to some extent, now he has lost, that will sink in, he no longer has any control.
She will write him weekly and he will make her life hell by blaming her and not responding. His lawyer will drop him soon.

He already has a poor record for aggression to prison staff but there will be some tough nuts inside who will soon know he is coming and he will be taunted from the first night. Presume he's back in Belmarsh tonight.... they'll be catcalling in the dark already.

Yes he will be on the 'secure wing' 'nonces' he probably hated being on it as he doesn't think he's a 'nonce'. The fact that any offence concerning under 16s. Is party to 'the safe wing' for safety reasons. As he didn't sexually abuse a child. He thinks he shouldn't be there. But no one like a child abuser woman beater they are magnets to the hardened guys in there in need of some action. (Fistycuffs) n BB might be all that. N beat women. He might not be all that in there. I'm assuming he's staying at Belmarsh.

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[Gigi-G]

I reckon she will get into a relationship with a female version of BB, who will take her under her wing and protect her from any threats.

Ahhhh like Shauna Hoare in Becky Watts case. She's now loved up with a girl inside. And Nathan Matthews is bezzie friends with 'the crossbow killer' can't remember his name 😩

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[Gigi-G]

I have just looked for it and found an article referencing it, although I hadn't seen mention of it in the thread today. Thanks jog.

[FONT=&quot][ start quote] The Ellie Butler murder trial almost collapsed when a video of police interviewing her younger sibling was leaked online.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It emerged on Youtube at a critical moment - the day after the jury retired at the end of seven weeks of evidence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The video had not been shown during the trial in a bid to shield the vulnerable child from more harm.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But in the online post, the youngster, who is now in care, was clearly identified, in breach of judge's strict orders in the High Court and the Old Bailey.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the heavily edited clip, it was claimed that the child backed up Butler's story about Ellie dying in an accidental fall while jumping up and down with Peppa Pig on the television.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The video had been viewed more than 200 times and had been posted on Twitter by a recently signed-up user with 17 followers before it was removed.[end quote]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ellie-butler-murder-trial-collapsed-8248596[/FONT]

And thank you WS again. Even though we didn't get a mention. Lol

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[cottonweaver]

That's horrendous. No wonder she was wetting herself. She was scared deadstraight. She was lied to. And all she wanted was 'her' bed, her Grampy n nanny n her home. She knew nothing else. She knew of JG BB. but probably thought they were just family. In a child's understanding her here and now. Would be her norm. And where she felt 'safe'

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So bad Gigi, it makes me cry.
Human nature - all of us want to save the defenceless.
I know it sounds like a cliche, but she really was let down, even the system was denying her welfare by this unwillingness to listen to a child.

it's clear in the report that there was conflict between the Gps & S4C as they were not listening to ANYONE

here's a bit more GF/GM are codes for gps.

"Mr GF and Mrs GM conveyed their worries to the head teacher at Child D’s school, who in turn discussed the grandparents’ concerns with S4C on their behalf.

Alongside the concerns expressed by the school regarding Child D’s feelings about the move and the proposed handover at the school, the grandparents were surprised that there was no clarity about matters such as the details of Child D’s routine, the readiness of the bedroom and favourite belongings to be taken to the new home.

A number of the contentions made by the grandparents are contradicted by S4C who were involved in the detailed management of Child D’s move. However Mr GF and

Mrs GM tried hard to participate in discussions and meetings about tensions and difficult relationships in their family in order to help Child D’s transition. Two days before the move Mr GF and Mrs GM took Child D for a routine monitoring appointment with the Consultant Paediatrician and told her about the move (she had not been informed from any other source). She was gravely concerned not only at the planned move but also that Child D seemed to be behaving out of character- wasn’t smiling or wanting to draw pictures- and so she contacted S4C to make her views known. The grandparents also commented that at a similar time Child D’s ophthalmologist had commented that Child D’s sight was “down” and that the child seemed unhappy”.

However despite these various expressed concerns the move went ahead on 09 November 2012 with the grandparents taking Child D to school as usual, saying goodbye to their grandchild there and Mr F and Ms M collecting Child D from school in the afternoon. Both the school and S4C have commended the grandparents for the exemplary way in which they handled this event.

 

[Gigi-G]

Everything has just EXPLODED...
It's like WOAH wth. I knew there'd be more to the case but. I am deeply saddened about the way Ellie was orchestrated.

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[Gigi-G]

So bad Gigi, it makes me cry.
Human nature - all of us want to save the defenceless.
I know it sounds like a cliche, but she really was let down, even the system was denying her welfare by this unwillingness to listen to a child.

it's clear in the report that there was conflict between the Gps & S4C as they were not listening to ANYONE

here's a bit more GF/GM are codes for gps.

All the years of love and security. I just can't get my head around it. Well yes I can. Freakin departments with too much inane paperwork to fill in. Instead of the focus being on the child in this case Ellie!

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[Tillymint]

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/r-v-butler-gray-sentencing.pdf

Many thanks!

 

[Gigi-G]

Could be either or both I guess but it did make me wonder if maybe some of the injuries were self inflicted rather than being from BB. Being in hospitla also kept her away from BB. I can't work out why she took the younger daughter to hospital with her and left Ellie with him... ah actually maybe I can. Maybe Ellie was injured too and was not in a fit state to be seen in public and would have aroused the suspicion of medical staff.

Munchausen Syndrome is pricking at my head..

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[cottonweaver]

yes, they had their targets and their action plan and they were going to deliver the plan for Ellie.

Michelle, correct, she never paid back that cash from the benefit fraud.
She stroked his face! He kissed her hand- uke: And the earlier high-fiving - what a spectacle. They actually enjoyed some of this attention. Well the spotlight's off now. As Tilly said, doors shut, turn of the lights.

ex gf HH said he would revert to a baby muttering "this isn't me" after giving her a beating. ( He was doing it on the tiny police interview clip too)

one of the old links to the fraud

http://www.24dash.com/news/local_go...gner-narrowly-escapes-jail-over-benefit-fraud

 

[cottonweaver]

snippets from irish Independent

JG attended a Performing Arts school

Accomplished liar Gray was a graduate of the famous Brit School in Croydon which produced the likes of Amy Winehouse, Leona Lewis and Adele.

As a teenager, she had minor roles in EastEnders, The Bill and Silent Witness before carving out a career as a graphic designer.

She gave the performance of her life as she acted out the horror of finding her daughter collapsed in her bedroom in a shocking 999 call.

Foul-mouthed Everton football fan Butler was unable to control his "volcanic" temper - even in front of jurors.

Rejected by his biological father, he was brought up in Cambridgeshire by his mother and stepfather who, he said, "rowed a lot".

After they divorced, Butler, who had one brother, moved back to London at the age of 13.
He had a succession of unskilled jobs as a car salesman and removal man as well as several brushes with the law.

Dame Mary Claire Hogg, 69, is the daughter of of Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone, and his wife, Mary Evelyn Martin.

Her brother is Douglas Hogg, 3rd Viscount Hailsham, a former Tory Cabinet minister and barrister.

Educated at the well-to-do St Paul's Girls' School, she became a QC in 1989 and was appointed a High Court judge in 1995 where she sat in the Family Division.

The mother of two grown-up children is married to financial consultant and unsuccessful Tory candidate Eric Koop

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...e-butler-murdered-by-her-father-34820028.html

 

[michelle230]

I think (in my own humble opinion of course) that the judge gave too much leniency to JG that she was beholden to a “bad choice” (his words) of man and she had paid a heavy price for her loyalty. He also allowed her limited credit for her changed guilty plea. This was asked to be considered by her defence counsel, who also made a big deal out of how much her loyalty to BB had cost her and that now the truth was out, her part, so to speak, could now be viewed differently i.e. everything she did/lied about etc was done for him. He was the real “villain” (inferred). When the judge sentenced her, the two charges were deemed as separate and therefore the sentences would run consecutively, not concurrently. He said that she had lied to everyone, to the police, the jury, the court, that she had colluded with BB throughout.
It was interesting to note that whilst she consoled him throughout when the judge was dealing with him, the same could absolutely not be said about him of her. She was on her own. He barely listened when it was her turn.
Yes there was calling out – the expected denials, they will fight to clear their names…they will appeal..the truth will come out etc, but it sounded weak as if they were exhausted and defeated. It was creepy and unnerving to see them sobbing, to see him shocked and horrified and deflated with all the fight knocked out of him. That finally, his long, brutal, unrestrained violent life had caught up with him. It was unnerving to see these arrogant, aggressive bullies brought to their knees. They were definitely emotional. After all they have fought long and hard and intensively for years. They must be exhausted.
But of course, never let their emotion be mistaken for remorse for there is none.
That poor child. That terrified, little girl. And those grandparents who loved her, who used up their life savings (running out at a crucial stage in their fight to keep her), who knew, who saw with their own eyes what was being done to her and what she was suffering. And having nowhere to turn.
Can you imagine the helplessness they felt?
I think BB and JG will be put on suicide watch. And I think when the reality slowly takes hold, and when their appeal is swiftly denied….then maybe then…...they will have a long time to reflect on their crimes against their little girl and how they are truly despised by everyone.

 

[Gigi-G]

Currently looking over a tragedy in USA. few weeks back. An officer in local Police Squad. His 8 year old had been in a nasty accident. Rushed to hospital n was put in an induced coma.
It's a strange one. Cuz I'm sure it was something to do with the family's Suv.
Anyways few days later the hospital started waking the lad up. And he's fine now.
Couple days ago the mom was going berserk. Calling out for her (either 2 or) 3 years old twins. Calling neighbours. Who rushed round to help in the search. Mom had taken a nap. Not sure if was meant to. But it was while she was napping the twins went missing. Anyways. Searches went on around the neighbourhood park stores play areas etc.. when someone opened the door on the suv. There were the twins. Both had passed away. Due to the heat in there I'm assuming. Waiting on coroners report.
It's heartbreaking

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[Tortoise]

I'd like to know how the family court judge (Justice King?) sitting in 2014 to decide on Ellie's sibling's care order, decided that BB had hit Ellie with the table leg. a) no table leg was mentioned in the trial as far as I know and b) how can she make that ruling at a time when he is technically innocent until proven guilty?

Perhaps it's the way it has been reported - maybe she said something like on the balance of probabilities?

 

[Tillymint]

I've been thinking about her desire to stay in hospital. Where else would she have no responsibility, be cared for and checked, given drugs to take the edge off? Maybe it was a safe place away from life, with sympathy and interest coming her way. The drama of a real illness without all the shouting?

 

[Tortoise]

I think (in my own humble opinion of course) that the judge gave too much leniency to JG that she was beholden to a “bad choice” (his words) of man and she had paid a heavy price for her loyalty. He also allowed her limited credit for her changed guilty plea. This was asked to be considered by her defence counsel, who also made a big deal out of how much her loyalty to BB had cost her and that now the truth was out, her part, so to speak, could now be viewed differently i.e. everything she did/lied about etc was done for him. He was the real “villain” (inferred). When the judge sentenced her, the two charges were deemed as separate and therefore the sentences would run consecutively, not concurrently. He said that she had lied to everyone, to the police, the jury, the court, that she had colluded with BB throughout.
It was interesting to note that whilst she consoled him throughout when the judge was dealing with him, the same could absolutely not be said about him of her. She was on her own. He barely listened when it was her turn.
Yes there was calling out – the expected denials, they will fight to clear their names…they will appeal..the truth will come out etc, but it sounded weak as if they were exhausted and defeated. It was creepy and unnerving to see them sobbing, to see him shocked and horrified and deflated with all the fight knocked out of him. That finally, his long, brutal, unrestrained violent life had caught up with him. It was unnerving to see these arrogant, aggressive bullies brought to their knees. They were definitely emotional. After all they have fought long and hard and intensively for years. They must be exhausted.
But of course, never let their emotion be mistaken for remorse for there is none.
That poor child. That terrified, little girl. And those grandparents who loved her, who used up their life savings (running out at a crucial stage in their fight to keep her), who knew, who saw with their own eyes what was being done to her and what she was suffering. And having nowhere to turn.
Can you imagine the helplessness they felt?
I think BB and JG will be put on suicide watch. And I think when the reality slowly takes hold, and when their appeal is swiftly denied….then maybe then…...they will have a long time to reflect on their crimes against their little girl and how they are truly despised by everyone.

Thanks again.

Was the security upped? did he make any aggressive moves and was he handcuffed?

and how did JG react (if at all and if you could tell) to the news of her mum's death?

 

[Gigi-G]

I'd like to know how the family court judge (Justice King?) sitting in 2014 to decide on Ellie's sibling's care order, decided that BB had hit Ellie with the table leg. a) no table leg was mentioned in the trial as far as I know and b) how can she make that ruling at a time when he is technically innocent until proven guilty?

Perhaps it's the way it has been reported - maybe she said something like on the balance of probabilities?

Possibly it's her translation into the 'blunt force trauma' and the chair/table she used frequently. As you say. Law of probabilities.

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